Anyone thinking Cyberpunk would be better game without rpg elements

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Off-topic again. The topic is Cyberpunk 2077, not whether X game belongs in Y genre.

Please stay on topic, or create a separate thread for the off-topic discussion.

Any further off-topic in this thread will be removed.
 
Cyberpunk is not really a "shooter" ;)

What? CP77 is definitely 100% a shooter with rpg elements tacked on. Hell, the gun play in CP77 is better then most modern FPS games

No, Cyberpunk 2077 is similiar to Mass Effect and of course The Witcher and many other RPGs with real time combat (instead of tactical combat or real time combat with pause). A shooter for example would not have dialogue options or the possibility to sell loot and buy equipment.

Is it really that relevant what label you attach to the game? Many shooters have a progression system. Many have loot to some degree. I mean, there's a whole subgenre called looter shooter. Many shooters have classes, too. Some shooters even have interesting characters and story, some even allow you to make some decisions. And so on.

That being said, CP2077 would still work with just half the loot, without any attributes, without a progression system, without different playstyles aka "classes", and without the ability to make any choices. It might be a lesser experience overall, but it would still function. In theory, you could develop such a mod. On the other hand, if you remove the FPS part, you'd end up with an entirely different game.
And some, like the OP, believe that removing or scaling down some of these systems would make for a better experience overall.
 
And C2077 gameplay shares many points with Borderlands or Metro Exodus. And even could with Wolfenstein if they made an open world Wolfenstein.
The key word is "share" ;)
I currently play BD3 (again) and the story is just an excuse for the gameplay (that's why you can skip everything^^)
With your "logic" Cyberpunk could be considered as a driving simulation like Forza/Gran Tourismo because you can drive cars... That's wrong and Cyberpunk is not intended to be that :)

Cyberpunk is a Story driven game in first person (the "main and strong" point).
- With FPS gameplay elements.
- With RPG elements.
- With Driving.
So it "lack" of RPG elements, FPS gameplay and the driving is not as good as many games. But the story, which is matter of tastes, is great/awesome (unlike many games) :D

Edit : Unlike BD3, in Cyberpunk, you can "roleplay" how to fight (RPG). For me, stealth, knives, QHs and try to avoid to kill anyone. In BD3, it's "only" we shoot each other happily in "barbaric" mode until everyone is dead.

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And some, like the OP, believe that removing or scaling down some of these systems would make for a better experience overall.
I agree, probably for some players, it would be better (it's matter of tastes/preferences). For others it would be better with even more RPG elements (like KCD, I think).
But I'm not sure that the majority really share this point of view, I rather think that the majority want even "more" RPG elements ;)
 
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While I agree that some of the RPG elements could use a change, I wouldn't play the game without many of them.

Stats: If you don't have these, what would you use?

Skills: Same as above...if you don't have a skill tree and skill progression, how do you improve your character?

Gear: I'd like a couple of QoL changes in this area (we have a Perk that auto-disassembles junk, so why not one that can do the same for Common gear like guns and grenades?) but other than that, you don't really have an RPG without gear.

Leveled Loot: This is strictly a balance thing. Without it, every character would have all the best loot by level 10 or so (thanks to youtubers telling us where it is) or ALL of the loot would have to be totally random (so grinding for the best would be the norm). While I'm not keen on the idea of a pair of shoes that I can't put on until level 32, would changing this be worth the effort at this point?

Levels of opponents: Right now, I can start a new game, travel to someplace where all the bad guys have little skulls over them and get smoked in under ten seconds. It makes sense that you're not going to be able to take on every foe right away and I think the game reflects that rather well.

An RPG IS an RPG because of many of the elements you'd like to get rid of. I honestly don't know how you'd have a game without them.

