An argument that story fixes/augmentations should take priority over expansions, even from a business POV

[PeliGrietzer]

An argument that story fixes/augmentations should take priority over expansions, even from a business POV

[Cross posted on Reddit]

First of all, it goes without saying that I'm super grateful to CDPR for the 100 hours of sheer joy they gave me with The Witcher 3. This being said, though, there's an issue that keeps coming up in the most active threads of this sub-forum that I think could benefit from a direct discussion: CDPR devs keep hinting that they'd love to do Enhanced Edition type improvements to some heavily discussed flaws of the story/main quest, but that they can't afford to cause developing the expansions takes financial priority. This post is gonna argue that they can't afford not to do EE stuff, because the weak points of this otherwise amazing game are exactly everything that has to be a strong point in a game if you hope to sell expansions of the type that CDPR are working on.

The two expansions CDPR are putting all their Withcery resources into are both mega-side-quests, rather than mini-sequels or standalone mini-campaigns. This means, naturally, that players that completed Witcher 3's main quest will only buy the expansions if they either plan on playing the expansions during post-main-quest play, or plan on playing the expansions during a new run-through of the main quest. That's well and good, except there's a consensus (CDPR folks on message boards included) that The Witcher 3 has major storyline and world-state problems that don't stop the game from being great but do result in everybody hating post-main-quest play and in low player motivation to replay the main quest. (Only moderately low for 2nd replay, maybe, but extremely low for 3rd.)


Both issues have been heavily discussed, but let's review them quickly side by side:


1) Almost all players feel that post-main-quest play is depressing, even if there are amazing side-quests left to do. This aversion to post-main-quest-play has two main reasons: a) You're operating in an empty world where all the characters whose presence framed the game-play as a personal, emotional experience are gone. b) You're operating in a broken world-state -- not because it's a pre-epilogue or pre-last-mission world-state, but because throughout act 3 your actions made no difference for the in-game world state when they're logically supposed to ('Reasons of State'), and now that you're not rushing off to the last mission you have time to notice this. Did these problems ruin my experience of The Witcher 3? No, not at all. But am I interested in playing a mega-side-quest in post-main-quest play, the way that post-main-quest play operates right now? Nop.


2) Almost all players feel that the replay value of the main quest (/associated side-quests) is relatively low or very low. Three reasons: a) Most players feel that while the three in-game epilogues are beautiful, they're short enough that if you got an epilogue you're happy with you aren't going to be motivated to do a 2nd or 3rd play-through to get to play the other epilogues. b) The '36 endings' (two minutes illustrated voice-over narration) are considered kind of laughable, so there's no motivation to do 2nd or 3rd play-through to experiment with different choices and their consequences. c) The in-game world's lack of responsiveness to your romance and political choices, like Triss v. Yen choice only changing five lines of dialogue and one cut-scene, or the Radovid plot-line not affecting anything in-game and not responding to any previous choices (e.g. your choice in 'Redania's Most Wanted' not affecting anything in your next interactions with Radovid or Phillippa AFAIK) makes you feel pretty cheated on a 2nd play-through. Did these flaws ruin my experience of The Witcher 3? Not really. But am I interested in playing a mega-side-quest as part of a new replay of the game's main quest, with the world-state's branching still so minimal/broken? Nop.


So, see the problem? The exact things that CDPR does not have plans to fix, cause you can only fix them with major augmentations and CDPR's Witchery resources are invested in developing the mega-side-quest paid expansions, are the things a game has to get right in order to make players who played through the main quest want to buy a mega-side-quest paid expansion. 'The Witcher 3' was obviously designed to make even the average or casual player play the main quest to completion (it literally has a 'Just The Story' mode), so if CDPR don't heavily invest in story/main-quest augmentations that make replays or post-main-quest play a good experience for players the expansions will have real no target audience.


tl;dr: If your game is amazing except for post-main-quest-play being a bad experience and the replay value of the main quest being low, you're gonna have to invest in fixing those problems before investing in paid expansions that are meant to be played in post-main-quest play or as part of a new replay of the main quest

 

[frozenkex]

Thing is the expansions are most likely already complete mostly, or at least writing, dialogue and voice overs are complete - they are efficient like that, so they don't need to bring back voice actors and directors back. So there you go. I really really would love if they augmented the interactions between your love interests and perhaps some other characters like zoltan and dandelion with new dialogue but that most likely won't happen. Unless CDPR commits to doing much more for the game than originally planned.

 

[Cropcrop]

I would much rather have NG+ and the expansions to solve the same issues (post-game depression and replay value)

 

[TheDespondentMind2]

I would also much rather have the new fixes instead of expansions right now.

