Appreciation for 'crafted' worlds

[Fandango9641]

I'm sorry. That's just an absurd analogy.

It's ok, don't be sorry.

 

[SystemShock7]

I don’t know what Skyrim's construction set is SystemShock, much less what it does, but I do know that making absolute statements one can easily reject out of hand by playing the game for 10 minutes gets us nowhere.

Again, those who insist on using Skyrim as the poster child for bland, repetitive environments really need to choose their wickets a little more carefully.

You really don't know what the construction kit is?
Well, let me explain to you what it is (albeit at a very high level). It is the application Bethesda used to make the game. It is also the application they release to modders so they can make mods for the game. It's name has changed from Morrowind/Oblivion (construction kit) to Fallout(G.E.C.K.) to Skyrim (creation kit), but they are all basically the same thing. When you fire up the construction set, you can see every single asset that's included in the .bsa files, how many times each asset was used, etc etc etc. You get a folder view of each type of asset. For dungeons, IIRC, there is a number of tile sets that are used, one set for each type of dungeon. So, all the forts you see in Skyrim use the exact same tile set, all the nord dungeons use the exact same tile set, etc. So, if there are 40 forts in Skyrim, they all were put together using the exact same tile set(s). That is why no matter what side of the map you are on, they all look the same. They may not have the exact same layout (although there are a number that do) but they use the exact tile sets, ie, cookie cutter. That's why you'd see the use count for some tiles in the 100's-1000's. This becomes even clearer when you view the entire cell in the construction set's render window.

In conclusion, since I make mods for games, I still make mods for Oblivion/Fallout/NV (which happens to be more entertaining to me that actually playing the game, maybe one day I'll finish my Kingdom of Heaven mod, I digress), and I even did 2 mods for Skyrim (although after a few hours of playing the game I wiped that crap off my hard drive), I can tell you, FOR A FACT, Skyrim dungeons are indeed cookie cutter.

And I'd iterate, I really find it kind of odd people who had played the game have not noticed that all the dungeons look the same.

 

[Agent_Blue]

You really don't know what the construction kit is?
Well, let me explain to you what it is (albeit at a very high level). It is the application Bethesda used to make the game. It is also the application they release to modders so they can make mods for the game. It's name has changed from Morrowind/Oblivion (construction kit) to Fallout(G.E.C.K.) to Skyrim (creation kit), but they are all basically the same thing. When you fire up the construction set, you can see every single asset that's included in the .bsa files, how many times each asset was used, etc etc etc. You get a folder view of each type of asset. For dungeons, IIRC, there is a number of tile sets that are used, one set for each type of dungeon. So, all the forts you see in Skyrim use the exact same tile set, all the nord dungeons use the exact same tile set, etc. So, if there are 40 forts in Skyrim, they all were put together using the exact same tile set(s). That is why no matter what side of the map you are on, they all look the same. They may not have the exact same layout (although there are a number that do) but they use the exact tile sets, ie, cookie cutter. That's why you'd see the use count for some tiles in the 100's-1000's. This becomes even clearer when you view the entire cell.

In conclusion, since I make mods for games, I still make mods for Oblivion/Fallout/NV (which happens to be more entertaining to me that actually playing the game, maybe one day I'll finish my Kingdom of Heaven mod, I digress), and I even did 2 mods for Skyrim (although after a few hours of playing the game I wiped that crap off my hard drive), I can tell you, FOR A FACT, Skyrim dungeons are indeed cookie cutter.

And I'd iterate, I really find it kind of odd people who had played the game have not noticed that all the dungeons look the same.

You've said it more eloquently and with more property than I ever could've .

