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An MMO Thread

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dragonbird

Ex-moderator
#21
Sep 28, 2013
Chill, everyone.

And remember just how many times you've ever seen anyone change their views as a result of a forum discussion.

And does anyone want popcorn?
 
U

username_3688833

Rookie
#22
Sep 28, 2013
Sardukhar said:
And yet, it is so often my very favourite.
Click to expand...
Oh no it isn't!
 
Sardukhar

Sardukhar

Moderator
#23
Sep 28, 2013
Actually. I've seen plenty of view changes as results of forum discussion. So have you, probably - review threads and discussions. A suitably enthusiastic review from someone whose points make sense can cause me to flip my view on a game or movie I wasn't sure about.

Depending on how honest people are, a person who reveals previously unknown content on a subject can cause views to change, cants to be re-ed and even apologies to be handed out.

And that's for the best - if we lose our ability to learn and adjust to new data despite older, less accurate date, we're pretty screwed.
 
D

dragonbird

Ex-moderator
#24
Sep 28, 2013
Sardukhar said:
Actually. I've seen plenty of view changes as results of forum discussion. So have you, probably - review threads and discussions. A suitably enthusiastic review from someone whose points make sense can cause me to flip my view on a game or movie I wasn't sure about.
Click to expand...
OK. Fair enough ;)
 
Sardukhar

Sardukhar

Moderator
#25
Sep 28, 2013
Ha! Nice one.
 
227

227

Forum veteran
#26
Sep 28, 2013
I haven't ever given MMOs a chance because I have zero desire for my social and escapist sides to ever overlap to such a degree where some random idiot could ruin my fun. I have, however, seen people become addicted to them. That's given me the perspective to recognize them for what they are: codependent relationships. They become work rather than fun, with promises of better things in the future keeping players hanging around and making excuses for all of the wasted time and money that they've poured into them with nothing to show for it.

Sardukhar said:
And that's for the best - if we lose our ability to learn and adjust to new data despite older, less accurate date, we're pretty screwed.
Click to expand...
... Oooooor we could refuse to give an inch while frustrating and provoking the other side into making stupid mistakes, eventually winning discussions through attrition warfare regardless of the validity of our points.

Maybe we'd all be screwed, but winning is totally awesome enough to make up for that. Quit trying to make losing cool, Sacklunch.
 
Sardukhar

Sardukhar

Moderator
#27
Sep 28, 2013
I love you so much some days, 220.
 
U

username_3688833

Rookie
#28
Sep 28, 2013
C'mon guys, just make out already. We all know it's gonna happen...
 
chriswebb2020.736

chriswebb2020.736

Forum veteran
#29
Sep 28, 2013
Dragonbird said:
Chill, everyone.

And remember just how many times you've ever seen anyone change their views as a result of a forum discussion.

And does anyone want popcorn?
Click to expand...
My opinions of people have changed, does that count?
And yea, I'll take some popcorn please, extra butter, hold the sugar.
I'm sweet enough.
 
U

username_3688833

Rookie
#30
Sep 28, 2013
ChrisWebb2020 said:
My opinions of people have changed, does that count?
And yea, I'll take some popcorn please, extra butter, hold the sugar.
I'm sweet enough.
Click to expand...
Never trust a man who keeps pigs.
 
chriswebb2020.736

chriswebb2020.736

Forum veteran
#31
Sep 28, 2013
Captain Death said:
Never trust a man who keeps pigs.
Click to expand...
16lbs in one sitting...
 
D

designer5

Rookie
#32
Sep 28, 2013
ChrisWebb2020 said:
This, right here, is the single most important thing you have said to date. It says everything anyone needs to know about you as a player.
I would not bother getting 2077, because you wont enjoy it. You obviously haven't played any good single player games, ...
Click to expand...
Okey... So you just suggest me not buying the 2077 game. Well that helps a lot. Not.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
Ok, basic things that Planetside has and Call of Duty or Battlefield don't:
- Strategy (tactics yes, strateg
...
Do these things make Planetside 2 far superior? For some people, yes. Others, no. As you can see, there are good things AND bad things. ...
Click to expand...
Yes, they make PS2 far superior. PS2 has elements that you miss in other games -> superior. Why stick to lesser game when you can play superior one?

