Analysis: With Witcher 3 CDPR no longer treat the players like adults [SPOILERS]

[Rawls]

Wild Hunt/ Aen Elle were just not explained in more detail... thats the main issue. there is a lot of background info about whats happening and why they are after Ciri (both Avallach and Eredin) but game never actually links these up for players, but leaves it for speculation.

Ciri explicitly says why Eredin is after her in the Isle of the Mists. When he wants to abduct your daughter, use her to start an invasion of your world, and potentially kill her in the process, his motivations aren't really that important IMO.

I want more than just their intentions, that was pretty well established from the get go, and frankly not that interesting to me. I wanted to understand Eredin as a person/character, what makes him tick, his management style in leading the Wild Hunt etc,. I wanted to know more about the other Wild Hunt members, their background stories, what they think of their leader and why they follow him so loyally. I wanted to know all of this in relation to Geralt and Ciri, because this is the primary focus for W3.

I get that we might want to see what makes him tick, but why would Geralt? In the context of the story, discovering this would be very difficult (I have advocated previously that this could have been done with a Ciri Flashback mission to Tir na Lia at the end of "Through Time and Space," describing the events that transpired in "The Lady of the Lake") but as far as understanding what makes him tick now, I don't think the protagonists really care under the circumstances by the time we get to the game.

 

[Maerd]

Morally grey choices/characters and side stories are aplenty in the Witcher 3, they're just not as noticeable since they don't feature as much in the main story branch.

Did I day they weren't present at all? Read it again. My disappointment was towards existence of stupid evil main characters, whose motivations are the same as villains from the children's stories: being evil for the sake of evilness, which, consequently, leads to primitive and obvious black and white choices with strictly better choice present. If you're a fan of superhero comics you'll feel right at home here but that doesn't mean it is a mature content.

As for the 'dumbing' down of politics, I would prefer to describe it as 'streamlining' the story a bit.

As I just wrote right above your post: streamlining would have been avoiding political themes like in HoS, not making it stupid. They left a lot of politics there but made it stupid, which is worse than not including it.

Politics for the sake of politics can easily bog down the pacing of both the gameplay and story

I see you're giving an expert opinion here. Then let's start with examples of games with the politics was for the sake of politics and where it ruined a gameplay and a story. Please.

I can see CDPR only included what was necessary in relation to Geralt's journey to find Ciri, why do we need to know anything else?

Because we all can see there were no side quests in the game... /sarcasm

Geralt is not a politician, I see no issues with bypassing the intricacies of the political game in order to put more focus on the story and characters at hand.

Reminder: the absence of politics is not equal to bad representation of politics.

If you're comparing the game's writing to Andrzej Sapkowski's novels and lore

Novels and lore are important but I compared TW3 to previous witcher games.

That said, there is plenty to improve on and CDPR is still a fairly young company

Incorrect, they are over 15 years old and, at the moment, they are the top CRPG maker in the world.

I think the bigger issue here is that you're comparing literature to a video game with very little understanding of how a story in a video game is different than what is written for a book.

You need to pay more attention to details. The phrase about the literature was my counterargument against the statement that entertainment media is subjective therefore cannot be objectively evaluated. It was not about comparison to TW3 in any way.

I'm not saying W3's writing is anywhere perfect (I'll be the first to admit it has plot issues), but to call it "childish" is grossly simplifying its issues and to overlook the remarkable achievement it is as a complete package.

Again, you're not paying attention to details. I called it teenage oriented, like many other games, but still the best RPG available today. This is quite a difference from calling the game childish, don't you think? The witcher games stood out of the crowd because they were adult oriented and it was one of their distinctive feature, a difference maker. TW3, with exception of HoS, lost its main attribute, which was the reason why those games were loved so much by many.

Radovid is far more interesting as a villainous psychopath than he is as a King and ruler of Redania

I suspect you're in minority here.

 

[Rawls]

My disappointment was towards existence of stupid evil main characters, whose motivations are the same as villains from the children's stories: being evil for the sake of evilness, which, consequently, leads to primitive and obvious black and white choices with strictly better choice present.

Eredin wasn't evil for the sake of being evil. It is explicitly explained by Ciri that Eredin wants to use her powers to transport an army from his world to conquer Geralts world in order to escape the annihilation of his world. Saving your people by killing other people is certainly morally flawed, but I don't think it's just evil for the sake of being evil.