If you have an RPG with levels and a numbers-based progression system forcing you to specialize in a certain area in order to keep up with the equally levelled enemies, then over the course of the game your character does not really meaningfully improve, but stays equally strong relative to their enemies in this area - and becomes worse in all others. In the beginning, you can use all types of weapons and hacks equally well. In the end, you're only good with one particular type. Your possibility space shrinks.
If you have a progression system that doesn't focus on increasing numbers, but unlocking new options to solve problems, then your possibility space expands.
And if you use such a more horizontal progression system, the need for lelleved enemies and all the balance problems that come along with that and that RPGs have been struggling with since forever automatically decreases.
Even without levels, attributes, levelled loot and enemy, your character can still become stronger over the course of the game by acquiring more powerful weapons (as in an assault rifle instead of a pistol instead of lvl 10 vs lvl 1 of the exact same pistol), armor, gadgets, cyberware, quickhacks, etc.
So it's possible. Just different. And there are mods, quite popular mods actually, for CP2077, that alter the game towards such a system.
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I agree, probably for some players, it would be better (it's matter of tastes/preferences). For others it would be better with even more RPG elements (like KCD, I think).
But I'm not sure that the majority really share this point of view, I rather think that the majority want even "more" RPG elements ;)

In this forum maybe. But overall the target audience for shooters and action adventures (with RPG elements) is probably much larger.

As for me personally, I'm neither for nor against RPG elements. But if there are RPG elements - or any other gameplay elements - I want them to enhance my experience, not worsen it. For me CP2077 is hit and miss here: Some are great, like some of the impactful decisions you can make, some are... well, some are like the level system that I'm complaining about here because in my opinion it doesn't fit to the gunplay, the world and the story.
 
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As for me personally, I'm neither for nor against RPG elements. But if there are RPG elements - or any other gameplay elements - I want them to enhance my experience, not worsen it. For me CP2077 is hit and miss here: Some are great, like some of the impactful decisions you can make, some are... well, some are like the level system that I'm complaining about here because in my opinion it doesn't fit to the gunplay, the world and the story.
I agree with this. Some of the RPG elements were a hit an miss but that boils down to CDPR's lack of understanding the tabletop game. I personally think they took the wrong RPG aspects such as putting an armour value on every clothing item.
 
...so by your definition Vampire the masquerade: bloodlines is not an RPG?
I didn't give any definition of what a RPG is or not. And I didn't introduce neither the notion of real time combat as a gameplay feature determining or not the RPG genre. I just answered that there was no point here.
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The key word is "share" ;)
I currently play BD3 (again) and the story is just an excuse for the gameplay (that's why you can skip everything^^)
With your "logic" Cyberpunk could be considered as a driving simulation like Forza/Gran Tourismo because you can drive cars... That's wrong and Cyberpunk is not intended to be that :)
I'm talking gameplay, you're not.
Even the narration in C2077 is not RPG's one. Except for few rare missions / quests, there are no choices. Each choice of dialogue lead to the same end. Different choices are just bonus content to obtain more informations and lore. No mechanics in that, no gameplay here. On the contrary of ME, Deus Ex, actual RPG in my opinion.
 
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I didn't give any definition of what a RPG is or not. And I didn't introduce neither the notion of real time combat as a gameplay feature determining or not the RPG genre. I just answered that there was no point here.
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You kind of did. Fallout and ME have pause therefore they are RPG. CP77 does not (which is false actually as you have the ME's pause menu with quickhacks one) thus it is FPS.
I'm talking gameplay, you're not.
Even the narration in C2077 is not RPG's one. Except for few rare missions / quests, there are no choices. Each choice of dialogue lead to the same end. Different choices are just bonus content to obtain more informations and lore. No mechanics in that, no gameplay here. On the contrary of ME, Deus Ex, actual RPG in my opinion.

.....sound like wonderful games. Could you link them, as I haven't played them?
 
The simple fact is most games these days don't fit into one very easily definable genre. Games these days are mostly hybrids of many different genres.

I'll take @LeKill3rFou's example of Borderlands 3. For no particular reason by the way. Sure, you can say it's a shooter but it's not. It's a hybrid. There is no debate that the loot aspect of the game is far more of an RPG element than a shooter element. The same can be said of it's class system or the talent trees or your ability to produce very specific and highly varied builds. To call the game a pure shooter is wrong. To call it a looter shooter is also wrong (less so but still) but so is calling it an RPG. Not to mention the latest (Tiny Tina's Wonderlands) introduced melee weapons allowing for even more build variety.

