An Idea for a reveal rework

[Nelogis]

I have brainstormed a bit with the idea of making the reveal mechanic a more interactive, less frustrating and more consistent mechanic overall.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows the current problems of the mechanic but I will list them anyway

Problems and current Situation

- Heavily RNG focused: While Reveal always had a certain amount of RNG, the current form truly is the most random state it has ever been.
- Uninteractive: Getting your wincondition banished by a viper isn't really a great experience nor a display of skill by the player who pulled it off.
- Doesn't fit Nilfgaard as a whole: While this whole spying and revealing thing might be Nilfgaard-ish, to just forget about revealed cards, giving away your intel and not doing anything with it is not Nilfgaard-ish at all

Goals of the Rework

- Reduce the RNG: While one can reduce the RNG it is nigh impossible to fully take it away for how reveal works at it's core. You will always reveal a random card because if you could chose what to reveal then you wouldn't need to reveal it since you already know what it is.
- Increase Counterplay: Give the opponent a way to react to what reveal is doing. Viper-Witchers are a premium example of how NOT to use the reveal mechanic
- Give the mechanic a meaning fitting it's name: Revealing something and forgetting about it isn't really the brightest idea a tactician would have ey?

Without further ado, here are my changes

Game changes

Right clicking on a Deck will show how many and which cards are currently revealed plus their current strength and status (If it is Locked or not etc.)

Keyword reworks

Reveal: Show a card to both players, then put it face up back into the deck. A revealed card will be concealed when drawn.

New Keywords

Obscured: This unit cannot be targeted. Until next turn, on turn start, remove this status. If this unit takes damage from any source while Obscured, end Obscured.
Unveil: Turn a card face upwards.
Sabotage: If it's a unit, put it's base power to 4 and lock it, if it's an artifact or spell, put it in the graveyard

Note: So let's say you are playing against Skellige and just revealed an Olaf, asking yourself what the hell your enemy is doing. So now Olaf is revealed inside the enemies deck and you will see AS SOON as he draws the card that he drew Olaf BUT, when he puts the card in his hand it will conceal itself again. So in other words, you will know that he drew it but wont be able to tell if he mulliganned it or discarded it or whatever. This gives reveal the sense of having an upper hand on the opponent without literally knowing every card in his hand like in Open Beta. Also here is potential for huge mind games.
Reveal will ALWAYS be connected to revealing a card in a deck.

Obscure is here to give the opponent one more turn to react to a powerful effect without reducing a cards reliability too much. You will see what I mean exactly upon seeing the reworked cards.

Unveil will be the most powerful form of revealing something, only accessible through very strong effects and high provisioned gold cards. This mechanic is like the old reveal, revealing something in the opponents hand.

Reworked Cards (Bronze)

Dearlan Soldier (3S/5P):
Summon this unit from your deck when there are 4 or more revealed or unveiled cards

Deitwhen Arbalest (3S/6P):
Deploy: Deal 2 damage to a unit
Cooldown 3: Repeat the deploy ability, whenever you reveal or unveil a card, reduce the cooldown by 1

Viper Witcher (4S/5P):
Deploy: Reveal a random enemy unit

Mangonel (4S/5P):
Whenever you reveal or unveil a card, deal 1 damage to a random enemy unit

Recruit (4S/4P):
Deploy: Reveal a card from your deck

Standard Bearer (3S/6P):
Deploy: Buff a unit by the amount of revealed or unveiled cards
Whenever you reveal this card, buff a random friendly unit by 1

Spotter (3S/5P):
Deploy: Swap this units strength with a revealed one

Reworked Cards (Gold)

Vattier de Rideaux (3S/10P):
Deploy: Reveal 2 random enemy cards
Obscured
Cooldown 2 (1 time use): Unveil a card from your opponents hand

Xarthisius (4S/8P):
Deploy: Move a revealed card to the bottom of the owners deck and put a card from your deck to the top of the deck

Auckes (4S/7P):
Deploy: Lock a unit, if Serrit is in your hand, Lock a revealed unit too and damage it by 2