 

[Fandango9641]

You really don't know what the construction kit is?
Well, let me explain to you what it is (albeit at a very high level). It is the application Bethesda used to make the game. It is also the application they release to modders so they can make mods for the game. It's name has changed from Morrowind/Oblivion (construction kit) to Fallout(G.E.C.K.) to Skyrim (creation kit), but they are all basically the same thing. When you fire up the construction set, you can see every single asset that's included in the .bsa files, how many times each asset was used, etc etc etc. You get a folder view of each type of asset. For dungeons, IIRC, there is a number of tile sets that are used, one set for each type of dungeon. So, all the forts you see in Skyrim use the exact same tile set, all the nord dungeons use the exact same tile set, etc. So, if there are 40 forts in Skyrim, they all were put together using the exact same tile set(s). That is why no matter what side of the map you are on, they all look the same. They may not have the exact same layout (although there are a number that do) but they use the exact tile sets, ie, cookie cutter. That's why you'd see the use count for some tiles in the 100's-1000's. This becomes even clearer when you view the entire cell in the construction set's render window.

In conclusion, since I make mods for games, I still make mods for Oblivion/Fallout/NV (which happens to be more entertaining to me that actually playing the game, maybe one day I'll finish my Kingdom of Heaven mod, I digress), and I even did 2 mods for Skyrim (although after a few hours of playing the game I wiped that crap off my hard drive), I can tell you, FOR A FACT, Skyrim dungeons are indeed cookie cutter.

And I'd iterate, I really find it kind of odd people who had played the game have not noticed that all the dungeons look the same.

Ok SystemShock, I'd be happier to concede a little ground here if you could demonstrate to me that most other games do things better. Can you?

 

[username_2064020]

Oh, come on, guys. While I dislike a lot about Skyrim in terms of general design, subsystems, balance, mechanics and so on, frankly I find complaints about the limited cosmetic diversity a bit silly.
While surely something more could have been done, there is already an insane amount of diversified stuff in Skyrim from a visual standpoint; more than enough to compete with most games around, in fact.

 

[Fandango9641]

Oh, come on, guys. While I dislike a lot about Skyrim in terms of general design, subsystems, balance, mechanics and so on, frankly I find complaints about the limited cosmetic diversity a bit silly.
While surely something more could have been done, there is already an insane amount of diversified stuff in Skyrim from a visual standpoint; more than enough to compete with most games around, in fact.

Bingo.

 

[Agent_Blue]

Oh, come on, guys. While I dislike a lot about Skyrim in terms of general design, subsystems, balance, mechanics and so on, frankly I find complaints about the limited cosmetic diversity a bit silly.
While surely something more could have been done, there is already an insane amount of diversified stuff in Skyrim from a visual standpoint; more than enough to compete with most games around, in fact.

I guess that's your opinion then.

Such repetition transcends visuals, it also applies to dungeon layout, just to give a quick example. Point, mine at least, was never that Beth could have done more to circumvent it, though that could be argued on account of the triple 11 deadline they imposed upon themselves. I, for one, would never dream of calling Bethesda lazy. Suffice to look at Todd Howard's bleak face in the Making of SKyrim video to picture all the very long hours he must've put in.

What I'm arguing is that such tremendous collective effort was at least partially put to waste over a bad design call, that is, to overcrowd the world with POIs. It didn't have to be that way.

That's what I'm saying.

I'm also making a plea to CDProjekt to not go down that lane.

 

[username_2064020]

Such repletion transcends visuals, it also applies to dungeon layout, just to give a quick example.

Yeah, I have a LOT to complain about their dungeon design and dungeon layout.
Too bad that has hardly *anything* to do with visual diversity.

And sure, a lot of dungeons repeat themselves even visually, but to be honest it would be crazy to expect otherwise given their sheer number.

That said, my point is exactly: I would be absolutely fine with the same degree of cosmetic diversity if dungeons were actually good. I know how to keep my expectations about what developers can do realistically in check.

I don't like Skyrim's dungeons simply because they are DULL and BORING to explore, to navigate, to play; I don't cry for their reuse of visual assets, because I'm not insane.

 

[SystemShock7]

Ok SystemShock, I'd be happier to concede a little ground here if you could demonstrate to me that most other games do things better. Can you?

Uh?
What do other games have to do with what we are discussing?
So far, in regard to my statement that Skyrim is cookie cutter, your statements have been:

This is pure speculation... I really find it difficult to take seriously the views of anyone who would claim that the environments in Skyrim are 'cookie cutter'

I do know that making absolute statements one can easily reject out of hand by playing the game for 10 minutes gets us nowhere.

