An idea for a REDkit mod to combat outleveling...

[topeira]

An idea for a REDkit mod to combat outleveling...

I dont know if the REDkit will allow this kind of mod but it's a thought i had , since i am one of those ppl who prefer a constant challenge over outleveling everything and become a god.

The idea is to give HEALTH and DAMAGE OUTPUT buffs and penalties to enemies according to how far their level is from yours.
The farther the enemy from geralts level the bigger the buff\penalty. Here are some random numbers just to help me get my point across for example -
lets say geralt is level 20
enemies level 5 will get a 200% increase in damage output and health. enemies level 10 will get 100% buffs in these categories. enemies level 18 will get just 30% etc.
the closer the enemies is to YOUR level, the less buffs he needs.
Most enemies who are HIGHER than geralts level will get penalties to become manageable in a realistic fasion -
so enemies 5 levels above yours (say level 25) will get a 25% penalty to damage and health. enemies 10 levels above yours will get a 50% reduction penalty etc etc.
however monsters 10 levels or more above geralt will not get any penalty if they are large monsters. so chords or fiends or cyclops, for example, should remain really tough until geralt is almost at their level, so there IS a sense that you need to level up to defeat menacing monsters.

the balance of such mod should be that enemies 15 levels below you become much tougher but are still easier than equivalent enemies just 5 levels below you.
for example - a level 5 bandit with a huge buff should still remain somewhat easier than a level 15 bandit that gets a smaller buff.
as if level 5 bandit does 300 damage get a 200% increase and does 600 damage, and a bandit level 15 who does 500 will get a 40% increase to 700.

Anyone feels like this could be a nice way to make the game more manageable against high level enemies (so you can do most high level quests whenever you feel like it and not when the game allows you to) and more challenging even against low level quests?

god, i really want the redkit to come out soon...



EDIT:
apparently to do what i thought about i didnt need to redkit. i made a mod that "sort of" does what i suggested above:
http://www.nexusmods.com/witcher3/mods/258/?

 

[Lieste]

Why not just 'pivot' the whole difficult curve/levelling around some point (level 20 seems a reasonable basis, but YMMV). Getting rid of the difficulty 'cliff' and having a much gentler "slope", with the individual tough/weak opponents as small ripples above and below this essentially flat surface.

It reduces the 'weakness' of the early game, and the massive over-power play of the later game. How is Geralt "a world leading swordsman" ~ not necessarily the *best* but right up there among them ~ supposed to more than double in combat effectiveness in the first 7 levels (from my recorded stats during my current playthrough)?

Why is a level 3 "Royal Gryphon" so much weaker than a level 14 bandit? What is the purpose of a Witcher in a world where *every-single* town guard is significantly better at fighting than he is? Why does witcher armour go to 400+ but only really strong, powerful characters can use it, while at the start you can only match the feeble efforts of NPC armour at "around" 21-45.

None of this makes any sense, and the definitions are all over the place, with buffs and debuffs on top of base and per-level stat increases.

I'd significantly increase resistances and armour for most enemies, change strong attack to only add more damage, and change critical attacks to reduce resistances/bypass armour more than increase damage. (A 1000 armour reduction for all strong attacks is silly IMO). (Maybe have small amounts of longer term bleeding for all hits, with more on criticals as well with somewhat faster bleeding &/or longer durations with the skill, and with runes/sword bonuses (which should be more modest than the 'broad brush-stroke' boosts currently seen.

Making these sorts of changes would be a huge task, and one fraught with unforeseen complications, but it would vastly improve the "making sense" of the game, and I think would be more fun. (I experimented with a *very* bad sword (of the wrong type), with the bleeding special, and found the flow of fighting was much more pleasing... just killing stuff isn't enough, you also had to stay out of it's way until it stopped moving (wounds are generally reckoned to by "instantly incapacitating" if the wounded person becomes incapable of action within 30 seconds... very few indeed are actually *instant*)).