 

[Garrison72]

Eredin wasn't evil for the sake of being evil. It is explicitly explained by Ciri that Eredin wants to use her powers to transport an army from his world to conquer Geralts world in order to escape the annihilation of his world. Saving your people by killing other people is certainly morally flawed, but I don't think it's just evil for the sake of being evil.

I don't even recall Ciri saying that. Really, one or two more sentences on the ship where he finally talks to Geralt would have gone a long way.

 

[Rawls]

I posted the exact quote a few pages back. Here it is again:

Geralt: What's Eredin after? What's he want from you?

Ciri: What everyone wants - to control my powers. His home world faces annihilation. Eredin's decided to invade ours. Brilliant wouldn't you say? Can't achieve much on his own, so he needs to bring in an army. Except his navigators can't possibly move him and thousands of Anne Elle between planes. Their abilities won't allow it.

Geralt: Whereas yours will ...

Ciri: Exactly. And if I die in the process ... well that's a necessary sacrifice.

Here's a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyEVBGW0Y40

The specific quote starts around 1:45 into the clip.

 

[Maerd]

I don't even recall Ciri saying that.

To hear that you need no initiate a dialogue with Ciri outside of any quests and ask additional questions, and, since the window of such opportunity is pretty short, most people didn't hear that. But that doesn't save Eredin from being one-dimensional. The argument that he was better represented in books doesn't cut it.

 

[cyberpunkforever]

i completed the base game 4 times and the expansions, i can say cd projekt does treat players like adults,in the expansions a bit more than in the base game

 

[Maerd]

i can say cd projekt does treat players like adults,in the expansions a bit more than in the base game

True. HoS is an adult game, B&W is back to being teenage oriented but better than the base game in that regard.

---------- Updated at 02:17 AM ----------

Here's a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyEVBGW0Y40

The specific quote starts around 1:45 into the clip.

I saw that in the game. And how does it make Eredin a deep character?

 

[RezoInverse]

Saving your people by killing other people is certainly morally flawed, but I don't think it's just evil for the sake of being evil.

True. Even Avallach says that Eredin just went ruled by the fear of the White Frost.

 

[Tangsta]

entertainment media is subjective therefore cannot be objectively evaluated.

Of course, except I don't see much objectivity in your approach. Complaining about game polish, release dates and framerate performance is objective, saying you don't like how certain details were omitted or not, or how certain characters are portrayed is, in fact, very subjective.

What I mostly see is a long winding rant that W3 isn't the game that you wanted, and not that it is objectively bad. You don't think the irony of you complaining about all these details, yet still admitting this is "the best RPG out there" belies your argument that this is an objective analysis?

I called it teenage oriented, like many other games

Final fantasy is Teen oriented, W3 is definitely adult-oriented. Can you name me another teen oriented game that deals with themes of homosexuality, torture, rape and mutilation? Not to mention being able to visit brothels or accept sex as a reward is actually illegal for a video game in some countries.

I get that we might want to see what makes him tick, but why would Geralt? In the context of the story, discovering this would be very difficult (I have advocated previously that this could have been done with a Ciri Flashback mission to Tir na Lia at the end of "Through Time and Space,"

I recall there was a cut mission from the game (yes the devs actually went through the trouble of creating this mission) that involved Geralt using a spell to look like a Wild Hunt soldier and infiltrated the Wild Hunt leaders. In this quest, the game was to explore Eredin and the Wild Hunt members as characters, rather than just plot points. Given these guys are the primary instigator of events in W3, I have no idea why this quest was cut, and subsequently after multiple opportunities in DLC and Expansions, why it was never put back in.

Frankly, I really don't care what their excuse was, Eredin was a damn important character, much like Olgierd was to HOS and Detlaff and Syanna was to B&W. I don't care how they did it, his character exploration was something I feel very strongly needed to be done. Period.

 

[Maerd]

Of course, except I don't see much objectivity in your approach.

You failed in trolling.

Can you name me another teen oriented game that deals with themes of homosexuality, torture, rape and mutilation?

Dragon Age games are exactly what you need. Besides, where did you find the rape theme in TW3? It disappeared after TW2, because it's too damaging for your tender age, so, it was not included.

 

[Tangsta]

You failed in trolling.