You have no ground to concede.

 

[Fandango9641]

Uh?
What do other games have to do with what we are discussing?
So far, in regard to my statement that Skyrim is cookie cutter, your statements have been:

This is pure speculation... I really find it difficult to take seriously the views of anyone who would claim that the environments in Skyrim are 'cookie cutter'

I do know that making absolute statements one can easily reject out of hand by playing the game for 10 minutes gets us nowhere.

You have no ground to concede.

As I thought.

 

[SystemShock7]

As I thought.

You thought what?
Now you are just trying to steer the topic somewhere else to save face (too late, though), instead of doing the mature thing and admit you were wrong. You may not want to be wrong, you may be what is usually referred to as a "fanboi" of Skyrim, but the fact is, you were wrong, Skyrim is cookie cutter. End of story.

 

[Fandango9641]

You thought what?
Now you are just trying to steer the topic somewhere else to save face (too late, though), instead of doing the mature thing and admit you were wrong. You may not want to be wrong, you may be what is usually referred to as a "fanboi" of Skyrim, but the fact is, you were wrong, Skyrim is cookie cutter. End of story.

Yep, you're on your arse.

 

[Agent_Blue]

Yeah, I have a LOT to complain about their dungeon design and dungeon layout.
Too bad that has hardly *anything* to do with visual diversity.

And sure, a lot of dungeons repeat themselves even visually, but to be honest it would be crazy to expect otherwise given their sheer number.

That said, my point is exactly: I would be absolutely fine with the same degree of cosmetic diversity if dungeons were actually good. I know how to keep my expectations about what developers can do realistically in check.

I don't like Skyrim's dungeons simply because they are DULL and BORING to navigate, to play; I don't cry for their reuse visual assets, because I'm not insane.

Man, you really shot yourself in the foot there.

I was demonstrating that such repetition isn't merely visual as you've implied. it's a deeper phenomenon that has the same root cause. On a side note, see, I just don't understand the recurrent ease with which you use terms like "insane", "obsession" and what not. It just doesn't move the discussion forward and it certainly fails to strengthen your case.

Feel free to PM me.

 

[SystemShock7]

The exteriors in Skyrim were pretty bad imo. Heightmaps everywhere and a small amount of recognizable areas. The first Witcher 3 screens don't give me much hope to be honest. I don't know if they are but they certainly look like they were crafted with heightmaps too. The problem is not the open wordl (see Gothic) it's the size of the world (see Oblivion/Skyrim/Gothic 3) that's the problem. It just takes much much longer to make every area unique and detailed, that's why so many big games have so boring exteriors.

Yep, you're on your arse.

That's funny. Is that the usual reaction you have when proven wrong?
I am going to stop right here. It is obvious you lack the maturity to accept when you are proven wrong, so there is no need to continue. And really it doesn't matter what you say further, people can read the posts and see how blindly you pushed an argument without having factual knowledge on the subject.


MOD: let's avoid personal attack and stick on the matter please

 

[Fandango9641]

That's funny. Is that the usual reaction you have when proven wrong?
I am going to stop right here. It is obvious you lack the maturity to accept when you are proven wrong, so there is no need to continue. And really it doesn't matter what you say further, people can read the posts and see how blindly you pushed an argument without having factual knowledge on the subject.

Well good for you SS, way to be the better man. In the event you ever want to revisit this thread and contribute something a little more substantial at a later date, please be so kind as to validate your claim that Skyrim is cookie cutter. Well, beyond simply saying that it is a videogame with environmental assets! Thanks in advance.

 

[username_2064020]

Man, you really shot yourself in the foot there.

No, I didn't.

I was demonstrating that such repetition isn't merely visual as you've implied.

And, on the other hand, I'm not denying it; I'm stating that these are two very distinct, separate issues.
But you are missing the point and mixing them.