Letho of Gulet (4S/10P):
Deploy: Sabotage a revealed card
Obscured
Cooldown 2 (1 time use): Sabotage a revealed or unveiled card

Cantarella (3S/9P):
Deploy: Reveal a random enemy card
Obscured
Cooldown 2 (1 time use): Play a revealed card

Traheaern var Udyffir (6S/8P):
Deploy: Reveal up to 2 cards from your deck then reveal (the amount you revealed in your deck) random enemy cards

Sweers (3S/8P):
Deploy: Deal 1 damage, increase this damage by 1 for every card you have revealed or unveiled this game

Fringilla Vigo (4S/10P):
Deploy: Reveal a special card from your deck
Order: Summon a copy of a revealed special card and play it

Imperial Golem (2S/7P):
Deploy: Buff this unit by the amount of cards you have revealed or unveiled this game

Leader Rework

Morvran Voorhis (3 mulligans):
Unveil a card in your opponents hand (2 charges)

Usuper (1 mulligan):
Sabotage a revealed or unveiled card, cooldown 1 (2 charges)

Final Notes

So that was my rework Idea.
As you see, reveal still gives you intel on what you opponent might have in hand and with that, it gives you an upper hand in battle. Not only that but it fits Nilfgaard better to use the intel they gained and plan accordingly (like sabotaging revealed cards that would act as "backup" in battle)
I also removed really frustrating cards like Traheaern (fucking hell that name) and Usuper which basically act as big "fuck you's" whenever they hit something good. Which leads to really frustrating experiences for the enemy because they might remove game winning synergies without the enemy being able to do anything about it (Hi Lemmens).

While yes, Usuper can still ruin a win condition without the enemy being able to do anything about it but he will need to get a little luckier this way and can only sabotage up to 2 cards. Also the lock from the sabotaged units can be removed if they are an engine so there is that.

What do you think? I'm open for all feedback and discussions!

 

[_Kili_]

I didn't read every single card you suggested, but I like the idea of adding more tags.
A huge problem of Gwent is that, at its core, it is a rather simplistic game. It doesn't have a mana/hp system like other games, and you can only play one card per turn.
This in turn makes it necessary for the cards themselves to be more complex (imagine a simple "draw 2 cards" card in Gwent).
More tags like you propose seem the best idea to achieve that. Like, why can't we get something like a "hexproof" tag?
Or make an "ethereal" tag, so a card is only targettable by spells. Boom, ghost archetype there we go.

 

[Nelogis]

I didn't read every single card you suggested, but I like the idea of adding more tags.
A huge problem of Gwent is that, at its core, it is a rather simplistic game. It doesn't have a mana/hp system like other games, and you can only play one card per turn.
This in turn makes it necessary for the cards themselves to be more complex (imagine a simple "draw 2 cards" card in Gwent).
More tags like you propose seem the best idea to achieve that. Like, why can't we get something like a "hexproof" tag?
Or make an "ethereal" tag, so a card is only targettable by spells. Boom, ghost archetype there we go.

While I thank you for the positive feedback, the reworked cards are the things that, in the end, tell if the mechanic is good or not.

When it comes to your idea I agree but also disagree.
At it's core, Gwent really is a simple game, 1 card per turn, the guy with the more points wins the round and there are 3 rounds.

Now overflooding the game with tags also has negative effect. You can add tags to then further expand then in future expansions but adding tags left and right without a clear path isn't the way IMO

The ones I added can be further used in different classes and future cards. Like obscure would also be a ST thing, sabotage could be used by ST too or any other faction that likes to operate in the shadows.

The problem with tags like "hexproof" or "ethereal" is that the game will become like rock-paper-scissors.

When you don't have much spells then what are you going to do against a hexproof ghost deck?
What are you going to do when you rely on wounding the enemy through traditional means (like a greatsword deck).

We would head into a state where the games outcome would be decided at the start and you might es well just forfeit if you know that his deck counters yours.

