Analyzing every Anti-Weather / Weather-Support card

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wildkeny;n8967450 said:
Currently, to make weather supporting monsters balanced, most of these units have relatively low power themselves, which makes weather hardly a winning condition. If weather effects get weakened, either by adding weather immunity to various units, or lowering the damage, then CDPR need to overhaul half of the monster fraction to keep them still playable. If you look at the top leader board, very few are still using weather decks. If weather is such a great way to overpower your opponents, why wouldn't we see more weather decks at high levels. In my opinion, it's more of a problem for low level opponents when they don't have a good deck with high power units to fight through weather.

Monster should be the faction with the most weather immune units anyways. It would be actually a buff to the archtype; no more foglets dying to fog, hound/giants/nithral dying to frost, water had/drowner to rain and so on and so forth.

And the top deck at the moment its the axeman+weather one.
 
Laveley;n8967520 said:
Monster should be the faction with the most weather immune units anyways. It would be actually a buff to the archtype; no more foglets dying to fog, hound/giants/nithral dying to frost, water had/drowner to rain and so on and so forth.

And the top deck at the moment its the axeman+weather one.

Weather immunity wouldn't solve the lower base power issue of monster cards though. And it would be super boring for mirroring weather decks, where either side can't hurt the other by using weather and simply compete with each other on the petty base value of monster cards...
 
wildkeny;n8967100 said:
You forgot to mention weather decks typically suffer in not having enough tempo by themselves, especially in high level games, unless adding crones to your deck. But again, deck thinning using foglets + wild hunt hound are highly unstable, adding crones to your deck you get a very high chance to get multiple foglets, both hounds and frost or multiple crones in your starting pull and how are you going to deal with that?
With Dagon decks hitting the number one spot on the ladder multiple times for a couple of patches now, mulliganning the cards that clog your hand away doesn't appear to be a big issue. Sometimes you'll get stuck with a frost or two in hand, which will still get a lot of value. You tend to run into problems sometimes when saving crones for round 3, and even then you see all 3 crones played on 3 more often than not.

It is laughable that you guys are expecting anti-weather cards can be as good as weather supporting cards. If this were the case, what's the whole point of using a weather deck? Making anti-weather as good as weather supporting means total destroy of weather monster fraction and making the already struggling wild hunt fraction become non-exist.
Vicovaro Medic counters Queensguard decks. It deals serious damage to them and keeps them in check. It's ridiculous to expect every single deck in the game to run 5~6 anti-weather cards just because weather exists, and it's more ridiculous that teching so much anti-weather into your deck would still put you in a disfavored position against weather. If your deck relies on a single gimmick, a deck that's teched specifically to counter it should have a higher win-rate, especially since that deck loses a lot of strength by including those cards.
 
wildkeny;n8968180 said:
Weather immunity wouldn't solve the lower base power issue of monster cards though. And it would be super boring for mirroring weather decks, where either side can't hurt the other by using weather and simply compete with each other on the petty base value of monster cards...

First of all, i wouldnt either call low power base a problem. One of monsters factions "theme" is low base power units which can either get big by consume shenanigans or just flood the board while capitalizing from weather while being weather immune themselves (or, at least was).


Thing is; with weather rework, immunities gone and every faction being able to spam weather, monsters was actually one, if not the, faction which was most affected by it, not just because it lost one exclusive archetype, but because weather hurts now most the low power base units, whereas on the CB was just the opposite, it was a tool against high powered rows and units. So, than again, the problem is not monsters having low base power units, the problem is every single faction on the game being able to spam weather and monster is suffering from this because it has some low power base units without weather immunities.

As for your other argument, its a non-argument really... "fun" is something subjective (particularly, one of the most "fun" match-ups for me was on the days of ST "squirrel battles" against each other, good old days!) and if you dont like low power units you shouldnt being playing them on the first place.
 
Why would Archgriffin, Nauzicaa Standard Bearer and Vriheld Brigande be bad cards, but Blue Stripes Scout as a good card for weather counters? They are all weather clears with an extra ability. It's because you ignored the weather aspect and focused the assessment on the extra ability.

But I think you have the wrong stance on weather itself, stated in the opening paragraph. Weather isn't balanced at all and it isn't a fun mechanic to play into. Weather unanswered can be devastating. The amount of tempo it can have is gold level, not counting the counters that opponents need to have. Weather does more than just damage too, it forces suboptimal plays, ruining how a deck functions. Top played cards are ones that forces opponents to play a certain way, suboptimally, and weather does that.