You can look at many other games throughout the last two decades and the lines between genres are constantly being blurred.

CP2077 is definitely one such hybrid. To call it a shooter is laughable. Saying it's a deep RPG would be equally as wrong. It also comes with a whole bunch of other features that are usually found in different genres.

Why does it even matter if a game is an RPG, or a shooter? Why can't it have elements of many different genres and all that matters is whether these elements come together well?

For CP2077, in my opinion, generally speaking all these different elements end up blending together pretty well and form a fairly cohesive final product.
 
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Hello, all. I know this is kind of a pretzel of thought, but we need to stay away from the "Is this game an RPG!?" discussion. That's not the topic. Nor is how we define the genre.

The topic is -- would the game have been better with no stats, no leveling up, no perks -- just a plain Shooter and open-world game.

If the topic continues to dive into the territory of, "This is what makes something an RPG. / No -- it's not that, it's this only. / Actually an RPG is this, and Shooter is that. / Etc..."

...that's what the locking tool is for.

The whole industry is confused as to what defines an RPG. But no one is confused as to what a Shooter is. Stick to the topic.
 
I do think, that eliminating RPG elements would result in a worse game . I feel like is trying to solve a problem (which CDPR has:lack of depth in RPG systems) by saying: its unsolvable. But the game is a sum or parts, and its subpar in other departments also.

Just imagine, that you strip all stats/levels/perks in character and follow the classical action adventure of story missions unlock new weapons,equipments (so you have progression) and then you can buy it in shops. If I look at the open world, that department is also lacking a lot compared with some known open-world action-adventure franchises in urban environments (The Witcher III was the same by the way)... so, eliminating the "RPG systems guys" would not solve that issue.

You can also say, no action-adventure just pure FPS... but you have the same problem, in combat CDPR is not at the level of dedicated shooters so eliminating the RPG elements will not put them on par with a dedicated shooter.

I do agree, that CDPR has a problem in the "RPG mechanics" side... but I don´t think is 100% fault of those guys. CP2077 is a story-driven RPGs relying heavily in scripted events for the storytelling .
You can not allow a lot of permutations to solve quests, you cannot add 16 levels of depth in dialogue based on stats... because relying on cinematics and fully voiced dialogue is expensive. So even if its easy to imagine a bunch of stats that allow to tackle quests in different forms (why do I need the flatbot?, I can go guns crazy, or stealth ninja, or my silver tongue Casanova can seduce the cleaning lady-or boy, give options is always better)...you will need to change how you deliver your storytelling (is why NPCs have plot armors, because they are needed at some cinematic). So unless the studio, and the writers decide to change the way they deliver the story the "systems "guys are limited to what they can offer... so is why the most non-linear parts are the Gigs, because they are isolated from the rest.
 
You should not forget that the TRPG the game is based on does not have levels or classes with tons powerfull special abilities. Each role has simply one special skill which determine their regular income and a single special ability:
  • Rockerboys can use Charismatic Inpact to influence their fans (and only their fans).
  • Solos can use Combat Awareness to gain some special boni, wich are similiar to the perks from the game but can be changed anytime.
  • Netrunners can use Interface for netrunning which only they can do.
  • Techs can use Maker to repair, build, upgrade and even invent equipment.
  • Medtechs can use Medicine for surgery and the use of medical tchnologies.
  • Medias can use Credibility to collect rumours and to determine the success of their published stories.
  • Execs can use Teamwork to gain corporate housing, corporate health insurance and a team of subordinates.
  • Lawmen can use Backup to call backup.
  • Fixers can use Operator to do what fixers do. ;)
  • Nomads can use Moto to increase their driving abilities and the number of vehicles they can use from their family's motorpool.
But the players are not limited to one role per character. It is possible to change the role if a character has reached rank 4 in the special skill of their role.
Many of these are very hard to implement into the game. Some of those roles do not fit into the story CDPR wanted to tell.

