Appreciation for 'crafted' worlds

[Agent_Blue]

Listen, it's a simple matter of fact that a great many things in Skyrim were procedurally generated, quests included. Anyway (and for what it’s worth in this company) I'll continue to make the point that any and all complaints about the 'cubed chicken breastness' of locations in that game are straight up bizarre. Why? Because (and this for the second time) one need only type 'skyrim environments' into google image search to swiftly dismiss the lunacy of any such claim.

I'm sorry. It's just not true that environments were procedurally generated. The only thing close to that is the loathed Radiant Story system, which does generate minor fetch quests to dungeons where the player has not yet been to.

I found Skyrim's exteriors to be quite varied and beautiful, albeit on the stale side of thins. All in all, art direction is wonderful. But please do yourself a favour and do not come in here and deem lunatic any claims of Skyrim repetiveness.

I gave an example. A dungeon. Skyrim dungeons are repetitive.

Bethesda uses a modular system.
it was bound to be repetitive.
Google "Skyrim Dwemer Ruins".

 

[Fandango9641]

Do me a lemon Agent Blue, Todd Howard made the point many (many, many) times in the lead up to launch that Skyrim would use far fewer procedurally generated environments than its predecessor Oblivion. Which is to say some right?

Moreover, attempting to bash the strongest suit of a game heralded by most as the yardstick by which all other games be judged in that particular area is the gaming equivalent of claiming the earth to be flat.

It's just really, really silly.

EDIT: I just googled "Skyrim Dwemer Ruins" and encourage any who might be interested to do the same.

 

[Agent_Blue]

Do me a lemon Agent Blue, Todd Howard made the point many (many, many) times in the lead up to launch that Skyrim would use far fewer procedurally generated environments than its predecessor Oblivion. Which is to say some right?

Moreover, attempting to bash the strongest suit of a game heralded by most as the yardstick by which all other games be judged in that area is the gaming equivalent of claiming the earth to be flat.

It's just really, really silly.

I'll do you a watermelon instead.

Provide a source for that quote. More importantly, if - allegedly - environments are procedurally generated and look great and dungeons handcrafted but look repetitive, what would that be saying?

You seem to not know the basic difference between a fact and an opinion.

It's a matter of fact they use a modular system; components are rehashed through dungeons. Saying they end up looking repetitive, now, that's a a matter of opinion.
In the countless reviews I've read about skyrim, including the 10/10s, I have yet to read the opinion that its dungeons are unique. Now, there's a first time for everything, I suppose.

Anyway, from what I've seen and watched, the Witcher has never suffered from that problem and here's hoping it won't contract the disease in the next game.

I bid you good day Sir.

 

[Vasea]

Exploring the map and all its caves in Gothic 3 was the best part of that game hand down. I hope TW3 brings that back.

 

[AhmadMetallic]

It's as clear as day that the dungeons and forts of Skyrim severely lack variety in interior design.
By the 20th dungeon I had simply memorized how to go through a dungeon and reach the Word wall in the shortest time: Avoid the identical trap pads located in the same kind of spots where there are clearly spikes at the a door entrance or a big spike board around corners, shoot the dark-looking Draugrs from afar before they awaken and 1-hit-kill them, grab the soul gem out of the flame thrower immediately, Whirlwind through any rigged hallways, only loot the shelves because all the jars and desks and urns, are useless, then when I reach a big hall I cast my strongest anti-Draugr scroll and after a quick fight with the help of my fire atronach, I grab the Word and find the typical exit that drops me at the starting point of the dungeon.
But then you have all the other places that aren't Draugr dungeons. Some of the Dwemer dungeons lead to really breathtaking locations. A lot of caves have incredible interior forests or frost walls.

I still consider Skyrim a fantastic game even in the world aspect. If you take out all the dungeons, which admittedly there is an abundance of, you STILL get a fantastic RPG with a truly spine chilling atmosphere and amazing scenery. As much as I love The Witcher, neither of the two games managed to drown me in their scenery, snow, sun, and music that Skyrim blends together so seamlessly.
A lot of nooks and crannies around the mountains and inside the forests, great landscape, some pretty impressive vertical design (Arcane College? The Fornswarn buildings that lead you up to the top of the mountain after a big fight through their levels?)...

People just seem to forget that Bethesda have too much to design in the stupendous worlds they create. You got a ton of skill trees with a bunch of perks for each one, much more than just making Aard bigger in radius or taking less damage from behind. A ton of spells, a lot of quests which are in fact great and include books and journals, etc..
And they've created a ton of those worlds over the last 15 years, over more than 5 games, without the help of a series of novels which had all the infrastructure mapped out for them.