My idea is to have weather only do 2 damage on a row as the max. For Fog and Rain, only 1 unit can be damaged, like how RNR functions. For Frost, have it damage the lowest unit by 1 and the highest unit by 1; and if there is only one unit on the row, have it be damaged by 2 (it's both the highest and lowest unit).

Fixing the weather should be priority over the support cards.

Another idea for weather balancing: Have weather go off (on both sides) on every player's turns at the same time, or same phase of a turn. This could increase the damage of weather if 2 damage limit nerf is too much. Just a mechanic change idea.
 
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Laveley;n8968440 said:
First of all, i wouldnt either call low power base a problem. One of monsters factions "theme" is low base power units which can either get big by consume shenanigans or just flood the board while capitalizing from weather while being weather immune themselves (or, at least was).

I am not talking about consume monster cards. Consume decks are fine. I am talking about the other half monster cards + wild hunt.

Laveley;n8968440 said:
Thing is; with weather rework, immunities gone and every faction being able to spam weather, monsters was actually one, if not the, faction which was most affected by it, not just because it lost one exclusive archetype, but because weather hurts now most the low power base units, whereas on the CB was just the opposite, it was a tool against high powered rows and units. So, than again, the problem is not monsters having low base power units, the problem is every single faction on the game being able to spam weather and monster is suffering from this because it has some low power base units without weather immunities.

This is probably true, although I think it affects more on consume monster decks, based on my own experience.

Laveley;n8968440 said:
As for your other argument, its a non-argument really... "fun" is something subjective (particularly, one of the most "fun" match-ups for me was on the days of ST "squirrel battles" against each other, good old days!) and if you dont like low power units you shouldnt being playing them on the first place.

The problem is, there are hardly any high base power units within monster faction. I consider 9 power as an average base power for a bronze unit. Above 9, it is an above average valuable bronze. Below 9 it is under-powered. Strip the weather effects, most weather monster cards have a base power around 5-7. Even with foglets flooding the board, it is merely 6 power points. Unlike other factions, monsters lack buffing units who can buff a bronze way above 9. Monsters go the opposite way, using weather as a de-buffing method to counter other factions. Therefore, weather effect should be at least as powerful as any buffing effect from other factions.
 
wildkeny;n8975580 said:
I am not talking about consume monster cards. Consume decks are fine. I am talking about the other half monster cards + wild hunt.

I know you didnt. I was just explaining two of the monsters archetypes, one of them being swarm and other consume.

wildkeny;n8975580 said:
The problem is, there are hardly any high base power units within monster faction. I consider 9 power as an average base power for a bronze unit. Above 9, it is an above average valuable bronze. Below 9 it is under-powered. Strip the weather effects, most weather monster cards have a base power around 5-7. Even with foglets flooding the board, it is merely 6 power points. Unlike other factions, monsters lack buffing units who can buff a bronze way above 9. Monsters go the opposite way, using weather as a de-buffing method to counter other factions. Therefore, weather effect should be at least as powerful as any buffing effect from other factions.

Foglets arent "just" a 6 strength play. They are a 6 strength play which thins your deck by 3 and deducts at least -2 from your opponent with a potentially higher deduction if he dont clean the fog.

I'm very aware that monsters have low base power compared to other factions, specially SK. But, than again, that's part of the "theme" of the faction as i already explained. And weather, as it is right now, its as powerful as any buffing effect from other factions; the prove of this is that other factions prefer to use weather as well!!! The problem here is that weather now hurts monsters as would hurt any other faction.

Seriously though, if you cant see how weather immunities would be highly favorable to monsters, than i dont really have nothing more to say to you.
 
Laveley;n8976580 said:
Seriously though, if you cant see how weather immunities would be highly favorable to monsters, than i dont really have nothing more to say to you.

That is only if weather immunities are monster specific characteristics.
 
You forgot to mention the Immune Boost card which is the best counter to frost at the moment. Also play fewer Units on one row. The system right now is vastly superior to what it used to behave like.
 
