WH40k and Warhammer are predominatly table top war games. not RPG's. People RP in them and warhammer even had a complete rpg game made for it but they are both wargames, not RPG's
They're RPG's that happen to have minatures for battle simulation. Battletech/Mechwarrior is another example. There are sourcebooks, people make stats for their armies, a lot of that stuff. They just work better as a more combat oriented style of video game.
Now if you had said AD&D I would have agreed with you, they did try just that ( https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/11187/advanced-dungeons-dragons-battlesystem) .. but warhammer and 40k.. the wargames came first and rpg's tacked on after.. in fact gamesworkshop still call themselves a wargame company
And Warhammer 40k is a war game nit an RPG!
Wrong. Completely wrong. Do you really believe that only RPGs can have a rich background and lore? Warhammer Fantasy had been a pure war game for three years until its RPG was published in 1986, Warhammer 40k was originally published in 1987, but the first RPG in this universe were published in 2008. The same applies to Battletech, which was published as a war game in 1984, its RPG called Mechwarrior came two years later.
You say they call themselves that, then cite a wikipedia article that anyone can edit?
Founded in
1975
in London UK
Games Workshop's history stretches back over 40 years to humble origins as a UK-based mail-order business for fantasy roleplaying games.
Direct from their website.
yep, before they had any products or shops they sold rpg's like AD&D etc mail order. Well, there were no rp shops back then. I was born in 1968, I brought the the first copy of wh40k when it was just a skirmish game called rogue trader of only like 5->10 models. I never got into fantasy battle for a time, I tried whfrp when it came out. gamesworkshop did their best to support the hobby, they brought white dwarf the magazin.. around about issue 75 gamesworkshop changed as a company,. they stopped selling everyone elses stuff and concentrated on their own.. white dwarf became a fanzine for gamesworkshop rather than a generic magazine it had once been.
I've been an autistic nerd for a long long time
We hated what gw did to our hobby at the time, everything was waagh and spiky bits and aimed at kids rather than deep rp like cthulhu
This is getting into another pointless debate about what is and isn't an RPG. As i've said in another thread, RPG is an entire genre, with sub sections like Tabletop, JRPG (final fantasy), ARPG (Diablo). One may not like it, but they are considered as RPG's.
oh I wasn't debating, I was just stating what they are and what came first
Actually yes. This is why I really liked to playwith Realistic Combat Overhaul mod.
I would like some sort of hidden RPG system tho, as far as perks and skills go.
I would hide all the trees and unlock stuff, as player does them. (You shoot pistols, you get faster and faster in reloading them, less and less recoil and faster recovery. You run you get faster with more stamina, You sneak you get more and more quiet and harder and harder to spot)
As far as loot goes. Id do it as it is in stalker COP. You can loot weaps and gear. But to fix and improve your guns you need to visit mechanics, Just as you need to visit blacksmiths in Witcher 3 actually.
And if player could craft/fix etc. I would keep that function only for apartement gunstorage/workshop (like in fallout 4) and maybe vehicles. It doesnt make sense to just grab your pocket crumbs and throw together hightech railgun xD
But most of this I can achieve by right combo of mods.
I would like some sort of hidden RPG system tho, as far as perks and skills go.
I would hide all the trees and unlock stuff, as player does them. (You shoot pistols, you get faster and faster in reloading them, less and less recoil and faster recovery. You run you get faster with more stamina, You sneak you get more and more quiet and harder and harder to spot)
As far as loot goes. Id do it as it is in stalker COP. You can loot weaps and gear. But to fix and improve your guns you need to visit mechanics, Just as you need to visit blacksmiths in Witcher 3 actually.
And if player could craft/fix etc. I would keep that function only for apartement gunstorage/workshop (like in fallout 4) and maybe vehicles. It doesnt make sense to just grab your pocket crumbs and throw together hightech railgun xD
But most of this I can achieve by right combo of mods.
That's pretty contradictive, isn't it? You say it would be better without the RPG stuff, then say you want three or four different RPG styles mixed together?
I agree, Warhammer seem to be a bad example for an RPG game. From my memories, those who played WarHammer/WH40K IRL (with their "homemade" figurines) played a "strategic war game" more than an RPG
But this still means that my statement that a game based on a TRPG must always be an RPG is true.
Err..that's what I am saying.I would say no.