 

[AhmadMetallic]

But on-to the point, if CDPR actually pull a miracle by creating 50 dungeons with unique interior designs and puzzle mechanisms for each one, and if they manage to create a massive world that will STILL consist of memorable and sentimental locations the way Witcher 1 carved Murky Waters and Vizima and the swamps in my brain, they'll reign supreme as the greatest open world developer ever.

And great post OP />

 

[monotoy]

People just seem to forget that Bethesda have too much to design in the stupendous worlds they create. You got a ton of skill trees with a bunch of perks for each one, much more than just making Aard bigger in radius or taking less damage from behind. A ton of spells, a lot of quests which are in fact great and include books and journals, etc..
And they've created a ton of those worlds over the last 15 years, over more than 5 games, without the help of a series of novels which had all the infrastructure mapped out for them.

but that's the problem in my opinion.
granted, the worlds are huge, lots of quests, you can now even build houses (cough) and stuff ... so much to do ... and I've never felt so disconnected in any game than in Bethesda's. So much to do ... but why? Why bother? As much as it pains me I felt the same with F3 and even F:NV ... I mean, the moment when I left the vault the first time in f3 was really memorable: what a goddamn view! and then I got more and more and more disconnected. When I reach the point where I go for the "disclose all locations on the map for fast travel" perk, just out of a completionists urge, something is wrong at the core.

 

[username_2064020]

I would say that Fallout 2 is only semi-open world (closed locations scattered on the world map)

Well, it's an open world, you can factually travel in any direction at any time. Areas on its world exist regardless of plot progression, and so on.
Just because it isn't seamless, it doesn't make it not open.

and I'm not sure if Dark Souls should be called 'open world game'.

This, on the other hand, it isn't exactly big, but it's definitely seamless.

Anyway, arguing on these details is a bit beyond the point I was trying to make.

 

[AhmadMetallic]

but that's the problem in my opinion.
granted, the worlds are huge, lots of quests, you can now even build houses (cough) and stuff ... so much to do ... and I've never felt so disconnected in any game than in Bethesda's. So much to do ... but why? Why bother? As much as it pains me I felt the same with F3 and even F:NV ... I mean, the moment when I left the vault the first time in f3 was really memorable: what a goddamn view! and then I got more and more and more disconnected. When I reach the point where I go for the "disclose all locations on the map for fast travel" perk, just out of a completionists urge, something is wrong at the core.

Hey if you're saying that you require purpose and a story deeply interwoven with your tasks and actions in order to be motivated to play, I understand. But to explain the appeal of Bethesda games to you: They are the best kind of games for real-time, minute to minute role playing.

When you're thrown into a world, you are literally there standing on two feet while an entire world is vibrating around you. No chapters, no skipping time, no story twists, just you, your sword/gun, and 300 hours ahead of you made of pure real-time role playing where you are COMPLETELY in control and you can do all kinds of shit.
I have about 220 hours in Skyrim right now, and I'm still playing. The beauty of this game is that it somehow manages to be intriguing, story wise, just by having factions and history. I don't feel the need to care for Triss or expose the Salamanders in Bethesda games, I just get the rush of mixing 10 different quest lines for 10 different factions who have their own histories, books, secrets and intrigue.

And then I want to craft Ebony arrows, and I find myself spending an entire hour traveling to mines on horseback, killing the NEW monsters that a mod I recently installed added, going from mine to mine making ebony. And then I find myself in my Dovahkiin hideout organizing my weapons and books for another hour.

It's real life but pigeons are dragons and your work place is an ancient cave, etc...

 

[Agent_Blue]

It's as clear as day that the dungeons and forts of Skyrim severely lack variety in interior design.
By the 20th dungeon I had simply memorized how to go through a dungeon and reach the Word wall in the shortest time: Avoid the identical trap pads located in the same kind of spots where there are clearly spikes at the a door entrance or a big spike board around corners, shoot the dark-looking Draugrs from afar before they awaken and 1-hit-kill them, grab the soul gem out of the flame thrower immediately, Whirlwind through any rigged hallways, only loot the shelves because all the jars and desks and urns, are useless, then when I reach a big hall I cast my strongest anti-Draugr scroll and after a quick fight with the help of my fire atronach, I grab the Word and find the typical exit that drops me at the starting point of the dungeon.
But then you have all the other places that aren't Draugr dungeons. Some of the Dwemer dungeons lead to really breathtaking locations. A lot of caves have incredible interior forests or frost walls.