I completly agree on the fact that weather is broken atm. It really needs to get fixed soon, because it's not really fun to swim through weather.
ST? Weather, because ofc eithne
SK? Weather, with axeman
NR? Ofc weather
Monster? Don't even ask
NG is the only safe faction, if only it didn't took the NR spot (not used) after the patch
 
Redcoat2012;n8978360 said:
You forgot to mention the Immune Boost card which is the best counter to frost at the moment. Also play fewer Units on one row. The system right now is vastly superior to what it used to behave like.

Yes I didn't have enough experience playing with Immune Boost or against Immune Boost to include it. I actually cut my two Clear Skies from my deck and replaced them with Immune Boosts and they work much better. They're probably the second best card to counter weather after blue scout, the problem with Immune Boost though is that it only works in certain decks that can reliably have 3 units stacked next to one another. Running it in my hipster 1 bear control-Skellige is easy enough thanks to Morkvarg and Olgierd.
 
Great post. I have been doing alot of theory crafting to explore the game further. I have seen the gameplay at 3K MMR. I understand why people do some things, and others don't. This post echo's some of the things I have been seeing.

I have said this before in posts prior. I am not sure as to what the proper balance method is. All I know is that weather is too easy to spam. It's even easier to spam than Rot Tossers. There is too many cards that spawn it, or can pull weather from your deck.

If you look at an Eredin or Dagon Frost deck.. It's usually packing at minimum 3 Frost, plus 1-3 spawnable weather. If they have Renew you can add 1 to that. The limit of bronzes is 3 so if you are playing Monsters, NG, or NR, the most you can do is clear half of that. You would have to bring First Light's if you want to completely negate that. If you do though you make yourself vulnerable to non Weather decks.

On a side note.. I have been working on an idea if its of interest. I was thinking of getting the people together who make awesome posts like this. I am planning to restart my Twitch Stream. If I could get people in to my private Discord, I could either broadcast what you say through my Stream, or I can copy and paste what is said. Either way it would be real time discussion.

There isn't alot of Gwent Streamers (in comparison to other categories) so it would benefit the community as well. Perhaps this could become a reality one day

 
valcat;n8979320 said:
Yes I didn't have enough experience playing with Immune Boost or against Immune Boost to include it. I actually cut my two Clear Skies from my deck and replaced them with Immune Boosts and they work much better. They're probably the second best card to counter weather after blue scout, the problem with Immune Boost though is that it only works in certain decks that can reliably have 3 units stacked next to one another. Running it in my hipster 1 bear control-Skellige is easy enough thanks to Morkvarg and Olgierd.

You really need to reconsider your stance on the ST weather remover, the movement effect has synergy with some ST cards but more importantly it can move the enemy which can at times prove to be extremely cost efficient. The only 'weather clear' card I'd argue is bad would be Skellige's armoursmith as it doesn't so much as clear the weather but restore the damage caused by it, this can however make it extremely cost effective if used later to maximise its impact.

Weather compared to closed beta is nerfed. Perhaps people have been quick to forget the impact old ragh + epidemic had of completely wiping boards or how aeromancy turned the game into a 'get the last say in the final round and win'. It's change has been positive for the game on the whole, a few mistakes have been made that are largely skewering the whole system however. The most obvious would be the deck thinning weather summoning cards like Aretuza's and Hounds. These two cards would be far less obnoxious if they didn't draw the weather cards from the deck, the thinning aspect makes these cards far more powerful than they need to be. Another problem may actually be the sequence in when weather procs, other problems would be the Gold weather cards but they're so nerfed that they're hardly worth mentioning at the moment.

Ironically the best counter to weather right now is to build decks without weather clearing. Fog and Rain need to tick 5 turns minimum to over come the 9 strength that bronze cards appear to be balanced around. You may very well be giving the opponent greater value out of their weather effects in some scenarios but in weather-less match ups you aren't left with a half dozen weather remove cards that provide lesser power, furthermore weather spammers are placed in a position where they are punished for simply having too much weather.

The largest problem with weather is more feelings based than numerical, it ironically most negatively impacts some of the more popular decks. Fog and rain only really becomes a problem when it gets double procs, Skellige storm is powerful but it is ultimately a silver which will usually take 2 but often 3 turns to break the 10-11 point silver baseline if its cleared asap it will only ever at most do 6 points of damage. The biggest offender is of course Frost and as the problem compounds as more units are played it can quickly become 6 points per turn damage effect, the answer of course is to use one of the removal cards on rows affected by it if your card count on the row equals 3 or more or use the immune boosts to provide a few turns of immunity from its effect and sit through it.