 

[_Kili_]

If I understand correctly, your Reveal reveals a random card in deck, which then in turn can't be revealed anymore because it is already revealed? And once it is drawn, it will not be revealed anymore, right?
I like the idea, but I think it's still too RNG heavy for my taste While it definitely is an improvement to what reveal is now, I have to keep wondering, why was reveal changed from what it was? Was there anything wrong with it? (Apart from the mirror matchup ofc, which was atrocious, but funnily enough, one of the few instances where you wanted to "lose" coinflip)

 

[Nelogis]

If I understand correctly, your Reveal reveals a random card in deck, which then in turn can't be revealed anymore because it is already revealed? And once it is drawn, it will not be revealed anymore, right?
I like the idea, but I think it's still too RNG heavy for my taste While it definitely is an improvement to what reveal is now, I have to keep wondering, why was reveal changed from what it was? Was there anything wrong with it? (Apart from the mirror matchup ofc, which was atrocious, but funnily enough, one of the few instances where you wanted to "lose" coinflip)

Yes that is how it would work, I can't remove the RNG completely because in the end you will always reveal a random card.

The problem with old reveal was that the enemy knew your entire hand when they invested into the round and with the old drawing system, your hand wasn't going to change so the enemy knew your hand for pretty much the entire game.

That wasn't fun in the slightest, you just played and hoped your enemy was dumb enough to fuck up something. Like scorching the wrong minion or whatever so your other win-condition (which he also knows about) could go uncontested.

Generally it was just really dumb

But I have to ask, why do you think the old reveal was better in regards of RNG?

 

[_Kili_]

As if it wasn't obvious most of the time what you had in hand, there was no real need to reveal it.
You saw SK -> do you really need to reveal the greatswords to see em coming?

Where was there RNG in old reveal?

 

[Nelogis]

As if it wasn't obvious most of the time what you had in hand, there was no real need to reveal it.
You saw SK -> do you really need to reveal the greatswords to see em coming?

Where was there RNG in old reveal?

Well that was a special time in Gwent where there were no updates for 6 months straight so the only decks left were the full on meta decks everyone knew about.

But imagine now you play against SK. The enemy leader is Harald. How stupid would it be for the SK player if you knew exactly which cards to remove for him to not be able to do anything?

Or any other engine related deck, you might say "well then the reveal decks counter engines and control" but then we are heading towards this rock-paper-scissor dilemma again.

With the rework I suggested you still get an idea what your opponent is playing and know which cards they draw and when, but you won't be able to see potential combos or key cards like scorch. The game should still be a card game where you don't see the enemies hand after all.

To the question of where the RNG in old reveal was, it's the same as the rework I suggested. You reveal a random card, that card might be a trash bronze nobody gives a rats ass about or a key card like Gigni / win condition.

That is the least amount of RNG the reveal mechanic can have, revealing a random card. You can't have less RNG than that.

 

[_Kili_]

Except, the card I revealed with old reveal was not random; I could choose it, and there was a system behind what to choose.

Now when I see Skellige, to take up you example, I do not need to reveal their cards to know whats coming...Wolfsbane, Wild Boar of the Sea, possibly Regis, or nothing I need to be overly concerned about.
The only thing revealing these cards would do is confirm my suspision, and tell me the way I'm playing is right, it does not change my approach.
Other example? I see Eithne, guess what? Wolfsbane, Shirru, high likelihood of Igni and tons of small removal.
It's quite easy to guess what your opponent has, atleast in deck, and then you just have to play around worst case scenario and hope for the best. Watching what your opponent does is most of the time reveal enough, is he setting all your cards to 4-6 after a Ithlinne -> Shirru; is he setting all your cards in a row to 1,2,etc. -> Regis; is he evening/odding all your units -> Wolfsbane

 

[Nelogis]

Except, the card I revealed with old reveal was not random; I could choose it, and there was a system behind what to choose.