In my opinion CDPR made the right choice by not using the role and skill based levelless rules from the TRPG and replaced it with the same kind of rules used in many action RPGs. But I also belive that more RPG would have been better.
 
For CP2077, in my opinion, generally speaking all these different elements end up blending together pretty well and form a fairly cohesive final product.
Strong disagree on that. I think Cyberpunk is a perfect example of incohesive game that is less than sum of it's parts.
You have a :
- main storyline that forces extreme urgency early on in the game...yet majority of content is in exploration of the open world that has absolutely nothing to do with it
- worldbuilding and lore that portrays a believable, realistic setting...yet gameplay and rpg elements are much more similar to high fantasy, "cartoonish" looter/MMOs ( such as World of Warcraft, Borderlands, etc)
- Immersive sim elements through freeform gameplay and level design...but enemies have floating skull icons and shower the environment with magical, glowing items ( like some kind of human loot piñata)
-"gritty", down to earth setting that shows the world doesn't revolve around main characters..yet in gameplay everything revolves around V's level

It's like three completely different studios were trying to make their own, separate game: writers ( fully linear, cinematic, direct main storyline), artists, quest and level designers ( single player open world), and rpg/gameplay designers ( looter/MMO).

And let me repeat, again: I want CDPR to make rpgs. I want CDPR to make deeper, better rpgs.

But right now their "rpg elements" are done so poorly that they have more of a negative impact on other aspects of the game ( exploration, world building, difficulty, level design, immersion, economy) than actually contributing when it comes to depth of character expression, build diversity and world reactivity.

I think they simply need to hire different, better rpg team, especially someone more experienced/knowledgeable in role of lead rpg designer, like Josh Sawyer from Obsidian, who also wrote a short critique on CDPR's poor implementation of rpg mechanics:
 

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I respond to these hypotheticals the same way every time I see them here:

You're just asking for a different game.

For the most part, you're describing the GTA games, where you don't level up at all. Even just getting better guns doesn't really change anything and armour is a basic concept and not strictly an upgrade at all (it's no more or less the same as needing to keep on top of fuel for a car). For the most part, if you shoot something in the head then it dies and that's that.

Is it better? No. It's just different. I love playing GTA games. If they had RPG elements, I don't think I'd love them more. They'd just be different. Entirely out of place, if GTA VI was, for example, to introduce RPG elements... it'd be weird. But worse? Better? Nah.

The exact same logic can be applied to CP2077. It has RPG elements. That's it. If that bothers someone then well... it's not the game for them. If they begin to proclaim that it would be a better game without anything it has in it then that's their perogative (and on a smaller scale, I think some suggestions can absolutely be true). But suggesting removing its RPG elements would improve it in some way is much like saying a book about fixing cars would be better if it didn't have cars in it.

Obviously, if you don't like cars then that's true. For you.
 
No stats. No skills. No perks.
RPG can mean a whole lot of stuff. For me personally, good story telling carries roll playing. If there's no story, there's no need to play a role. I think important parts of an RPG are dialogue options, different outcomes of quests based on decision making (which includes dialogue options), parallel story lines, having to reload save files because of choices being made (mostly during dialogues but it could also be by actions), third person cutscenes, quest items not being marked as quest items, and the list goes on. Last but not least, I think skills and perks are very important, even for an Action-RPG.
 
You're just asking for a different game.

(...)

The exact same logic can be applied to CP2077. It has RPG elements. That's it. If that bothers someone then well... it's not the game for them. If they begin to proclaim that it would be a better game without anything it has in it then that's their perogative (and on a smaller scale, I think some suggestions can absolutely be true). But suggesting removing its RPG elements would improve it in some way is much like saying a book about fixing cars would be better if it didn't have cars in it.

My understanding is that the OPs criticicism is not really about the existence of certain RPG elements - mainly the progression system - but them being inconsequential at best or harming the experience at worst. And I agree with that.