Skellige whilst arguably the most popular faction just happens to be the most negatively impacted faction from weather on the whole, it does not surprise me that when people say its a problem they happen to be SK players. Lacking a weather removing weather clear and largely playing on the front row due too the insane power of the bears + Morkvarg and the an craite Skirmishers the popular meta SK decks play right into the hand of the weather user. The answer as much as SK players hate to hear it (I live with one) is to play less on one row. Don't be to greedy by trying to double down on Morkvarg by running a 3 ship conga line into said mork being buffed by the wild boar with Olgierd in the wings, and if you really must stack the front this hard don't do throw savage bears on top of this. If you turn frost into an 8 damage tick you've only yourself to blame. You really should be aiming to place no more than 3-4 cards on a single row, and these cards should ideally be of varying value - so not 3 savage bears.

First light is just fine as a multi row solution to weather (so white frost/ragh), the rally stops it from becoming a dead card but again if your using it to clear one row you're overlooking the far better options. It could perhaps turn into a 1 strength high armor card that exists for 1-2 turns after use clearing weather before it banishes itself but honestly weather spamming decks are just as poor as the aforementioned row stacking ones so I don't see why they need to be targeted.

The last thing I'd mention is the sequence in which weather effects trigger, by making them trigger at the start of the affected players turn you stop the affected player from clearing it before it deals some damage. I personally wouldn't change this as weather effects deserve to trigger at the very least once as 7 strength row clearing cards exist.
 
An addendum: Another weather hotfix has come and gone and the Dagon weather deck is not only still tier 1, it also beats up other decks so badly that I face it 70% of the games at rank 18. The weather "nerfs" barely helped, and to my opinion it's because they mostly touched on tweaking weather rather than the real problem: The crazy power disparity of weather-support cards and the weakness of anti-weather cards, making them a terrible tech-against choice. A few people play Scoia'tael or Nilfgaard but mostly at top 1000 you face weather, weather, weather. I'm not sure if the game feels better now at lower ranks, but at 18 I feel like I'm pressured to play as monsters or nothing at all due to the overpoweredness of weather support cards. I'm shocked that people even complained about the nerfs. Frost, Fog, Wild Hunt Hound, Harpy, Caranthir, all cards that were nerfed and are still played in the number 1 deck. And yes, there are big problems with how only Monsters can flood the board making neutral cards like Triss:Butt, Yen, Bekker's Twisted Mirror and Thunderbolt potion way better for them than any other faction, but the fact remains that the deck is still far stronger than any other because weather-support cards continue being a one-and-a-half in one cards. At the same time, anti-weather cards are weak and do not offer a punishing effect that counters weather.
 
I am not enjoying the game at the moment at all due to weather decks. Having to build around weather is a complete pain in the ass and you don't gain anything. Weather is simply too strong atm. The only way to beat it is to build a deck dedicated to beating it and then you beat nothing else ever.
 
Arragoth

Are you saying that even with the recent nerf you still think weather is too powerful? A full weather deck can still cause quite a lot of damage, but it isn't as devastating as it was before. Most of the time, you can just out-buff weather while keeping a Mage or a Clear Sky Unit as backup. The trick is not to clear weather too fast and wait for the right moment.

So, I am wondering:
- Which deck are you playing?
- Are you playing casual or ranked? And if ranked, which rank?
- How often do you encounter weather decks?
 
4RM3D;n9106530 said:
Arragoth

Are you saying that even with the recent nerf you still think weather is too powerful? A full weather deck can still cause quite a lot of damage, but it isn't as devastating as it was before. Most of the time, you can just out-buff weather while keeping a Mage or a Clear Sky Unit as backup. The trick is not to clear weather too fast and wait for the right moment.

So, I am wondering:
- Which deck are you playing?
- Are you playing casual or ranked? And if ranked, which rank?
- How often do you encounter weather decks?

I am level 8 still playing casual. I see weather decks about 8 out of 10 matches. I am running primarily a dwarf resilient deck with three copies of clear skies and lots of buffs.
 
Arragoth

I guess that weather decks are still the fan favorites for beginners. I rarely run into a weather deck nowadays while playing on rank 16.
 
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