Now when I see Skellige, to take up you example, I do not need to reveal their cards to know whats coming...Wolfsbane, Wild Boar of the Sea, possibly Regis, or nothing I need to be overly concerned about.
The only thing revealing these cards would do is confirm my suspision, and tell me the way I'm playing is right, it does not change my approach.
Other example? I see Eithne, guess what? Wolfsbane, Shirru, high likelihood of Igni and tons of small removal.
It's quite easy to guess what your opponent has, atleast in deck, and then you just have to play around worst case scenario and hope for the best. Watching what your opponent does is most of the time reveal enough, is he setting all your cards to 4-6 after a Ithlinne -> Shirru; is he setting all your cards in a row to 1,2,etc. -> Regis; is he evening/odding all your units -> Wolfsbane

Yes those are meta decks, can't remove those, these will always be there.
Also the cards you mentioned (Wolfsbane/Shirru) are cards that are just predictable, with or without reveal in the game.
But there are also players (like me) that like to experiment with stuff. I play Dragons Dream + Nivellen, Olaf + Hym, Sigdrifas Rite + Jutta in an enemy wounding deck with GS and Harald.

This kind of deck relies on your enemy not knowing what the hell is going to happen because if he knew my entire hand there would be no point in playing, just look if my points summed up are more than you can prevent and build up, if no, just forfeit.

If you revealed just some random ass cards like Dragons Dream or Olaf in my deck and the other key component is in my hand, then the enemy will know that you might have a row damaging ability so he will spread the units
-> Getting an upper hand through reveal

But he doesn't know that you have Nivellen in hand
-> The core mechanic of a card game, not knowing the enemies hand

If he reveals both cards in your deck then that is the RNG aspect of reveal. He will have a very good idea of what is going to happen and will play his units carefully UNLESS you mulligan both of those cards upon drawing so he is playing around something that doesn't exist and making sub-optimal plays for nothing.

This is the agency I wanted to give both players with the reveal rework, both players can do something about the mechanic.

 

[Gen_Liu]

Really good job here and very nice rework overall. The only issue is the fact that it's really oriented for peoples, like us, who are fan of the game but new comers will quickly be lost with that many new mechanics/keywords just for one archetype.

I really like keeping the cards revealed in the deck...well, revealed because I fully agree that, right now, revealing a card serves no purpose and is just an attempt at keeping an archetype that's gone from the game in reality (reveal as we knew it is officially removed from the game, let's be clear about that).
Honestly, I don't think there is that many cards that are problematic in this archetype, it's mostly Spotter, Deitwhen Arbalest and the golem that are an issue (not for me because I've never had any issue with this archetype but I respect the majority).

I would love Spotter to be the new alchemist, revealing a card in your opponent's hand (just one if they want to keep it at 4 provisions) because I feel like this kind of effect should be back in the game. That was one of the best idea CDPR had and as long as it's not too aggressive, I'm pretty sure peoples will be fine with it.

I kind of miss the old mechanic of revealing cards in your opponent's hand and make your next step based on what you see.

For the rest, I agree that revealing cards in your opponent's deck should be revealed for real and in fact, it should remain so when the opponent draws them.

Having said that, I still think some card should remain the same. Viper Witcher, as surprising as it might sound, is a really good unit that punish thinning cards and the game, not only lack of those effects right now but also need them.
Plus getting a card banished isn't as bad as people might think, every deck has multiple way to victory and banishing a win con is not worst than not drawing it. Does that mean you're gonna lose? No, certainly not.

Also, please don't change cards that are meant for other archetype in the current version of Gwent, Vattier De Rideaux is one of my win con in my Usurper control deck. Don't take it from me, that's rude. lol
Honestly, only cards that are in the reveal archetype should see a change, other should not, it's really important not to take tools away from other archetypes to make reveal more interesting, definitely not the way to go imo.

I do fully agree about the right click on the opponent's deck showing the cards revealed so far, that's an awesome idea which would give room to new strategic play and even new card effects.

