Ambush Units Should Flip Over at the End of the Round (if they haven't already)

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Bondonkadonk;n10755561 said:
Even without abilities though, your opponent still has to guess powers and put themselves at a possible disadvantage for the sake of an ambush card that's not interact-able aside from locks. Passing against ambushes can already be a risk if you're not a clear 14points ahead. I think it's just down to opinions here; I like the concept of ambush cards, and I don't mind how they play now, but for me I'd be extremely frustrated to see several ambushes on the board, wanting to pass, and having no clue whether that's 5str sitting there or 20. The proposed idea just doesn't feel like a fun mechanic for me. At least with Toruviel you KNOW there's the possibility it's her, you know she's going to be 14 (or maybe a few more if there's buff cards) and you can plan around that, there's strategy in that. If everything was a flip on pass, it'd be much harder to work around and I personally think it'd feel a lot more like guess work, especially if they're mixed with hand buffing cards.

For example today in casual mode I've seen a 28 point Toruviel lol
 
Bondonkadonk;n10755561 said:
Even without abilities though, your opponent still has to guess powers and put themselves at a possible disadvantage for the sake of an ambush card that's not interact-able aside from locks. Passing against ambushes can already be a risk if you're not a clear 14points ahead. I think it's just down to opinions here; I like the concept of ambush cards, and I don't mind how they play now, but for me I'd be extremely frustrated to see several ambushes on the board, wanting to pass, and having no clue whether that's 5str sitting there or 20. The proposed idea just doesn't feel like a fun mechanic for me. At least with Toruviel you KNOW there's the possibility it's her, you know she's going to be 14 (or maybe a few more if there's buff cards) and you can plan around that, there's strategy in that. If everything was a flip on pass, it'd be much harder to work around and I personally think it'd feel a lot more like guess work, especially if they're mixed with hand buffing cards.

I get that it seems like it would be frustrating, but I feel like you're imagining a board full of non-interactive cards, when in reality, aside from Toruviel (And possibly gold Morenn), everything else flips after 2 turns or sooner. As a result, this change would only affect one or two cards per match max probably? And again, yes you can interact with it with locks or, you know, that Roche card. Or you can choose to not try to interact with and try to count possible buffs instead, aka think, guess, gamble. I can't interact with NG machines shooting up my cards from hand, either. Not like, at all, not with locks, not with nukes, not with strong language. Yet the things are in there. But we can't have a 6-point gold flip at end of round.
 
HenryGrosmont;n10755141 said:
If we're going to use your analogy, then it's more of a NR smelled the ambush and took another route. So, the ambush failed.

Well...yeah. And that's why the ST Ambush unit's ability failed. Gwent is played on a battlefield, and the NR left that battlefield, hence lost. The analogy may not be that satisfactory after all, but the point is that playing a card and not getting its Power value is unfair and stupid. The cards are made to be played, and it is to be made sure that each card is equally playable.
 
for me, the fact that ambush cards may not flip over is part of the skill element- both playing them and playing against them. I'd prefer to just have the reward for playing them correctly and flipping be higher rather than just having auto flip with no counter beyond lock or the recent nr roche

edit: and there need to be a few more elves that flip on turn pass, just slightly different distribution of points to toruvial
 
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iamthedave;n10755191 said:
OP? A 6 pt gold that counters a spell, or a 10 pt vanilla gold? An auto-include? In the faction with some of the absolute strongest golds in the game? Methinks you protest too much. She'd still be competing with Ithlinne (with Alzur's Thunder a 20pt gold), Aglais, both Isengrims, Schirru, and Iorveth before we even factor in neutral golds like Triss: Telekinesis. Every one of these cards is practically guaranteed 20pt value. Morenn Forest Child has to high roll the spell she counters to come even CLOSE to that level of value.

She'd go from 'literally never used' to 'sometimes used', I guarantee she wouldn't be used in every ST deck.
A 12 point card that can be buffed and fears no repercussions in the short third round? Sign me up!
G4merY;n10755971 said:
Well...yeah. And that's why the ST Ambush unit's ability failed. Gwent is played on a battlefield, and the NR left that battlefield, hence lost. The analogy may not be that satisfactory after all, but the point is that playing a card and not getting its Power value is unfair and stupid. The cards are made to be played, and it is to be made sure that each card is equally playable.
Avoiding an ambush isn't leaving the battlefield. I have no idea, where you got this impression. But we're speaking in your terms, if this is a battle, there are other units on Scoia side that are engaged in it. And if ambushing part of the army fails, that's on them.
 