ChrisWebb2020 said:
Who said you can't have an Open World? Why not?
Click to expand...
You can have an open world in SP game, but that is kind of boring as you know already that yes it is just a game! It has been designed to be a fluent run through some stories - so you know beforehand that it is fluent run through some stories. There are no surprises there. There are just the stories and your puzzle solving skills. And that's it. Even a baby solves puzzles when you give him a box with random shaped holes and equivalent blocks. If the baby is smart. You merely get to adjust the difficulty level of the game. If you are not very skilled or experienced with computer games, no worries. Push a "I win"-button!

ChrisWebb2020 said:
2077 is already confirmed as an open world game. The best stories are the ones that you have a hand in creating, you are correct. But the very best are ones that you can change.
Click to expand...
Right, and MMOs change the most, if they are not about static quests.

In a SP, you can choose what quests you start doing, but yeah, it is still more like just a game.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
Worst. Sales Pitch. Ever.
Click to expand...
I meant, that even some MMOs are not optimal, because they have mostly static quest / dungeon runs.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
(I am interpreting dungeons as area's that contain a high number of well armed enemies that will require a protracted fight, cunning and ingenuity - rather than MMO dungeons that need tanks, DPS, healers and crowd control... zzz.... oh, sorry dozed off there thinking about how different all those MMO dungeons are across all those different gamessszzz...)
Click to expand...
So it wasn't a sales pitch but I meant that even MMOs need to be better to get their full potential up. Cyberpunk MMO shouldn't be just a Wow clone.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
Are they the same for everyone? I doubt they would be. The most obvious benefit of a SP Open World game is that you can affect the world, meaning you can approach different obstacles or tasks from different angles. You don't always have to kill a target, you can use less than lethal means. You may even be able to negotiate, or better yet, backstab your employer!
Click to expand...
In SP game even when you have options, they are still just options. Why would I want to play the game through? In MMOs there are at least other people I can interact with.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
You say that SP games lose gameplay, I say they gain far more.
Click to expand...
SP games can have nice stories and gameplay, but MMOs have more potential when done right.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
And how do the other players affect your story in MMO's? Ok some will help you out and some will fuck you over. Yay... ... EVE not withstanding - as it is the exception to the rule, and it has more in common with PS2 than WoW.) If you are fed up of someone in an MMO, can you eject them from your world/server? ...
Click to expand...
Yes, Eve is calculated here to MMOs, because I have all the time wanted a better MMO than just a traditional quests / dungeon runner. So there would be territory control, factions, players helping each other, etc.

You can't eject other players from MMO, but you can team up and protect your land. That is the whole point of MMOs. SP game stories are too good to be true. If you look at general population, there really are people who behave badly. Only thing is that in MMOs you can just reappear if you die, so there are no consequences. But in Cyberpunk MMO it would be ironman mode and have account wide standings towards the factions.

You can move to more quiet areas in MMOs, if you want to take break from fights, for example. Or you can play a healer, engineer, etc, who don't go to the front line. If someone behaves badly inside your faction, that person gets kicked out.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
EVE boils down to two things; Farming, (of one kind or another - trade included,) and the control of said Farming. Take Mittens; He is a controller, he schemes, plots and dominates. He is the face of Goonswarm and what do they do?
Generate ISK - Farming
Scam - Farming
...
Wait for the alarm clock to be told to press F1 because Mittens commands it... (I don't think that count's as anything. It sure as hell isn't fun!)
Click to expand...
There are many other people than goons in Eve, too. And they don't only farm. They socialize, have adventures, fight against odds as challenge, etc.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
The stories you are refering to in EVE all boil down to fucking someone else over, or not getting fucked over. Sure, I can regail you about the time the 6 man corp I was in faced down a 250 man alliance in a 2 month wardeck and we destroyed over 10 billion isk wort of ships, ... Just good old fashioned plated 'canes, ... co-ordination and team work.
Click to expand...
Nice.
 