Dragon Age games are exactly what you need. Besides, where did you find the rape theme in TW3? It disappeared after TW2, because it's too damaging for your tender age, so, it was not included.

It's not at the forefront, but I do recall reading a few notes/letters pertaining to certain characters experiencing rape and the drama that follows such an ordeal. Not hard to imagine such a thing occurring during times of war and in this type of world.

Funny post you have there, instead of attacking my arguments you've decided to attack me personally. For someone who's been complaining about lack of maturity, you've failed to display it yourself. From my experience, that's usually a sign you have no real counterarguments. I accept your surrender.

 

[Maerd]

It's not at the forefront, but I do recall reading a few notes/letters pertaining to certain characters experiencing rape and the drama that follows such an ordeal. Not hard to imagine such a thing occurring during times of war and in this type of world.

Not only in the forefront, but it's also missing in the background and even underground. It's non-existent. Compare it to TW2 where rape is a commonplace, it's well in context, and nobody is shy to talk about it.

Funny post you have there, instead of attacking my arguments you've decided to attack me personally. For someone who's been complaining about lack of maturity, you've failed to display it yourself. From my experience, that's usually a sign you have no real counterarguments. I accept your surrender.

You failed at trolling again. You may try your juvenile baiting on somebody who's not twice your age.

 

[Rawls]

Moderator: Disagreement is fine. Name calling and implicit insults are not. Please keep it civil. Carry on.

 

[Sephira]

e. Geralt restrained his promiscuity in the witcher 3 game (per hour of gameplay). Why would he do that? He cannot impregnate and cannot catch any diseases, on the other hand he severely risks his life and can die every day, therefore for him it makes way less sense to build permanent relationships than having random encounters. Sex for him has the same consequences as hugging with the same woman. But yeah, since teenagers won't understand the difference between a sterile mutant and themselves, CDPR made sure Geralt's advantures won't give teenage players bad ideas.

:rofl:

Didn't expect to read this again, I overall agree with some of your points but this caught me unprepared because it's like you force Geralt's promiscuity because he is sterile sooo he surely HAVE TO BE a sex machine with every female character he meets.. It's almost as bad as Polygon SJW politics.

Don't bring up W1 cards because that was optional as well, and I loved W1 so don't take me as a moralist or a teenager please. And no no sir, I am not trolling you either. Don't mention black and white, as your point proved you have double standards when judging some game aspects under that "black and white" light. Because you, in this case, judged the game character, right? The game character you can be, not the literary character, amrite?

It's a shame that a fine analysis like yours fell at the very last point. Because overall I didn't enjoy the "hand holding" in some quests, I am mad at Dijkstra brainfart, I am mad at the Wild Hunt, but thank Melitele that happened only in the 3rd act. W3 is by no means a bad game at all.

 

[Maerd]

you force Geralt's promiscuity because he is sterile sooo he surely HAVE TO BE a sex machine with every female character he meets.

Where did you find in my quote that he HAS TO or where I wrote that EVERY female should be available? Show me, please. You see, I didn't invent Geralt character, he was taken from the books and to be consistent you have to follow the lore and common sense. In the books he's promiscuous and it makes sense why. So, what's the reason for him to behave differently in the game?

Don't bring up W1 cards because

As you can see, you're bringing it up, not me. If you want my opinion on sex cards in TW1: it was over the top, some encounters didn't make sense.

Don't mention black and white, as your point proved you have double standards when judging some game aspects under that "black and white" light. Because you, in this case, judged the game character, right? The game character you can be, not the literary character, amrite?

Sorry, I didn't understand what you're trying to say here. What did I judged "black an white" and where you found a double standard?

W3 is by no means a bad game at all.

I've never said that TW3 is a bad game. More than that, I actually said that it's currently the best RPG game ever despite many flaws. You can find it in my original post. But it is teenage oriented game because of the points I specified.

 

[Sephira]

Where did you find in my quote that he HAS TO or where I wrote that EVERY female should be available? Show me, please. You see, I didn't invent Geralt character, he was taken from the books and to be consistent you have to follow the lore and common sense. In the books he's promiscuous and it makes sense why. So, what's the reason for him to behave differently in the game?


As you can see, you're bringing it up, not me. If you want my opinion on sex cards in TW1: it was over the top, some encounters didn't make sense.


Sorry, I didn't understand what you're trying to say here. What did I judged "black an white" and where you found a double standard?