 

[MacCrusher]

A positive trend is Skill-Based Gameplay: Level scaling. So, basically levels will just offer access to gear/talent points/etc, but everything that you encounter scales to the pc's abilities. Often the best way to achieve this is by not creating a hit-point pinata difficulty modifier, but actually adding 'new skills' talents to the npc/monsters as well. So, the more advanced the players talent tree and gear; so to will npc and monsters talents improve..

This was done really well in Shadows of Mordor, when there were almost un-beatable bosses, with only one weakness to leverage, you were challenged differently with every encounter, your survive-ability skills are just as important as offensive skills. I modded skyrim to play this way and it played beautifully. Very dangerous to fight anything.

This will likely need to be modded, as there was never much interest from development for Skill-Based experience, but instead levels/stats and Heroics by Numbers.

 

[moonknightgog]

A positive trend is Skill-Based Gameplay: Level scaling. So, basically levels will just offer access to gear/talent points/etc, but everything that you encounter scales to the pc's abilities. Often the best way to achieve this is by not creating a hit-point pinata difficulty modifier, but actually adding 'new skills' talents to the npc/monsters as well. So, the more advanced the players talent tree and gear; so to will npc and monsters talents improve..

Level scaling? Really?

 

[MacCrusher]

well, you don't need levels at all for skill-based game play -- levels in general always leave a stale-arsed smell behind.

 

[Tuco]

well, you don't need levels at all for skill-based game play -- levels in general always leave a stale-arsed smell behind.

Which is why, even taking your point as a valid one, if anything getting rid of levels entirely would be a better solution than introducing some shitty level scaling.
Hell, I would get rid even of the item scaling system already in place.

I couldn't see anything but improvements from getting rid of the hundreds/thousands of generic pieces of equipment in the game and replacing them with few dozens of hand-crafted and hand-placed ones. I really don't need compulsive loot whoring. Give me a nice and useful item as reward at the right time (i.e. for exploring a well hidden place or completing an interesting quest) and it will mean a lot more to me than looting tons of "vendor trash" at any given moment.

 

[MacCrusher]

@Tuco, yeah, being a loot vacuum is getting -- dated. Just adding small variation to all the "hundreds/thousands" of items, so you can use anything effectively, wherever, whenever. I tend to prefer the typical junky fur kilts and rusty swords to all the shinny bling. Not a fan of loot-centric progress.

Level scaling is just how you repair a game that 'revolves' around levels -- Witcher 3, Skyrim .. ad nauseam. CPRG's only option is to add a bandaid, they'd never excavate the structural foundation of the game's core.."Levels always leave a stale- ..." If REDkit is capable, I'll look to modding true Skill-Based --No levels-- So, if you consistently use a talent successfully, Aard for example, the sign eventually gains a rank automatically. Each talent branch gains ability when used in combat, no need to fuss around in the UI, instead just play the game -- Heroics by Numbers is always a mistake. You'll begin to explore and use all the talents offered in the talent tree, even toy with your prey more often; honing your witcher skills; as should be.

So you wear lots of light armor -- eventually "Cat School Techniques" unlocks then eventually "Focus" unlocks. or Bear School then eventually Survival Instinct, etc. Talents gained you can equip in the talent tree. Equipping a talent speeds up the gains for that branch -- you can focus on a witcher school.

Items, encounters, mob, npc, quests have no level. Only an underlying development in witcher skills, when used, studied, refined... (why I'm exited about Star Citizen -- skill based, physics based).

Difficulty setting is managed by how fast you gain talents, so Story Only would mean you'll have more talents to succeed against environment, Death March would mean you rely on your own player skills with fewer in-game talents early on. Mob would still need to scale, talent wise, to keep things challenging, but you don't need levels. Unfortunately, compared to games like Shadows of Mordor or Skyrim, Wither 3 AI is sub-par, another can-o-worms in need of attention.

This is the age old argument of Quality vs Quantity, Henry Bergson on metaphysics, time and free will; or books like Zen in the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. .. etc. Quality as transcendent is the hardest to come by, quantity as progress is a mundane path.

 

[SolemnXII]

The farther the enemy from geralts level the bigger the buff\penalty.

It seems Lieste and others are on the right track.

