Appreciation for 'crafted' worlds

[loleebr]

Appreciation for 'crafted' worlds

I saw the article announcing the Witcher 3 and I have to say I am very excited.

I also noted that Witcher 3 will be a free roaming open world. I understand the appeal in having the freedom to do whatever you want in a world. I also wanted to state my appreciation for closed world maps of Witcher 1 & 2.

It has been at least a year since I've played Witcher 2, even longer since I've played the first game. However I still distinctly remember the level designs of several areas in both games. Rundown castle of Kaer Morhen, backwater village of Flotsam, the very ancient magic embued forest surrounding Flotsam. All these areas have distinct and unique personalities that make them memorable. And by making them memorable I remember my experiences playing the game. I remember running up and down grassy mountainous regions hunting harpies. Or returning to the village at night after a big fight, following the moon's reflection in the river. These are experience that made the game come alive for me. This is what immersed me into the game.

A problem with open world maps, is that it becomes more difficult to make these areas unique. If you fill the map with the same trees, they no longer become unique and lose character. I've played games such as Far Cry, GTA, and Fallout much more recently. Honestly I can't tell you much I remember from those games except that I was in a jungle, or a city or a wasteland. I vaguely remember the games as being fun and something of their plots but that's about it.

I supposed my point is; Please don't undervalue the importance of hand-crafted worlds.

Also thank you CDProjekt for the great experiences (and many more).

 

[Fandango9641]

Have you played Skyrim loleebr? If not, it might just sell you on the potential of open world environments. Brilliantly written first post by the way.

 

[xxnekrosisxx]

I fully realize what you mean about the forest outside Flotsam. What you said brought the same fear to me, I really hope they decide to craft all the environments by hand inside and out of every town and path that runs through the new regions. I have faith in the developer after looking at how much they improved from the Witcher to the Witcher 2. Come on CDPR! Don't let us down!

 

[username_2064020]

Crafted worlds and open worlds aren't mutually exclusive.
In fact I would argue that the only decent open worlds around are those handcrafted (i.e. Piranha Bytes games, Fallout 2, Ultima VII, Dark Souls).

Fandango, Skyrim is an awful example not because it isn't handcrafted (it is, at least for the most part) but because it lacks any basic understanding of good game design.
What do you need 200 dungeons for, when not a single one of them is engaging to explore, rewarding to loot, fun to play?

You could trash every single dungeon in Skyrim, replace them with just ten decent dungeons, forget the awful loot scaling, place by hand ten decent items as rewards, and you would have a FAR better game for a fraction of the budget and manpower.

 

[Geralt_of_bsas]

I saw the article announcing the Witcher 3 and I have to say I am very excited.

I also noted that Witcher 3 will be a free roaming open world. I understand the appeal in having the freedom to do whatever you want in a world. I also wanted to state my appreciation for closed world maps of Witcher 1 & 2.

It has been at least a year since I've played Witcher 2, even longer since I've played the first game. However I still distinctly remember the level designs of several areas in both games. Rundown castle of Kaer Morhen, backwater village of Flotsam, the very ancient magic embued forest surrounding Flotsam. All these areas have distinct and unique personalities that make them memorable. And by making them memorable I remember my experiences playing the game. I remember running up and down grassy mountainous regions hunting harpies. Or returning to the village at night after a big fight, following the moon's reflection in the river. These are experience that made the game come alive for me. This is what immersed me into the game.

A problem with open world maps, is that it becomes more difficult to make these areas unique. If you fill the map with the same trees, they no longer become unique and lose character. I've played games such as Far Cry, GTA, and Fallout much more recently. Honestly I can't tell you much I remember from those games except that I was in a jungle, or a city or a wasteland. I vaguely remember the games as being fun and something of their plots but that's about it.

I supposed my point is; Please don't undervalue the importance of hand-crafted worlds.

Also thank you CDProjekt for the great experiences (and many more).

You have a totally fair point regarding areas being more unique and such, but to be honest, i think you dont remember a particular area because you just simply didnt have to run through it as much as in the witcher, im talking about repetition.

Besides that, i agree, the smaller the places the more unique and detailed they are, but keep in mind TW1 and TW2's places are like that also because RED are crazy about detail and personality, and i think they wont sacrifice that, its just not in their nature, its not acceptable for them.

 

[Fandango9641]

Crafted worlds and open worlds aren't mutually exclusive.
In fact I would argue that the only decent open worlds around are those handcrafted (i.e. Piranha Bytes games, Fallout 2, Ultima VII, Dark Souls).

Fandango, Skyrim is an awful example not because it isn't handcrafted (it is, at least for the most part) but because it lacks any basic understanding of good game design.
What do you need 200 dungeons for, when not a single one of them is engaging to explore, rewarding to loot, fun to play?

You could trash every single dungeon in Skyrim, replace them with just ten decent dungeons, forget the awful loot scaling, place by hand ten decent items as rewards, and you would have a FAR better game for a fraction of the budget and manpower.

I chose Skyrim as my example precisely because it wasn’t handcrafted and, to my mind at least, does scale, diversity and aesthetics brilliantly well.

 

[username_2064020]

I chose Skyrim as my example precisely because it wasn’t handcrafted and, to my mind at least, does scale, diversity and aesthetics brilliantly well.

Yeah, I can agree, to some extent. But it also makes pretty much everything else awfully bad.