I think the deck should be about revealing cards in your and opponent's deck and have win con that benefits from this (just like you did, that's another point I agree with you).
For example, the recruit should just reveal a card from both decks, there is no need for him to boost afterwards (even though this card is clearly not the most problematic but still). As long as the deck is about getting value out of revealing cards (like Sweers and Mangonel are currently designed) having a card that "just" reveal cards is enough, especially for 4 provisions.

 

[_Kili_]

My point stands, you either play cards that I'm scared of, and I will automatically play around those, or cards I'm not scared of, so why bother with them?

Having said that, I still think some card should remain the same. Viper Witcher, as surprising as it might sound, is a really good unit that punish thinning cards and the game, not only lack of those effects right now but also need them.
Plus getting a card banish isn't as bad as people might think, every deck has multiple way to victory and banishing a win con is not worst than not drawing it. Does that mean you're gonna lose? No, certainly not.
.

Viper Witcher is just the single most stupid designed card in the game right now. It's uncouterable, completely RNG dependent and irreversible, plus it's a bronze that can easily remove even the strongest of gold cards.
I'm especially sad about it because old Viper Witcher was probably one of the best designed cards in old Gwent.

 

[Gen_Liu]

My point stands, you either play cards that I'm scared of, and I will automatically play around those, or cards I'm not scared of, so why bother with them?


Viper Witcher is just the single most stupid designed card in the game right now. It's uncouterable, completely RNG dependent and irreversible, plus it's a bronze that can easily remove even the strongest of gold cards.
I'm especially sad about it because old Viper Witcher was probably one of the best designed cards in old Gwent.

Interesting because I feel completely the opposite. The old Viper witcher, while being well designed, I agree, was one of the most annoying and unhealthy card CDPR ever printed since it was a bronze card that read "destroy an enemy unit and don't play engine cards".

Viper witcher in the current state is much better and kinda reminds me of mill cards in MTG, a lot of peoples hate them because they don't fully understand them but they're clearly not that bad.
As I said, this card takes a card from your deck, not the board. If I have the choice I prefere watching my win con going bye bye before I draw it rather than losing it on a removal spell. From that perspective Viper witcher is better than any removal spell you can think of.

 

[Nelogis]

Really good job here and very nice rework overall. The only issue is the fact that it's really oriented for peoples, like us, who are fan of the game but new comers will quickly be lost with that many new mechanics/keywords just for one archetype.

I really like keeping the cards revealed in the deck...well, revealed because I fully agree that, right now, revealing a card serves no purpose and is just an attempt at keeping an archetype that's gone from the game in reality (reveal as we knew it is officially removed from the game, let's be clear about that).
Honestly, I don't think there is that many cards that are problematic in this archetype, it's mostly Spotter, Deitwhen Arbalest and the golem that are an issue (not for me because I've never had any issue with this archetype but I respect the majority).

I would love Spotter to be the new alchemist, revealing a card in your opponent's hand (just one if they want to keep it at 4 provisions) because I feel like this kind of effect should be back in the game. That was one of the best idea CDPR had and as long as it's not too aggressive, I'm pretty sure peoples will be fine with it.

I kind of miss the old mechanic of revealing cards in your opponent's hand and make your next step based on what you see.

For the rest, I agree that revealing cards in your opponent's deck should be revealed for real and in fact, it should remain so when the opponent draws them.

Having said that, I still think some card should remain the same. Viper Witcher, as surprising as it might sound, is a really good unit that punish thinning cards and the game, not only lack of those effects right now but also need them.
Plus getting a card banished isn't as bad as people might think, every deck has multiple way to victory and banishing a win con is not worst than not drawing it. Does that mean you're gonna lose? No, certainly not.

Also, please don't change cards that are meant for other archetype in the current version of Gwent, Vattier De Rideaux is one of my win con in my Usurper control deck. Don't take it from me, that's rude. lol
Honestly, only cards that are in the reveal archetype should see a change, other should not, it's really important not to take tools away from other archetypes to make reveal more interesting, definitely not the way to go imo.

I do fully agree about the right click on the opponent's deck showing the cards revealed so far, that's an awesome idea which would give room to new strategic play and even new card effects.