I still consider Skyrim a fantastic game even in the world aspect. If you take out all the dungeons, which admittedly there is an abundance of, you STILL get a fantastic RPG with a truly spine chilling atmosphere and amazing scenery. As much as I love The Witcher, neither of the two games managed to drown me in their scenery, snow, sun, and music that Skyrim blends together so seamlessly.
A lot of nooks and crannies around the mountains and inside the forests, great landscape, some pretty impressive vertical design (Arcane College? The Fornswarn buildings that lead you up to the top of the mountain after a big fight through their levels?)...

People just seem to forget that Bethesda have too much to design in the stupendous worlds they create. You got a ton of skill trees with a bunch of perks for each one, much more than just making Aard bigger in radius or taking less damage from behind. A ton of spells, a lot of quests which are in fact great and include books and journals, etc..
And they've created a ton of those worlds over the last 15 years, over more than 5 games, without the help of a series of novels which had all the infrastructure mapped out for them.

All in all, SKyrim is a good game.

Scenery is excellent, albeit on the stale side of things and we mustn't forget we're talking about a game, not an interactive tourist postcard. Having said that, the vanilla games does offer some wonderful vistas, which grown to be spectacular with the right mods installed.

Dungeon design is seriously lacklustre in my opinion. The basic overarching flaw is, like you said, design. They're fairly linear, coiling tunnels that end up in a Word wall and a safe way out. But the most glaring flaw is Beth has taken every great design idea it's had and cloned it around across so many sibling dungeons that all effect is lost. Take Black Reach. Sumptuous, alien, hypnotic; that is if you've never been to any other Dwemer ruin where the same architecture has been rehashed in a slightly different manner. Same with the claw mechanism; great idea, great aesthetics, to bad there's a dozen of them.

This is where we hit the crux of the matter.

Did Bethesda had to do it like this? The decision to populate the world each every few steps with a POI is a design choice. No one was holding a gun to Bethesda at point blank range and demanding 300 dungeons or else. It was their call. It's always their call.

Now, It was always going to be tricky for Beth to dig themselves out of the hole they dig. Please don't turn this the other way around.

All my respect, incentive and suggestions go out to CDProjekt in the hopes they shan't be making the same mistake.

 

[SystemShock7]

This is pure speculation, but I would posit that Skyrim has a great many more environmental assets than TW2 (not that it matters a jot). Anyone have the numbers? In any case, I really find it difficult to take seriously the views of anyone who would claim that the environments in Skyrim are 'cookie cutter'. Dragon Age 2? No doubt. Skyrim? Not so much.

What I posted is not "someone's view": obviously you have not fired up Skyrim's construction set. Although, I'd think anyone would notice all of the dungeons use the same mesh sets, or that all of the small cities use the exact same houses, etc etc etc.

 

[AhmadMetallic]

Scenery is excellent, albeit on the stale side of things and we mustn't forget we're talking about a game, not an interactive tourist postcard.

Not only do I not understand what you mean by stale, I also can't think of any other game that provided such a wide extensive variety of scenery on one stretch of land and was... "less stale" than Skyrim.
Stale how?

This is where we hit the crux of the matter.

Did Bethesda had to do it like this? The decision to populate the world each every few steps with a POI is a design choice. No one was holding a gun to Bethesda at point blank range and demanding 300 dungeons or else. It was their call. It's always their call.

Who's forcing you to enter all of the 300 dungeons? They put them there because there are knobs out there with a short attention span who would quit the game if they didn't find "skeletons to kill." The kinds of people who played Skyrim without knowing what a quest is.
No one forced you to enter all those dungeons, only a handful of them, the best-designed handful, were necessary for the real meaty quests, and you could've enjoyed that handful alone.
They're not even imposing on the exterior, it's not like if you stand on a mountain and look down you'd see dungeons placed one after the other. Most of them are carefully hidden inside mountains or under the ground, and most of their enterances were doors in the rock or just crevices that blended with the scenery just fine.

After getting tired of dungeons around the 100th hour I started avoiding them and voila, 100 more hours of really sinking my teeth into everything else.

Point is, you sound like you're saying that the dungeons are an essential asset of the Skyrim experience, as if without them the game wouldnt have enough places for you to go, and I'm saying that's not true. Having a ton of them doesn't make them primary in any way.

 

[monotoy]

They are the best kind of games for real-time, minute to minute role playing.

maybe I'm just not made for them ... the *role playing* aspect is exactly what I'm missing. (And the fact that it is too easy.)

I would love them to build the world Darkfall dev's couldn't. And then go all out in this gorgeous, dangerous, deadly, ffa sandbox MMORPG.

but on their own, and on my own in their world, they didn't fill it with *purpose* I think. And that's my main beef with the game.