I've never said that TW3 is a bad game. More than that, I actually said that it's currently the best RPG game ever despite many flaws. You can find it in my original post. But it is teenage oriented game because of the points I specified.

Bringing up as an example for "promiscuity" of course. Since it's like W1 set a record for it. Some didn't make sense for me either, other did, others were just so funny to miss them, but being it optional, it's you as a gamer who can be that Geralt.

The very complaining about Geralt's supposed promiscuity said it all, it's not me who has written that, I can't understand at all what it would have to do with mature themes. Black and White is referred to this very point, again.

The option to have less encounters fits Geralt's character progression, and the gamer's as well. It's not like W3 is devoided of it, but there is no sense to want more, if you ask me.

 

[Maerd]

The very complaining about Geralt's supposed promiscuity said it all, it's not me who has written that, I can't understand at all what it would have to do with mature themes. Black and White is referred to this very point, again.

And why Geralt's promiscuity should be a prohibited theme? It is a mature theme, immature people cannot discuss it seriously. We can discuss not only Geralt's but also how CDPR out of the blue converted Dandelion into the faithful man in TW3 whom he never ever was. Dandelion's promiscuity is different from Geralt's by the fact that Geralt is responsible but Dandelion is narcissistic and doesn't care about consequences. But the root of dumping promiscuity is the same, the game was made teen friendly.

The option to have less encounters fits Geralt's character progression, and the gamer's as well. It's not like W3 is devoided of it, but there is no sense to want more, if you ask me.

Here we disagree. I my humble opinion Geralt's "progression" as a man ended about 50 years ago of his lifetime. The older people get more conservative they become and cannot just change, they tend to stick to how they did it for many years, therefore Geralt is just Geralt as he always was. You could have a point if Geralt was 18 years old in TW1.

 

[Sephira]

And why Geralt's promiscuity should be a prohibited theme? It is a mature theme, immature people cannot discuss it seriously. We can discuss not only Geralt's but also how CDPR out of the blue converted Dandelion into the faithful man in TW3 whom he never ever was. Dandelion's promiscuity is different from Geralt's by the fact that Geralt is responsible but Dandelion is narcissistic and doesn't care about consequences. But the root of dumping promiscuity is the same, the game was made teen friendly.

Prohibited? Lolwut.

For the love of Melitele, it's not prohibited but saying that the game is devoided of mature sex themes just because the non existent Geralt's promiscuity is not a theme it's pretty ridicolous if you ask me. It's something a player can do, that's all. Geralt can be both, but saying he is 100% into promiscuity and not having the slightest idea it can diverge from this point, it's like not considering the original character at all

Anyway, W3 has enough sex encounters to satisfy this aspect, so I can't really see where your problem is. Muh more sex scenes W2 had even less of that, but I cannot find any complains on that.
Dandelion converted? Sure, it's not like there is a quest when you ask all his lovers where could he be.

It is a mature theme, immature people cannot discuss it seriously.

Ha-ha I see it now. It's your catchphrase.

Here we disagree. I my humble opinion Geralt's "progression" as a man ended about 50 years ago of his lifetime. The older people get more conservative they become and cannot just change, they tend to stick to how they did it for many years, therefore Geralt is just Geralt as he always was. You could have a point if Geralt was 18 years old in TW1.

I think we disgree on all. But I sense again some of your psychology discussion here. Geralt in W1 is amnesiac, so that's the same of having most his life canceled, apart from muscle memory. Hence 18 years old on some aspects.
Which Geralt anyway? Game character the player wants to play? Fair enough, but only that.

 

[Maerd]

W2 had even less of that, but I cannot find any complains on that.

Indeed there are no complaints there because the representation was made in mature way. In TW3 sexual encounters were made for people who giggle when they hear the word 'sex'.

Dandelion converted? Sure, it's not like there is a quest when you ask all his lovers where could he be.

What lovers? Are you sure you paid attention to dialogues? They were not his lovers at all, he just getting from them either help or information trying to charm them and that's it.

it's not prohibited but saying that the game is devoided of mature sex themes just because the non existent Geralt's promiscuity is not a theme it's pretty ridicolous if you ask me.

Not 'just because'. My list of reasons why is pretty long, you're trying to blow one point out on dozen out of proportion. It's not mature game because of ALL those reasons, not because if just this one.