I think the deck should be about revealing cards in your and opponent's deck and have win con that benefits from this (just like you did, that's another point I agree with you).
For example, the recruit should just reveal a card from both decks, there is no need for him to boost afterwards (even though this card is clearly not the most problematic but still). As long as the deck is about getting value out of revealing cards (like Sweers and Mangonel are currently designed) having a card that "just" reveal cards is enough, especially for 4 provisions.

I had in mind to also include the sabotage and obscured tags on maybe ST
These tags would fit them very well too so it wouldn't be a single archetype thing (other than unveil + reveal).
Keep in mind sabotage doesn't need to be casted on a revealed card, it could also effect a card already played on the board.

Revealing a card in your opponents hand that easily with a 4 prov deploy ability bronze wouldn't work with my rework.

Usuper would be able to Sabotage it instantly, basically rendering a card in your hand completely useless or even straight up removing it from your hand if it's a spell or artifact.
Also the reason why revealed cards conceal them again upon drawing.

That is why "unveiling" is such a high cost ability only accessible through long cooldowns or whole leader abilities. It is game-winning to sabotage a card in the opponents hand.

Also IMO viper witcher is a terrible card. If it is a 4 strength gold with 11 prov cost just like Letho I might be able to accept it.
Think about it, they are 4S/6P. If they banish ANYTHING that comes even close to a win-condition they have insane value.

Oh you just banished my Twoblade? Haha guess that was just a 16 point value from a bronze 6 provision cost card.

Make them an actual tech card by incresing the cost tremendously, because right now you just include them in every reveal deck because they are so cheap and if the RNG is on your side, they might win you the game on their own without the enemy being able to do anything about it.

Well yeah you can keep your Vattier ^^ Just added him in here because I needed another card and he used to be a reveal card so I just chose him.

 

[_Kili_]

Interesting because I feel completely the opposite. The old Viper witcher, while being well designed, I agree, was one of the most annoying and unhealthy card CDPR ever printed since it was a bronze card that read "destroy an enemy unit and don't play engine cards".

Viper witcher in the current state is much better and kinda reminds me of mill cards in MTG, a lot of peoples hate them because they don't fully understand them but they're clearly not that bad.
As I said, this card takes a card from your deck, not the board. If I have the choice I prefere watching my win con going bye bye before I draw it rather than losing it on a removal spell. From that perspective Viper witcher is better than any removal spell you can think of.

Well, I guess we won't agree on Viper Witcher anytime soon.
What I find really irritating about it is CDPR always communicated they don't like cards like it as it is now, and I think that does not bode well for the future

 

[Gen_Liu]

I had in mind to also include the sabotage and obscured tags on maybe ST
These tags would fit them very well too so it wouldn't be a single archetype thing (other than unveil + reveal).
Keep in mind sabotage doesn't need to be casted on a revealed card, it could also effect a card already played on the board.

Revealing a card in your opponents hand that easily with a 4 prov deploy ability bronze wouldn't work with my rework.

Usuper would be able to Sabotage it instantly, basically rendering a card in your hand completely useless or even straight up removing it from your hand if it's a spell or artifact.
Also the reason why revealed cards conceal them again upon drawing.

That is why "unveiling" is such a high cost ability only accessible through long cooldowns or whole leader abilities. It is game-winning to sabotage a card in the opponents hand.

Also IMO viper witcher is a terrible card. If it is a 4 strength gold with 11 prov cost just like Letho I might be able to accept it.
Think about it, they are 4S/6P. If they banish ANYTHING that comes even close to a win-condition they have insane value.

Oh you just banished my Twoblade? Haha guess that was just a 16 point value from a bronze 6 provision cost card.

Make them an actual tech card by incresing the cost tremendously, because right now you just include them in every reveal deck because they are so cheap and if the RNG is on your side, they might win you the game on their own without the enemy being able to do anything about it.

Well yeah you can keep your Vattier ^^ Just added him in here because I needed another card and he used to be a reveal card so I just chose him.