No offense, I know there are tons of people who really like the game and all the better for them! But for me, it just doesn't "click", and I tried hard. Lots of hours put into that game, finished it, trying to get to like it but ... couldn't

 

[Fandango9641]

What I posted is not "someone's view": obviously you have not fired up Skyrim's construction set. Although, I'd think anyone would notice all of the dungeons use the same mesh sets, or that all of the small cities use the exact same houses, etc etc etc.

I don’t know what Skyrim's construction set is SystemShock, much less what it does, but I do know that making absolute statements one can easily reject out of hand after playing the game for 10 minutes gets us nowhere.

Again, those who insist on using Skyrim as the poster child for bland, repetitive environments really need to choose their wickets a little more carefully. I mean, REALLY!

 

[Agent_Blue]

Not only do I not understand what you mean by stale, I also can't think of any other game that provided such a wide extensive variety of scenery on one stretch of land and was... "less stale" than Skyrim.
Stale how?



Who's forcing you to enter all of the 300 dungeons? They put them there because there are knobs out there with a short attention span who would quit the game if they didn't find "skeletons to kill." The kinds of people who played Skyrim without knowing what a quest is.
No one forced you to enter all those dungeons, only a handful of them, the best-designed handful, were necessary for the real meaty quests, and you could've enjoyed that handful alone.
They're not even imposing on the exterior, it's not like if you stand on a mountain and look down you'd see dungeons placed one after the other. Most of them are carefully hidden inside mountains or under the ground, and most of their enterances were doors in the rock or just crevices that blended with the scenery just fine.

After getting tired of dungeons around the 100th hour I started avoiding them and voila, 100 more hours of really sinking my teeth into everything else.

Point is, you sound like you're saying that the dungeons are an essential asset of the Skyrim experience, as if without them the game wouldnt have enough places for you to go, and I'm saying that's not true. Having a ton of them doesn't make them primary in any way.

Stale as in inorganic, as opposed to lively. And scenery is an apt term, since you cannot interact with it in any gameplay-meaningful way. You cannot climb, for example, this in a mountain ridden game.

You just got to be freakin' kidding me. No one has to go through 100 dungeons to finally get it and start noticing the blatant similarities. If one does, I'm sorry, one just wasn't paying attention. The fact becomes obvious after the first 3 Dwemer ruins. Entire 5 storey high towers got photocopied throughout an offspring of underground and exterior ruins. Let's not even discuss Dragur architecture. The whole claw mechanism cloning is just plain perverse and it is a direct corollary of their decision, theirs alone, to have a new dungeon every few meters. Bear in mind you absolutely must complete those quests should you want to get hold of the shouts, a cardinal feature of the game.

I guess there's just no way we're ever going to agree on this if you're suggesting Skyrim minus its trillion dungeons is a fascinating place for me to roleplay, or even simply play, for that matter. if I roleplay as a scarecrow, it just might be.

TES V is a good game. Importantly, it is fun and no one is denying its many merits. But It's also shallow like only socialites can be.

Bottom line, CDProjekt, avoid the same erroneous path at all costs.

 

[Agent_Blue]

(double post, sorry)

 

[Agent_Blue]

I don’t know what Skyrim's construction set is SystemShock, much less what it does, but I do know that making absolute statements one can easily reject out of hand by playing the game for a few minutes gets us nowhere.

Again, those who insist on using Skyrim as their poster child for bland, repetitive environments really need to choose their wickets a little more carefully.

Then again no one really is.

*Dungeons* are very much so repetitive, both in overall design and use of the same components. The very fact - not opinion - that a construction set is used, a pool of common building blocks that are then repeated in different combinations throughout different dungeons, is in itself the root source of the repetition and that is indeed quite obvious.

Now, notice that I'm talking about dungeons, not exteriors, which you're the first to
bring up. In that sense, environments are not repetitive. I personally find them stale, for the most part.

 

[monotoy]

Bottom line, CDProjekt, avoid the same erroneous path at all costs.

yes, please.

 

[Fandango9641]

*Dungeons* are very much so repetitive, both in overall design and use of the same components. The very fact - not opinion - that a construction set is used, a pool of common building blocks that are then repeated in different combinations throughout different dungeons, is in itself the root source of the repetition and that is indeed quite obvious.

Right and having a four-letter DNA alphabet means no genetic diversity too eh?

 

[Agent_Blue]

Right and having a four-letter DNA alphabet means no genetic diversity too eh?

I'm sorry. That's just an absurd analogy.