D

designer5

Rookie
#33
Sep 28, 2013
ChrisWebb2020 said:
Did we affect the game world? No. We fucked over a bunch of guys that didn't want to PVP, (yeah, it's basically a PVP game, I know,) and we made a few quit.
Click to expand...
Eve has had rising subscriber numbers and the game is still around after many years. The next free expansion comes this year. The world is living all the time, you can check the territories. There are even maps of them and people have made animations how the regions have changed over time.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
As you aptly pointed out, IF people want that kind of gameplay, it's already there; it's called EVE Online.
EVE is a very niche game. The majority of people are unwilling to deal with the level of risk involved.
Click to expand...
There are also safer places for starters. And there is now Dust, where you fight on the ground, too. But it isn't on PC. People play PS2 for that, except that it lacks in stories etc.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
Also, you do realise that just about every MMO community, (especially EVE,) laughs at the WoW player base, right?
Click to expand...
Yes, I didn't bring Wow up as a good example. Though, Wow still has team runs in dungeons and raids, which is more interaction than a SP game has. Even with MP features I am afraid that it isn't the same thing, as it still isn't an MMO as a world.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
I suggest you look at the forum a bit more. There are hundreds of threads that have nothing to do with roles or role balancing.
Click to expand...
But there would be hundreds more if it was an MMO.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
Roles will, (hopefully,) not be the same as 'classes' in other games. I for one am hoping for a much more open approach.
Click to expand...
Maybe the roles are just backgrounds and then everything is about attributes and skills. But that could be done in MMO, too.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
There is gaming beyond MMO's you know. A lot of people actually LIKE the stories in games, myself included. Many people don't want to play with other people all the time, (or even at all.) ... My problem is that When I played WoW, ... I could not get online at the right times to go on raids or even dungeon runs because I had a job. In a single player game, (or multiplayer,) that is not a problem, you can do what you want, when you have the time.
Click to expand...
I know, but dungeon finder tools have solved the problems of not finding a group. And in living virtual worlds there are not so much dungeons but you just join teams dynamically and get going in the same world every player is.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
The fact is that 2077 would not work as an MMO. The setting is wrong. It's main appeal IS the story, and MMO stories all end up bland and unrewarding, (or, more commonly, the MMO has a great story behind it - like EVE, LoTRO and WoW - but utterly fails to convey it in a meaningful manner.)
Click to expand...
Right, one just need to stop failing in the conveying. But I still don't want MMOs to have railroad stories. Even cutscenes are annoying, because you have used to run around with your character and suddenly you are not able to run anywhere as the cutscene takes control. I mean, if I want to run around, why the cutscene? I understand short "cutscene" animations when for example I manage to conquer new piece of land as my owning in a strategic level map, because it would be kind of an announcement style of thing. But otherwise stories get quite fast boring. Who cares about premade stories when your actual gameplay is supposed to be a story in itself?

For example a Wow dungeon run is kind of a story. Lets take for an example the castle dungeon quite early in Wow, Shadow fang keep. First you get a group of adventurers together. Then you travel the way to the castle where is some evil wizard. You fight some monsters along the way to the castle and see different kinds of beautiful mountain and coastal sceneries. You then start to near the castle and the atmosphere changes to more evil, as you see sky turning darker and few zombies walking around. You smash the zombies, and arrive to a bridge that leads to the castle on top of a big hill. The group of adventurers cross the bridge, go through a gate, and get the first look at the inside of the castle. It is the first front inside space that has couple of doors, and you spot a monster with big fangs! You go after the monster and traversing the castle begins: You advance in the castle through various monster filled rooms, inner yards, walk along catwalks on the castle walls, fight bosses, etc.. until you get to the evil wizard that has powerful spells and tricks...

Isn't that a fricking story? Then you also have the other players with you. It is not only about you surviving the thing, it is also about helping the others, fighting as a team, and achieving something. You can't save. If you fail, you have to walk from the beginning. I wish improvements to Wow dungeons, though, like I have told earlier. The castle adventure above is really good, but the later dungeons have been often too bland in the floor plan - too much hallways that are a railroad through the place. Dungeons should at least feel like you are advancing through hidden openings, crawling in difficult terrain, choosing routes, etc.

Sure in Wow ressurrection is easy, which has been kind of good thing so that people won't rage quit. But Wow has many levels over long periods of time. In Cyberpunk MMO levels wouldn't matter so much. In Eve you lose ships, that are worth a lot. But it all adds to the excitement.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
But hey, let's talk about your PS2 character. Why did they sign up to fight? What's their family like? How old are they? What's their favourite colour? What's their hobbies? What is their favourite food?
...oh yeah, they are a clone that knows only combat, death and pain. That's deep man.
Click to expand...
We will see will there be favorite color setting in Cyberpunk 2077. And how much that matters in the game itself.