Ironically, I'm not playing Viper witchers in my reveal deck and I'm winning more games than when I tested it with them.
Again, VW are massively overhestimated by the community. Let me explain why.

First of all, you said that it can have an insane value but this isn't true at all. One thing I love with this card is that it's the only one in Gwent that attacks your provision base.
They don't generate value because they don't affect your board nor your future boards (to take your example, yes, you can't draw Dagur anymore but you still have two Greatswords as well as many game winning cards, Dagur isn't the only card that can win you a game, far from it). What VW does is effectively reducing the provision played by your opponent and it causes two things that I believe to be very healthy for the game.
1/It forces players to be more conservative on the provisions they invest into their deck, you want Sihil? Go ahead but on a good roll of VW, you lose 15 provisions out of your deck.
2/As I explained earlier, they keep thinning at bay, which is very important in a game like Gwent that suffered from abusing this mechanic in the past (and in fact still currently does with the Witcher trio).

Also, about the random aspect of the card, I wanted to point out the fact they're completely different to Recruits or Deitwhen Arbalest for example.
What pisses peoples off with those two cards is the fact they already represent decent value for their provision cost but on a good roll you get an extra which makes them very strong and in a way, unfair.

VW however, isn't like that. The card IS meant to hit a meaningful target. A gold, a tech card that threaten your strategy, a Witcher ect. If they hit anything else, they're just a 4str unit with no ability, the RNG aspect of this card isn't a "win more" thing, it's a nerf.
If the card wasn't RNG dependant it would choose a card in your deck and banish it...Not sure it's better lol

Well, I guess we won't agree on Viper Witcher anytime soon.
What I find really irritating about it is CDPR always communicated they don't like cards like it as it is now, and I think that does not bode well for the future

Yes, we have very different opinions on this point but it doesn't mean I don't respect yours, obviously.
Honestly I understand how you feel and I agree that the card can easily feel very dirty and unfair but I believe it's just the consequence of seeing your win con being banished by VW that annoys peoples (understandibly so). But I don't think the card is as bad as you think and I'm sure you didn't lose that many game just because of this card (if any).

 

[Nelogis]

Ironically, I'm not playing Viper witchers in my reveal deck and I'm winning more games than when I tested it with them.
Again, VW are massively overhestimated by the community. Let me explain why.

First of all, you said that it can have an insane value but this isn't true at all. One thing I love with this card is that it's the only one in Gwent that attacks your provision base.
They don't generate value because they don't affect your board nor your future boards (to take your example, yes, you can't draw Dagur anymore but you still have two Greatswords as well as many game winning cards, Dagur isn't the only card that can win you a game, far from it). What VW does is effectively reducing the provision played by your opponent and it causes two things that I believe to be very healthy for the game.
1/It forces players to be more conservative on the provisions they invest into their deck, you want Sihil? Go ahead but on a good roll of VW, you lose 15 provisions out of your deck.
2/As I explained earlier, they keep thinning at bay, which is very important in a game like Gwent that suffered from abusing this mechanic in the past (and in fact still currently does with the Witcher trio).

Also, about the random aspect of the card, I wanted to point out the fact they're completely different to Recruits or Deitwhen Arbalest for example.
What pisses peoples off with those two cards is the fact they already represent decent value for their provision cost but on a good roll you get an extra which makes them very strong and in a way, unfair.

VW however, isn't like that. The card IS meant to hit a meaningful target. A gold, a tech card that threaten your strategy, a Witcher ect. If they hit anything else, they're just a 4str unit with no ability, the RNG aspect of this card isn't a "win more" thing, it's a nerf.
If the card wasn't RNG dependant it would choose a card in your deck and banish it...Not sure it's better lol


Yes, we have very different opinions on this point but it doesn't mean I don't respect yours, obviously.
Honestly I understand how you feel and I agree that the card can easily feel very dirty and unfair but I believe it's just the consequence of seeing your win con being banished by VW that annoys peoples (understandibly so). But I don't think the card is as bad as you think and I'm sure you didn't lose that many game just because of this card (if any).