 

[latios507]

Agreed. They need to patch few loopholes in the content, one of the areas would be the romance part.
it's so dull and the best part, you can't even find your lovers after completing the game

Post-game content is disappointing. I'd rather have them fix these content. We want to see our hard works bearing fruits

 

[Redemyr]

I already pre-orderered the game with the expansions pack so what they do won't affect my choice on that matter, that being I'd love for them to fixi what the community felt what lacking...

While they don't need this to do, I believe it would make for extremely good PR, one of the reasons I bought (actually it was a gift, but I still asked for it) Anyway one of the reasons I got the full package blindly was because of how they treated both their previous games, not only were they excellent games to begin with, but improved on them.

 

[Dude27]

Oh, pls not again.

I agree there are some plot holes that need to be fixed. Witcher 2 had an Enhanced edition which added some dialogues and cutscenes to help understand the main story.

DLCs are going to be sidequests, you can do them during or after main story, they won't influence it in any way.

 

[Mich-666]

I agree, I find it extremely hard to even play the game with my post-campaign save because just about every person I was made to care during main story is gone.
(just one note of encouragement - this is still great game. You know you did something right if people cares about them, right?)

But it's very clear that right now, the people DON'T WANT any expansions that extends sidequests, they just want aftersave that reflects their previous choices, at least to some degree. They want to be able to meet and have some little talk with those characters they cared about, at Kaer Morhen perhaps. Few little quests with their loved ones, perhaps. Better summary to the end of the game. It's not like there are tons of different options and world states to implement, you know, as main quest is actually more linear than Witcher 2 was.

Also, one more thing to consider is to add some life and more voiced lines, reactions and little dialogues to all those villages and towns so it wouldn't feel so empty outside of quests. Perhaps better (longer) one-liners would suffice. Or to each one, add one or three more people that would actually talk to you even after all those quests are done. Right now, just about every dialogue is tied to a quest and in effect those villages doesn't feel alive after everything is done while contrary should be true.

Even if upcoming DLC content is good, people are expecting it will continue their main story (which, sadly, isn't true for the first expansion but I really hope Toussaint area is all high-level post game. Because that's what people are really expecting). There sure will be massive disappointment if it turns out to be pre-end expansion.

So, please think it through and try make it that those changes takes priority over just about everything else. If anything CDPR should at least go into discussion about Witcher 3 future content at E3 to calm down the crowd and to give us an answer to all the frustration after completing main story.

 

[DODIDO]

agreed

 

[FunnyJim69]

UP

 

[xxRENEGADExx]

Extended cut +

 

[UndiscoveredAdv]

I feel really bad asking something like this from CDPR, because the game is so, phenomenally good; it's an absolute masterpiece! But that, I feel, is why I can agree with you (to some extent). The writing is so excellent, the characters so believable, the investment in the story so deep that any flaws in the Main Quest and post epilogue world come to prominence where they wouldn't necessarily in another game.

My personal areas for improvement lie with the ending, which I've discussed in another thread - but I don't think it's bad by any means, it's beautiful and very well done, but perhaps it doesn't have the substance and length that you'd expect from the end of a series - and the conclusion of 100s of hours of gameplay. To be honest though, I'm so blown away with this game, it feels greedy asking for more!

I'm really happy with what we have, so though it would be nice to see an extended or augmented main story, what we've been given is still brilliant and more than enough. Besides, something like that would be incredibly time-consuming and difficult to implement.

 

[EliHarel]

Likewise. I don't really care about the post-credits play, to be honest. I see it more as a bonus to the player and if it were up to me CDPR wouldn't spend the resources on it. What I would like, however, is some seriously enhanced edition focused almost entirely on main stories and major subplots as well as the politics. As a whole, TW3 was amazing, and I immensely enjoyed it. Some individual aspects, though, appear to be wildly inconsistent with the rest. The thing is that these individual aspects are arguably the most important - the main story, main characters, major subplots, etc. Many things there were no less than poorly handled, I believe. I just don't have an interest right now in more side-quests, no matter how polished they are, when the main ones require a lot of polish to be able to stand scrutiny for more than a few seconds.

Edit: Oh, and while I want this, I don't think that a good argument has been made that this is better from a business perspective. Pretty sure it's not. Those millions of copies TW3 sold? I'm not sure how many of the players are as analytical as the closer fans. I imagine most enjoyed the ride, and even if they felt some unease about certain aspects, they don't linger on them. When we're talking in millions, the internet is a difficult place to assess the impact certain things have. Even if vocal thousands want this, it doesn't mean it's better financially, because we don't know how many silent people are there who don't really care and would like more witchering in Toussaint.

 

[Dude27]

I agree, I find it extremely hard to even play the game with my post-campaign save because just about every person I was made to care during main story is gone.
(just one note of encouragement - this is still great game. You know you did something right if people cares about them, right?)

But it's very clear that right now, the people DON'T WANT any expansions that extends sidequests, they just want aftersave that reflects their previous choices, at least to some degree. They want to be able to meet and have some little talk with those characters they cared about, at Kaer Morhen perhaps. Few little quests with their loved ones, perhaps. Better summary to the end of the game. It's not like there are tons of different options and world states to implement, you know, as main quest is actually more linear than Witcher 2 was.