The thing is, if you removed levels, levelled items and enemies, attributes, skills and perks, the game would largely play the same. Without levels, you just wouldn't have to switch out or upgrade gear all the time to keep it up to date, and you couldn't run into enemies that are way too easy or too hard. Attributes, skills and perks for the most part only give you small numerical bonuses, like 1% here, 5% there, or 10% under specific circumstances. You just don't feel that as player. Perks that meaningfully alter or expand gameplay are very rare. Once you decided for a certain playstyle - handguns and sneaking, for example - you can just dump all your points into the corresponding skill trees without spending much thought on it. Or don't spend them at all, doesn't matter much. It's all overshadowed by the level anyway. You never have to decide between unlocking cool ability A or B.

That you only have to do when it comes to which gun types and which cyberware you want to use. Which is why I would prefer to see these systems being the focus and being expanded - and levels, attributes, skills and perks overhauled or gone. But since I don't believe numbers-based progression systems mesh well with shooter gameplay on a fundamental level, rather gone I think.
 
My understanding is that the OPs criticicism is not really about the existence of certain RPG elements - mainly the progression system - but them being inconsequential at best or harming the experience at worst. And I agree with that.

The thing is, if you removed levels, levelled items and enemies, attributes, skills and perks, the game would largely play the same. Without levels, you just wouldn't have to switch out or upgrade gear all the time to keep it up to date, and you couldn't run into enemies that are way too easy or too hard. Attributes, skills and perks for the most part only give you small numerical bonuses, like 1% here, 5% there, or 10% under specific circumstances. You just don't feel that as player. Perks that meaningfully alter or expand gameplay are very rare. Once you decided for a certain playstyle - handguns and sneaking, for example - you can just dump all your points into the corresponding skill trees without spending much thought on it. Or don't spend them at all, doesn't matter much. It's all overshadowed by the level anyway. You never have to decide between unlocking cool ability A or B.

That you only have to do when it comes to which gun types and which cyberware you want to use. Which is why I would prefer to see these systems being the focus and being expanded - and levels, attributes, skills and perks overhauled or gone. But since I don't believe numbers-based progression systems mesh well with shooter gameplay on a fundamental level, rather gone I think.
Sadly this is kinda true. Not much change during leveling you just see a bit bigger numbers. Gunplay is sadly quite boring after awhile, it just doesnt really change from level 1 too 50. Was kinda suprised when the game came out that the talent trees was so flat and boring. 10% here 5% there.

I would rather still see more RPG in the game then remove it, like i said before. But i will agree that the current system isent that interesting.
 
Attributes, skills and perks for the most part only give you small numerical bonuses, like 1% here, 5% there, or 10% under specific circumstances. You just don't feel that as player. Perks that meaningfully alter or expand gameplay are very rare.
I don't agree with that :)
If you invest as things progress, maybe you don't feel it. But little bonuses + little bonuses make a significant difference at the end.

One example,
In my last playthrough (stealth, knives and handguns, low armor/health) so I invested only in these skills (nowhere else, so a bunch of perk points remaining)
I wanted to try "Don't Fear The Reaper" in 1.5.
  • So I picked up my fully modded and upgraded (level 50) Prototype Mark V (SMG). Obviously, absolulety no perk in the Assault skill and stealth is not an option in this ending.
  • And I (and the Prototype) felt damn weak, although it's normally, a damn powerful weapon.
  • Luckily (or not), I died quickly in the hall.
  • Before trying again, I invest massively in the Assault skill. So "only" a bunch of little bonuses, 10% here, 15% here, 10% headshot bonus there, so on.
  • And in the next try, I rolled on every enemies easily... It was like night and day.

So you can really feel it when you start from an underdevellopped skill to a full devellopped one :)
 
Where RPG elements start to fail, in my opinion, is when developers use the carrot chase method in the form of loot instead of progression through meaningful quests and encounters. The weapons in CP77 should not be tiered. Better equipment could have been completely reputation based with military grade gear only able to be purchased from the black market through a fixer or knowing someone on the inside who can get you said gear. To add more RPG elements, CDPR could have kept a little closer to the tabletop in terms of stats, skills and roles. Missed opportunity with not using the empathy stat to determine how much humanity you have to be able to cyber yourself up.
 