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Barracuda88;n10755841 said:
I get that it seems like it would be frustrating, but I feel like you're imagining a board full of non-interactive cards, when in reality, aside from Toruviel (And possibly gold Morenn), everything else flips after 2 turns or sooner. As a result, this change would only affect one or two cards per match max probably? And again, yes you can interact with it with locks or, you know, that Roche card. Or you can choose to not try to interact with and try to count possible buffs instead, aka think, guess, gamble. I can't interact with NG machines shooting up my cards from hand, either. Not like, at all, not with locks, not with nukes, not with strong language. Yet the things are in there. But we can't have a 6-point gold flip at end of round.

Yeah, fair point. I guess part of it is things like sappers are a low tempo play by design, and I don't really like the concept of, let's say, placing one down for 0 points, your opponent passing, then that flips to give you 11 extra. There's no punishment for playing it if it does that. Perhaps flipping on round end could work, but only if there was a rework on cards like sapper in the first place. I mean, sapper is super bad anyway. xD
 
HenryGrosmont;n10756301 said:
Avoiding an ambush isn't leaving the battlefield. I have no idea, where you got this impression. But we're speaking in your terms, if this is a battle, there are other units on Scoia side that are engaged in it. And if ambushing part of the army fails, that's on them.
You avoid the ambush so it fails my attack (ability). It doesn't removes my existence, however? Anyways, let's agree to disagree for now.
 
Well I certainly agree about the zero tempo. Having Ambush units flip prematurely when some condition is met might limit future design space somewhat though. Nobody wants to see three face-down cards on their opposing side.
Why not keep them as is and give them, oh I don't know, 7 strength until they flip? Maybe make them immune. That way you still get a sigificant advantage when the conditions are met, but you're not stuck with nothing when they aren't.
 
HenryGrosmont;n10756301 said:
A 12 point card that can be buffed and fears no repercussions in the short third round? Sign me up!

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Ciri: Nova will quake in fear at your 10pt gold finisher.

What would you suggest to make the card even worth considering for deckbuilding? Because as it stands she's utterly useless and one of the worst golds in GWENT.
 
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iamthedave;n10760551 said:
Ciri: Nova will quake in fear at your 10pt gold finisher.

What would you suggest to make the card even worth considering for deckbuilding? Because as it stands she's utterly useless and one of the worst golds in GWENT.

Ciri Nova demands, as feeble as that demand is, a certain sacrifice. And she's easily removed with Shirru or whatever the other highest unit removal is. Your proposed card will usually be around 13-14. Not too easy... Oh, wait... impossible to Scorch and prevent from flipping over. Guaranteed points.

As for how I see her improved? First and foremost, making her playable with Isengrim. After that, I don't know, never gave it a long thought. But something along doing a certain damage? Again, never thought about it seriously.
 
HenryGrosmont;n10761091 said:
Ciri Nova demands, as feeble as that demand is, a certain sacrifice. And she's easily removed with Shirru or whatever the other highest unit removal is. Your proposed card will usually be around 13-14. Not too easy... Oh, wait... impossible to Scorch and prevent from flipping over. Guaranteed points.

As for how I see her improved? First and foremost, making her playable with Isengrim. After that, I don't know, never gave it a long thought. But something along doing a certain damage? Again, never thought about it seriously.

Do so. She's actually an interesting card, and it's the sort of design we ought to incentivise. She definitely needs to be playable with Isengrim though.
 
I should add, that part of the reason why I propose her buff-self if she doesn't spell eat is that she is the game's one and only gold ambush card, and gold cards are supposed to be better than silvers. Morenn: Forest Child is currently worse than silver Morenn and arguably the worst ambush card out of the entire lot because her body is so low.

Despite what some posters claim on these boards, being gold actually does mean something, and if you want a gold ambush card to be even playable it has to be quite powerful indeed. In her current iteration Morenn: FC is bricked in a short round 3 and bricked in round 1 as well unless you get extremely lucky and/or open with a swapped wardancer to accompany her. Nobody is going to play her in those conditions, because there's too many variables for you to get outplayed, and very little benefit if the opponent just plays into the card and takes his chances.

And of course, there are STILL some decks that use no actual special cards (consume monsters, for example, or at most it uses one).
 
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