CP would be a better game if it were as they originally announced it.
Quote: "RPG first", "All choices matters and will shape the story"
Unfortunately they forgot this along the way and delivered an action, adventure game with very poor RPG in it, where choices hardly matter at all.
The skill system ("haven't tried it with the overhaul changes") based on how it were originally, were pretty boring I think and personally I didn't bother to much with it. Which again to me comes back to the lack of RPG, there should have been lots of skills focusing on none combat stuff, sort of like we know it from Fallout 2 / 3. Skills that would let you interact with the world based on what type of character you wanted V to be.
I personally hope for TW4 that those working on the RPG elements when it comes to the character really give it a good boost and a severe testing, because so far this is one of the weak points about CDPRs RPG games in my opinion. The interaction with the game world could be done a lot more interesting, doesn't have to be complicated.
But to me in RPG character development is a very important part of the experience and I would rather it being to complicated with lots of stats than it being simplified.
We already know that they have very good quest designers and able to tell these so they are interesting. Now they just need to figure out how to get the rest of their games on the same level.
CP in my opinion, is being carried by the storytelling, the city and the characters. The rest of the game is below average or average at best.
But I think they could make a good adventure game if they wanted, but personally I prefer games where you can pick up loot, customize your character and also prefer games with a free to choose protagonist as V. Even over Geralt, despite him being very cool.
And I don't think V as such is a weaker character than Geralt, because in TW the whole story is more or less about him, whereas in CP it is basically about everyone other than V and still as a character you feel like its yours, especially supported by the other characters like Jackie etc. So had the story been about V, I think it would have made for a very good protagonist to be honest.
But overall I think the biggest issue is the lack of RPG elements, whether that is the character skills and interaction with the world or just in general interaction in the world. And obviously that the world changes based on what you choose and you can see the effect, so way to much action and adventure and to little RPG
Cyberpunk/Witcher's rpg systems, as they are currently, work very poorly while negatively impacting other aspects of the game.
Majority of "progression" really comes down to: Increase player damage through levelled loot ( plus some minor/additional bonuses from perks and cyberware/mutagens) vs. enemy health.
Then they make a mistake of calculating damage based on relative difference between player. vs. enemy level.
But because CDPR is so poor at balancing, player outlevels enemies eventually, and difficulty skydives.
Then they "fix this" by adding even more level scaling to enemies to compensate: which renders the entire system completely meaningless.
What's the point of even having dps scaling on weapons if you level scale enemies proportionally to compensate?
You might as well not have any of it and simply have more immersive open world with no levels and restrictions that the player is completely free to explore.
Here is a very simple test of how "good" CDPR is with rpg systems: take lvl 1 starting pistol with lvl 1 character and ( by using cheats) maxed every perk/stat/cyberware for that playstyle against lvl 50 enemies.
Now do the same with "legendary" random pistol, lvl 50 character but with absolutely zero perks/stats/cyberware against same enemies.
Which character will be far more effective?
It's even more disappointing because one of defining characteristics of Cyberpunk 2020 was it had no player levels. Mechanically, Cyberpunk 2077 could not be further away from the game it was "based on".
There is a reason why there are so few discussions on character builds on reddit or CDPR's forums: there is simply very little to talk about. It's all about weapon damage/Player level versus Enemy damage/Level.
Compare it to rpgs like PoEII or Pathfinder where you can find hundreds of threads.
Even action games like God of War, AC Odyssey or Arkham series have deeper and more interesting progression systems.
What makes rpg systems compelling is when player can create different synergies between various mechanics that lead to large variety of unique playstyles, interaction with npcs and the world and it's responsiveness, further customization your build through other systems ( like crafting), etc.
If RPG equals Dps increase, then I can just install Cheat engine, use it to boost player damage, and achieve largely the same result.
Well no - I am talking about yes remove RPG systems - the RNG shit, leveling, picking up atributes and other typical nonsense. however I am not fully against "progression" only I'd hide it, if there was some left. Like most things in life, even this is not black and white.
Especially when DeusEx got mentioned. And DE is not exactly RPG, but there is progression and basically skill tree with perks. See what I mean? Even DOOM2016 has progession of some sort. and it is not an RPG.
So this is how I meant it. CP is lil too much W3. I think CP was an opportunity to do something bit different. something more modern in gameplay sense. More organic and more intuitive as I described.