Sadly this is kinda true. Not much change during leveling you just see a bit bigger numbers. Gunplay is sadly quite boring after awhile, it just doesnt really change from level 1 too 50. Was kinda suprised when the game came out that the talent trees was so flat and boring. 10% here 5% there.
I'm under the impression, that they kind of fell into a trap of "wanting something thats elaborate but we don´t want the players to take any hard decision", so they don't allow for real "build" differentiation at the end.

Part of the problem with the system that they have in place, is that you need to split bonus in small % because you have FIFTY levels (anybody remembers when in computer RPGs level 10 or 20 was god like?).
You can have 50 levels and all the mix of attributes,skills and perks but then you cannot give points like candy. If they would have consolidated perks in a given tree into fewer perks per tree (so no 5% increment, but 25% increment granted by a perk), and grant less points per level (no perk points as bonus from skills) like 1 point every level and 2 points every 4 levels that you can spent either in attributes or perks (or grant a perk every 3 or 4 levels but no purchase in between) the system would have been more rewarding.
Itemization, is another beast... I don´t really like the system in place but there are toons of players who love this type of itemization so market rules here (sadly).
 
So I played through Divinity OG I & II, refreshed my knowledge about DeusEx and got back to CP2077 to second play-through where I play as netrunner. I quickly realised one thing. Netrunners (despite NetWatch being absolutely useless & pathetic) are unstoppable, especially with cyberdeck that spread quickhacks such as suicide or cyberphyosis. In Divinity OG everything has a counter - in terms of elementals cancelling (water nuliffy any poison on the ground/weapn and fire effects either on ground, player or weapon ) each other or shield/armour and protective spell. Also weather or environment boost abilities. Imagine a mantis blade killer boosted by inhalers or netrunner hijacking local node or server to increase his cyber-deck and cyber-implants capabilities.

Not to mention that Divinity has more freedom in terms of role-playing that CP2077. I was still trapped when rest of my mates were ravaging town...

In CP2077 literally that does not exist. Why does that matter to this discussion? Because games nowadays are literally stripped from any complexity and even CP2077 lacks "RPG" mechanics simple as rock, paper & scissors. You don't have anything that debuffs or nullifies other characters despite this game being settled in genre where you can have implants, modify your body with robotic part of the body or even wear exoskeletons/bodysuits/mecha like one cyberpsycho have had.

So going back to my original post in this topic - further removal of "RPG" mechanics would only hurt this game. I think that OP replied to my post with compering CP2077 to DeusEx. In second game you have tons of "RPG" mechanics including augmentations which are passive and active. Passive are almost identical to CP2077 skill points and perks, active are almost same as QH. Weapon mods and ammunition affects recoil, rate of fire, mags capacity and damage (including type i.e armour piercing). In CP2077 you are unstoppable, loot is random (including tier/rarity) and the open-world concept virtually doesn't help because you can find a quest where you find a body of legendary historic netrunner where you can obtain a epic quick-hack. Why, a side-quest with interesting story suddenly is a problem? Dunno, maybe because I already have had this quickhack looted from a random guy in The Wasteland. It feels like somebody didn't account for that or this quest was added as afterthought, because reward is just a generic loot you can loot from a mob.

Moreover in Divinity you can literally hack through the door using axe or magic and how long it takes purely depends on how strong you are. If you're a lumberjack with axe wooden door won't hold for long, same goes for experienced mage. In CP2077 you do have skill checks, but they feel extremely random like the rest of the game. Players with high enough engineering skill should be able to go through most of the obstacle using their salvage, crafting and engineering skills, same goes for net-runners and breach protocol, players who invested heavily into reflexes and body should be able to smash through most of the obstacles (especially with mantis blades with or without modification) or climb (removing ability to wall-run and climb was such a boomer...) to nearest point of entry if available. Instead you get a simplistic skill check point - 0 body to rip of a fence which you probably could cut through with a thermal monowire...

This game without even currently implemented simplistic mechanics would feel like a futuristic clone of Watch_Dogs or even worse clone of The Division...
 
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