First, speak for yourself. No offense. Dont use "we" when you speak of your personal preferences.
Second:
-"They want to be able to meet and have some little talk with those characters they cared about, at Kaer Morhen perhaps"-
How do you expect to see those characters in Kaer Morhen if they are GONE? By the way, ending sliders explain where to. Definitely not Kaer Morhen.
Main story and characters is something that you can't change. It is a basic structure of any game, movie or novel. When it ends - it ends. There is such thing as Extended Cut - but it doesn't change the story, it expands it.
You are placed into world of W3 after ending, but its story has ended alongside with main characters moving on to their destinations. That proves my point. No one makes you to continue playing, if you feel you don't like playing in an empty world - start new playthrough, just like you would do in any other game, if you liked it.

 

[Mich-666]

First, speak for yourself. No offense. Dont use "we" when you speak of your personal preferences.
Second:
-"They want to be able to meet and have some little talk with those characters they cared about, at Kaer Morhen perhaps"-
How do you expect to see those characters in Kaer Morhen if they are GONE? By the way, ending sliders explain where to. Definitely not Kaer Morhen.
Main story and characters is something that you can't change. It is a basic structure of any game, movie or novel. When it ends - it ends.
You are placed into world of W3 after ending, but its story has ended alongside with main characters moving on to their destinations. That proves my point. No one makes you to continue playing, if you feel you don't like playing in an empty world - start new playthrough, just like you would do in any other game, if you liked it.

First, I wrote "right now" and I was talking about concensus most of the people on these forums have.
Second, if they are gone, they are gone. In that case, no need to put them in. That's precisely what consequences of your actions should be. And it would also put in incentive for another playthrough where they are alive.

 

[Dude27]

First, I wrote "right now" and I was talking about concensus most of the people on these forums have.
Second, if they are gone, they are gone. In that case, no need to put them in. That's precisely what consequences of your actions should be. And it would also put in incentive for another playthrough where they are alive.

By "gone", I mean not necessarily dead. Some might be dead, others are alive, but they are moved outside of Witcher 3 game world, to some distant countries.For example Triss moving to Kovir or Ciri to Nilfgaard. Those places aren't present in the game itself. You can google some maps of Witcher universe world and see how big it is and where those countries are. The game is just a small part of Witcher fantasy world

 

[Mich-666]

By "gone", I mean not necessarily dead. Some might be dead, others are alive, but they are moved outside of Witcher 3 game world, to some distant countries.For example Triss moving to Kovir or Ciri to Nilfgaard. Those places aren't present in the game itself. You can google some maps of Witcher universe world and see how big it is and where those countries are. The game is just a small part of Witcher fantasy world

Oh, now I see where you are going and it's pretty relevant concern. But I still think there are pretty few characters that would needed such treatment. Triss, Yen and maybe Ciri (who can be safely placed into Wyzima), that's not too much. Just about everyone else can be place somewhere in the existing world. But imagine how awesome would it be sail a ship and visit small mini-areas of Kovir, Nilfgaard, similiar to those in elven lands.

I know, I know... but even that, there is many low-cost workarounds if money is the problem. Remember, Ciri can traverse the worlds. Or they can simply use megascopes. I bet if devs wanted they could find the way pretty easily.

 

[maspingon]

[DB Edit] As you're speechless, here's a pony that's so much nicer than an insult.

 

[KingHochmeister]

While I do agree the game needs more content in the main story part and that it would be cool to have an EE or some kind to first to fix the imperfections in the main story , I doubt they would be able to focus on two things at the same time, it sucks, but if they decide to do an EE first, they would to re-schedule the development cycle for the expansions, re-schedule the voice acting sessions, basically re-schedule everything from scratch, and like @EliHarel said (hehe, Elihal ) the only people that are complaining about the imperfections of the last third act of the game are pretty much the most hardcore of fans, those who read the books or played the games or both and know the lore and how they missed opportunities with certain characters, so yeah, that is, unfortunately, a small minority of gamers that bought the game.

But I am not dismissing that they shouldn't do an EE eventually, they did so with their previous games and they would only gain more approval from the gaming industry if they decide to do it, but we should be realistic about our expectations as well, they have a plan and we can't really just jump and say: "Yo, CDPR, drop all what you are doing and fix this stuff!".

 

[Scholdarr.452]

In my opinion they should abolish the post-main-narrative free roaming altogether. It's just an unimmersive, pointless and unnecessary thing. Post-credits gameplay is incredibly gamey. And after all, you could have made everything before the end. So why the need to come back? TW3 is a story-driven game that should have a clear beginning and end.

Improve the main story and the enhance the visibility and feel of consequences and I'm happy.