In PS2 you can customize your soldier and vehicles, with different kinds of additional gear and camouflage. But other than that I have admitted that there are not much stories. But that doesn't stop adding stories into Cyberpunk MMO.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
Tell you what, same questions but for any of your WoW characters.
Click to expand...
The same answer goes here.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
Can you answer them? Honestly? ...or did you just go "WTF???"
Click to expand...
See above.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
I can answer all of those, and more, about all of my 2020 characters. You see, MMORPG's put far too much stock in the MMO aspects and not enough into the RP aspects. Hell, even the Roleplay servers are full of min-maxers.
Click to expand...
But there is not yet Cyberpunk 2020 the computer game.

ChrisWebb2020 said:
And you still have not justified your ridiculous statement of "Single Player game, because SOLO!!!"
Click to expand...
Why not?
 
D

designer5

Rookie
#34
Sep 28, 2013
Captain Death said:
Maybe you need to study debating sometime. "No" is not a well thought out argument.
Click to expand...
Really? If I say no, then I mean no. What are you going to make about it? Tell me that saying no is not valid? Haha
 
chriswebb2020.736

chriswebb2020.736

Forum veteran
#35
Sep 28, 2013
Right, to avoid more walls of text, I am going to focus on the key areas:

1 - If Planetside 2 is so obviously superior, (and we know it is also free,) then why have CoD and Battlefield both got much higher player bases? Perhaps it is because they deliver a different style of gameplay that people find more attractive?
It's personal prference. Your preference is not the same as everyone elses.

2 - If MMO stories change the most, then how is it that no matter what the players do the dungeons, bosses and NPC's remain the same? You go back over and over again killing the same bosses in dungeons to get shiny stuff, but they all come back...
Sure, patches and expansions can change that, but individual players have no immediate change oin it, they can only chage the stories between themselves. You don;t need an MMO for that, standard multiplayer can, if used right, provide it AND you get a superior stopry within the game.

3 - There are hundreds of posts about all sorts of stuff for 2077, and I am sure that if it were to be an MMO there would be many more threads, most of which would start with "Generic Thing #373 is OP!!!".
If you really believe that there would be more meaningful threads, then I personally think the doctor should up your meds.

4 - Yes, MMO's have lots of stories, but they are far closer to stories like "The Hungry, Hungry Caterpillar" than they are to the works of Shakespeare. The stories within SP games can be much higher quality and much more interactive. They can also be affected by individual players much better.

5 - Your ignorance of what Roleplay actually is astounds me. It is obvious that you are just another min-maxer and you cannot appreciate the sort of game that CDPR produce.
That is why I said don't bother buying 2077 when it comes out.

Designer5 said:
Really? If I say no, then I mean no. What are you going to make about it? Tell me that saying no is not valid? Haha
Click to expand...
About as valid as the next guy that says; "Yes!" So, your argument devolves into:
"Yes."
"No."
"Yes!"
"No!"
"YES!"
"NO!"

Such a productive argument, don't you think? Seriously though, as Cap. said, learn to "debate".
 
U

username_3688833

Rookie
#36
Sep 28, 2013
Designer5 said:
Really? If I say no, then I mean no. What are you going to make about it? Tell me that saying no is not valid? Haha
Click to expand...
Considering you've blithely and arrogantly dismissed reasonable criticisms of just about every boneheaded statement you've made with "Nuh-uh!", I do suggest your argument, if it can be called that, is invalid.

 
Sardukhar

Sardukhar

Moderator
#37
Sep 28, 2013
"Yes."
"No."
"Yes!"
"No!"
"YES!"
"NO!"

Oh, goody, I win AGAIN.


So, is anyone here playing an MMO right now other than Eve? I haven't played more than ten minutes and so find it hard to relate. Are you following the World of Darkness MMO news at all?

WoD MMO may, if it gets off the ground, be the first solid attempt at storytelling in an MMO world that encourages roleplay. I hear permadeath is being considered?

Old Republic claimed storytelling and some of the story was fun, but role play was utterly minimal, I found.
 
S

schiff

Rookie
#38
Sep 28, 2013
There were news about permadeath some time ago, they also said or implied dying won't be as easy as one may think.
 
Sardukhar

Sardukhar

Moderator
#39
Sep 28, 2013
I follow it here, what there is of it: http://www.wodnews.net/

Some interesting stuff. Another rethink may be underway.
 
D

dragonbird

Ex-moderator
#40
Sep 28, 2013
Chill time.

There's a few over-heated discussions at the moment, so if we can't get back to attacking the issues and not the person, I'm going to have to take drastic action involving icebergs.
 
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