Just because VW doesn't directly influence the board doesn't mean that they don't generate value.

Let's say you are playing a big bois NR deck for whatever reason and VW just banished Gigni.
VW just granted you around 8 points of value for future rounds.

It's the same as discard works, playing Derran is trash when it comes to raw points. It's just a 4 strength dude, playing a recruit is better than that BUT he generates value for the next rounds.

VW work exactly like that, they generate value for future rounds, they don't even have to banish a win-condition, just generally discarding a gold card is enough value.

Imagine banishing a speartip...

The reworked reveal still has these disrupting mechanics, hell, Cantarella can straight up play a card from your opponents deck but the opponent can do something against it and he KNOWS what can be sabotaged / disrupted and can think ahead accordingly.

 

[Gen_Liu]

Just because VW doesn't directly influence the board doesn't mean that they don't generate value.

Let's say you are playing a big bois NR deck for whatever reason and VW just banished Gigni.
VW just granted you around 8 points of value for future rounds.

It's the same as discard works, playing Derran is trash when it comes to raw points. It's just a 4 strength dude, playing a recruit is better than that BUT he generates value for the next rounds.

It's not exactly the same thing.
Derran discards things that are going to give you value down the line because your deck is built around that. In fact he can even provides immediate value by discarding Skirmishers or Morgvarg.But to give you an idea, Derran in a deck that has no synergy with discard/graveyard has no value.

VW doesn't provides value, not even in the future rounds because you're still gonna draw cards that gives you something. You have no penalty on your board and still have the same cards in hand.
What VW does is lowering your deck's provision base, which is different.

 

[Nelogis]

Derran doesn't discard, only moves to the graveyard, doesn't work with Skirmishers

If VW "only" reduced the provisions of a deck then that means your opponent still has Gigni in his hand ready to burn your units right?
But he doesn't, your units are safe.

If VW read "your opponent needs to chose a card to banish from their deck" THEN I could agree with you. Because then you essentially reduce the prov limit of the enemy deck.

BUT, banishing a keycard or a win-condition is just generating value for further rounds. It may not be direct value for you or your board but it is value that the enemy would have generated / taken away from you at some point in the game.

Either way we could discuss this without an end so let's just agree to disagree ^^

 

[Gen_Liu]

Derran doesn't discard, only moves to the graveyard, doesn't work with Skirmishers

That's absolutely right, I forgot about that but you get my point, Derran generate value (I mean, physical value that appears on the board sooner or later) for future rounds because your deck synergies with your graveyard.

...I don't know why I can't remember the fact that he doesn't discard, in fact I'm pretty sure I lost a game because of that. At least this conversation should print it in my brain for good lol

Either way we could discuss this without an end so let's just agree to disagree ^^

Fair enough, we both explained our point which is the most important.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I think the problem with Reveal has less to do with the mechanics and more to do with the card abilities. Revealing a random card isn't necessarily a terrible concept. Having cards in your own deck revealed also isn't necessarily terrible (balance reasons). The problem is when a card can get value ranging from normal to absurd off of random interactions. I don't think such design should be what Gwent is about.

Your cards should get high value because you played them correctly. They should not get high value because the game just happened to randomly pick option A, B or C. In a sense your proposal pushes it away from these random selections. So from that standpoint it's a good idea.

I would disagree with certain comments discussing whether the existing reveal offers beneficial information. If I pop a reveal and see DD my immediate thought is Nivellen. Those two cards fit together perfectly. My second thought is to aggressively attempt to take R1 so I can bleed R2 and get that shit out of the opponents hand before R3 . Likewise, if I see Olaf or Jutta it's crystal clear what the opponent probably intends to do with those cards.

If anything I think the way cards are displayed when revealed adds a degree of skill to game play. You have to pay attention to each and every reveal, including what you may show the opponent, and remember what was revealed. The reveal card abilities themselves are another story entirely.