The Witcher 3 game engine inherits the same lack of auto level scaling proximity for encounters as it's predecessors.
A feature like this would have to be coded by the developer (or freakishly talented modder that knows coding).
This is most likely the reason the 'suggested level' concept still remains in TW3.

It was interesting to discover no 'proxy' type of enemies in the Redkit for The Witcher 2.
I'm used to seeing various game engines that utilize both proxy and standard leveled AI.
A good example of using both types was Titan Quest released back in 2006 where it was implemented nicely (for a leveling based game).
Certain enemies would always be a certain level, others would scale for difficulty.

It is odd TW3 has scaling for equipment but not for enemy types which could have at least added more randomness.

 

[topeira]

I just created a mod that..."sort of" does what i suggested in the OP.

if anyone is interested:
http://www.nexusmods.com/witcher3/mods/258/?

 

[moonknightgog]

edit

 

[hohenfriedberg]

Which is why, even taking your point as a valid one, if anything getting rid of levels entirely would be a better solution than introducing some shitty level scaling.
Hell, I would get rid even of the item scaling system already in place.

I couldn't see anything but improvements from getting rid of the hundreds/thousands of generic pieces of equipment in the game and replacing them with few dozens of hand-crafted and hand-placed ones. I really don't need compulsive loot whoring. Give me a nice and useful item as reward at the right time (i.e. for exploring a well hidden place or completing an interesting quest) and it will mean a lot more to me than looting tons of "vendor trash" at any given moment.

I agree. I'd really like an optional game mode where there were no Levels/Leveling.
Progression through mainly skill points/ability unlocks would be sufficient for character progression, I guess.
Things like enemies w/ levels (which currently have corresponding 'zones' that make the game feel a bit MMO-y) and level-based restrictions for item would be be done away with, IMHO.

I also agree w/ the points regarding gear/loot.
So much trash (I don't remember how much cash I had in the end...but it was either close to, or over, 200k).
The amount of Legendaries & Magical loot puts settings like the Forgotten Realms to shame .
It's kinda 'immersion breaking' when a regional ruler gives you a sword that's been in his family for a very long time...only to see that it's no better, if not worse, than some of the random loot you picked up from a chest or something.
That and, IMHO, if you do away w/ levels (which also hopefully means no drastic changes in Geralt's HP and damage output as he progresses via just skills/abilities), there also shouldn't be a need for weapons & gear to be too drastically different, either (e.g., It should be entirely viable to finish the game w/ the starting gear in a level-free mode).

 

[razien]

much more complex things would be possible to do with redkit

 

[moonknightgog]

I just created a mod that..."sort of" does what i suggested in the OP.

if anyone is interested:
http://www.nexusmods.com/witcher3/mods/258/?

How the fair version works?
All enemies have the same stats?
Or it simply cut off all buff and debuff but level 30 enemies have still higher stats than Geralt?

 

[Richiesname]

Which is why, even taking your point as a valid one, if anything getting rid of levels entirely would be a better solution than introducing some shitty level scaling.
Hell, I would get rid even of the item scaling system already in place.

I couldn't see anything but improvements from getting rid of the hundreds/thousands of generic pieces of equipment in the game and replacing them with few dozens of hand-crafted and hand-placed ones. I really don't need compulsive loot whoring. Give me a nice and useful item as reward at the right time (i.e. for exploring a well hidden place or completing an interesting quest) and it will mean a lot more to me than looting tons of "vendor trash" at any given moment.

Wow - I agree with Tuco here. Unbelievable.

Plus, even in our current, pre-Redkit world, there is a really good combat re-balancing mod. I use it and it's made my Witcher 3 experience soooo much better. Just about everything combat/leveling has been re-done. Check it out: http://www.nexusmods.com/witcher3/mods/212/?

 

[Tuco]

Wow - I agree with Tuco here. Unbelievable.

Not sure what should be so unbelievable about it.
I have nothing but very sensible and well thought opinions to share.

 

[Richiesname]

Not sure what should be so unbelievable about it.
I have nothing but very sensible and well thought opinions to share.

I have no clever reply this time.