Let me try to re-state my point for the last time (I hope):
I'm not saying that I'm fine with the dungeon layout in Skyrim. I actually hate it.
I'm saying that I would be fine with it if it was any good (which it isn't), regardless of an improved visual variety.

Or, to word it an even simpler way: visual variety in Skyrim is just fine. There is repetition, but to a reasonable extent.
What sucks about those dungeons is how they are designed, how they play.

On a side note, see, I just don't understand the recurrent ease with which you use terms like "insane", "obsession" and what not. It just doesn't move the discussion forward and it certainly fails to strengthen your case.

Yeah, I already noticed how you keep complaining about the common use of English words and how you seem to find offensive pretty much everything, no matter how neutral in its meaning.
Sorry, but maybe you should just come to terms with your own over-sensitivity.

 

[Agent_Blue]

No, I didn't.


And, on the other hand, I'm not denying it; I'm stating that these are two very distinct, separate issues.
But you are missing the point and mixing them.


Yeah, I already noticed how you keep complaining about the common use of English words and how you seem to find offensive pretty much everything, no matter how neutral in its meaning.
Sorry, but maybe you should just come to terms with your own over-sensitivity.

Two distinct levels of repetition, same root cause.

Oh, but quite the contrary. I couldn't care less about your nouns and adjectives of choice.
It's only fair I let you know they aren't building your case though. On internet forums, the use of such language is commonly a sign of self-doubt.

Have a wonderful day.

 

[secondchildren]

Ok guys, now please drop this Skyrim-good vs Skyrim bad and the cookie-cutter discussion. Or at least, put it a notch down if you can.

First warning given

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

Well good for you SS, way to be the better man. In the event you ever want to revisit this thread and contribute something a little more substantial, please be so kind as to validate your claim that Skyrim is cookie cutter. Well, beyond simply saying that it is a videogame with environmental assets! Thanks in advance.

Maybe it's been a while since you played Skyrim, but it does have a rather repetitive environment. Don't get me wrong- there are ruins, tombs, towns, forests, camps, farms, inns etc. But you seldom get the feeling that there's anything unique about each setting.

A Markarth inn is not any different than a Dawnstar one- same NPC behavior, same general aesthetics, same cultural environment. That's really boring. W2 only featured a handful of settings, but each one had unique, defining features and characteristics that make them stand out in your memory. I am so fond of Vergen as a city because it looks like it has a past, that it's an actual place where people live and will live- the mesmerizing dwarven fertility statues, and the conversations between NPCs are examples of how the city comes to life on two different levels.

So for W3, I hope we get the same kind of environment design.

Opps, just saw mod warning. I hope this is not off topic.

 

[username_2064020]

Two distinct levels of repetition, same root cause.

Let me be clear about making this distinction.

I care a LOT about stressing this point, because the main reason I'm debating these topics at all instead of keeping my opinion to myself is this small, remote hope someone on CD Projekt could read some of our arguments and take few notes from them.
Or to put it in simpler terms, I argue about good game design because I hope it will make TW3 better if developers are going to take notes about the relevant points we make.

Now, this premise to point the problem: if CDPR's developers were going to listen just to pointless complaints like "The story in Skyrim sucks, be better", or "the textures in Skyrim are repeated, more graphics please" they could be fooled by their fans' feedback into thinking that copying Skyrim and solving these problems would be fine enough.

It wouldn't. Solving these "problems" wouldn't "solve" nothing.
Skryim with the better story ever told and ten times as much textures would be a terrible game anyway, because it sucks for a lot more reasons than those two. It sucks because dungeons are just paths to follow slaying stuff; it sucks because the whole ruleset is broken, unbalanced and exploitable to ridiculous degrees; it sucks because level scaling and loot scaling take away any sense of progression and reward; it sucks because the world looks pretty but feels dull to interact with; it sucks because quests are dull and unimaginative.
And I could go on for a lot more, but I don't see the point.

What's really important is stressing that no, making dungeons and geographical areas graphically more diverse wouldn't make them good, it would make them prettier but every bit as dull as part of the gaming experience.