That's actually a quote from the guy who developed the Realistic Combat Overhaul mod. I had similar experiences though. For example, I still remember how I had no problem with story mission where you deal with enemies of the same gang, but a gig in the neighborhood with the same type of enemies that I did afterwards was very hard. These enemies probably had a much higher level, sure, but it still broke my immersion. And that's the second sin in my book: Levelled items and enemies are not just problematic for balance reasons, they're also bad for immersion. In a game that goes for a relatively "realistic" feel, where your player character is a normal human and most of your enemies are also normal humans, not some super soldiers or aliens or fantastic beasts, a gun of a certain type should always do the same damage, a headshot from a high-caliber rifle should always kill a regular enemy, and an enemy of a certain type should always (feel as if) he takes the same number of bullets to down.
In the end I switchted to to playing with mods though that eliminated levelled enemies, items, and player character hitpoints, and avoided the weird perks, and had a more enjoyable experience as result.
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To be fair, many open-world RPGs have struggled with this problem. It's not like CDPR are doing much worse here than many other developers. That being said, what I don't understand is why they went for levelled items, player health and enemies. You can already have a lot of character progression through attribute and skill increases (...if you really need to have them...), cyberware, and better weapons and gear, you don't need to make the life of the poor folks who're responsible for balancing even harder. And undo some of the work of the people who created the immersive world and believable characters in the process too.
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Maybe because their previous and greatest success was based on this system (exactly), a game named The Witcher 3 - Wild Hunt (bandits in White Orchad are level 1-5 and if you go directly at the north of Novigrad, the same "type" of bandits will be level 30-35...)
But I suppose those who have a problem with this system on Cyberpunk should feel the same on TW3
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Haven't tested what you wrote and won't either. Because when I started playing CP I made my character the way I wanted, so I liked using pistols. And the intention were to play a "diplomatic" playthrough with combat being the last solution. Obviously I dropped this fairly quickly when i figured out that it was not possible, simply from looking at the skill trees and seeing that there were no skills that would allow it.
I eventually chose to go deep into crafting, which at the point were pretty broken to be honest, might still be, haven't played CP for a while. But anyway, I didn't find any of the skills interesting, not particularly aimed at CP, but just in general in 3d shooters, I don't really notice whether or not I do 5% extra damage or not, because I shoot until they die.
So unless it were a skill that gave me some ability or new options, I don't really care about skills in a game like CP. It didn't ruin my experience, but I will probably say that it were unimportant in my playthrough. It might have worked or been better had I chosen others types of weapons, but in general I used range weapons and "magic", really didn't like the melee.
I do agree in games like POE, Pathfinder etc. its much more interesting, but also because you can feel a difference and in POE, it is about killing a lot of monsters and in Pathfinder, things can fairly easy go wrong, so you need to get the most out of your characters as you can.
In games like CP, I prefer passive abilities and its not like I don't think what is in CP should be removed or anything. I just personally don't find them as exciting, compared to skills that give me certain options in the game world, like better at chatting with people, through convincing, threaten them etc. being good at lock picking, hacking and so forth. But where it is based on a % rather than just a fixed value, I really enjoy that about FO that you are never 100% certain where things will go which to me makes things funnier when its a bit random or based on what you have previously done etc.
I did have fun with the combat in CP until a certain point, where you just become a God. But the fire fights without the smart, tech and magic stuff, I think works well, at least I enjoyed that very much.
I think Witcher III was a success despite it's rpg mechanics and leveling system, in the same way as how CDPR's upper management handled the project. My impression is even the most loyal fans simply tolerated it and enjoyed the game for it's story, characters, quests. CDPR would imo be bankrupt if other teams did as "good" of job as it's rpg designers.Maybe because their previous and greatest success was based on this system (exactly), a game named The Witcher 3 - Wild Hunt (bandits in White Orchad are level 1-5 and if you go directly at the north of Novigrad, the same "type" of bandits will be level 30-35...)
But I suppose those who have a problem with this system on Cyberpunk should feel the same on TW3
And all the way until Cyberpunk's launch fiasco, the same people defended how they run their studio: "it's-not-for-everyone-but-it's-just-our-way-of-doing-things". Now they're singing a very different song.
You'd have to be insane to try and copy everything from previous game simply because you made a lot of money from it.