On a side note, what I think is really important in an open environment and feels too often ignored, is vertical building.
Don't consider your world just like a plain to fill, or your dungeons just like a bunch of corridors crossing each other.
Build a three-dimensional environment. Build places you can climb on, jump of, areas where you can find not-obvious shortcuts, suspended bridges (or similar) you can use to avoid strong enemies (or to surprise them from above) and so on.

Risen, Gothic 2 or Dark Souls are three examples of games that nailed this aspect quite well, but there are also a lot of action adventures that can offer good inspiration in this sense (any Zelda or Darksiders, just to name popular examples).

I know what someone is going to say "platform in my action RPG? I don't want that".
But that's nonsense: we are already talking about what's essentially an action game, at least when it comes to exploration and combat.
Why not try to do "action" right, then?

 

[username_2064020]

I'm going to bump this thread because I was arguing about good world design with a couple of friends and that made me realize a couple more points.

Developers could also learn that big empty areas in open world games shouldn't be necessarily filled, overcrowded or contracted.
There are a lot of possible interesting uses for them.
For instance you could use a large plain for a long chase on horseback, a large mounted battle (think to Mount & Blade as reference) or you could use a large flat tundra/swamp for a spectacular battle against a large monster, in a Shadow of The Colossus-like fashion.

Stubbornly insisting on filling the landscape with a ruin, temple, dungeon or town every 20 meters is neither the most cost-effective system nor the best solution over all.
Let's stop doing this.

 

[Agent_Blue]

I'm going to bump this thread because I was arguing about good world design with a couple of friends and that made me realize a couple more points.

Developers could also learn that big empty areas in open world games shouldn't be necessarily filled, overcrowded or contracted.
There are a lot of possible interesting uses for them.
For instance you could use a large plain for a long chase on horseback, a large mounted battle (think to Mount & Blade as reference) or you could use a large flat tundra/swamp for a spectacular battle against a large monster, in a Shadow of The Colossus-like fashion.

Stubbornly insisting on filling the landscape with a ruin, temple, dungeon or town every 20 meters is neither the most cost-effective system nor the best solution over all.
Let's stop doing this.

Totally wholeheartedly agree!

Judging from the screenshots, I'd say it's a safe bet we're not going down that path.
There seems to be a huge amount of no-man's land in-between POI's. I especially love the way they seem to be playing around with scale using "white space".
In SKyrim there's little to no scale differentiation. Everything is just about the same size.

 

[niymiae]

And i'm going to bump this thread because is filled up with intelligent thoughts, a big * to... well, almost everything said in here.

 

[Archomides]

Nobody is more aware of the level of detail presented in the first two Witcher games than the good folk at CDPR themselves. From what I can gather these guys are genuinely aiming to create the best fantasy RPG world ever. Therefor I cannot believe they would neglect the level of detail they have provided us with in the past. If anything I think they will be working their socks off to add even more attention to detail than the other games, except on a much larger scale this time around. They are ambitious, always pushing the boundaries as far as they can and are taking a risk by moving the series in this new direction because they truly believe they can do even better - something I find commendable.

A local man perched upon a wooden beam playing his flute whilst the chef rotates a roasting hog on the spit below. A farmer warms his hands by the campfire as he keeps a watchful eye on his flock of sheep in the nearby field. Waves splash against the side of Geralts boat after a whale slams it's fin onto the waters icy surface. These are all tiny but important details already being displayed in the early screenshots in an attempt to draw us back into the vivid, believable world of The Witcher we have all come to enjoy in one form or another.

I've no doubt that CDPR have already come up with many unique and memorable places for great experiences. I do understand peoples concerns however, particularly where opening the world could lose focus on story and character. One thing I take comfort in when people express worries when comparing to Skyrim's weak story for example, is that we will be playing as an already established character oozing with personality, history, background and personal motives; we're not playing as a random, newly created character who can be anything they want. This is Geralt of Rivia, and I have every faith that CDPR can and will use this to their advantage to keep up the great non-linear story, consequential choices and character relations with others.

I also agree with the other posts here. Open spaces can be a good thing, particularly when scaled correctly. The real world is full of open, baron spaces after all. This is all part of being a huge open-world. Other games have made the mistake of trying to cram too much content into these spaces. Five dungeons far too close to one another being a prime example. It can suck out the fun of actually having to search for the unique places we all hope for. Again, every faith that CDPR will achieve many expectations and beyond.

 

[username_2064020]

Nobody is more aware of the level of detail presented in the first two Witcher games than the good folk at CDPR themselves. From what I can gather these guys are genuinely aiming to create the best fantasy RPG world ever. Therefor I cannot believe they would neglect the level of detail they have provided us with in the past.

I actually would hope for something more.
And just be clear, I'm not talking about cosmetic detail (TW2 was already outstanding in that sense). I'm talking about things I already hinted in my previous posts: more interaction with both scenario (climbing, jumping, sneaking, picking up and using things, etc) and NPCs (dialogue options, characters that acknowledge your actions), more vertical building and so on.

Just to re-use an example i already used in the past; while pretty, Floatsom felt more like a background than part of my gaming experience in TW2. most of those houses or characters wandering around were completely disconnected from my experience. They were "cosmetic detail" more than part of the game.

A local man perched upon a wooden beam playing his flute whilst the chef rotates a roasting hog on the spit below. A farmer warms his hands by the campfire as he keeps a watchful eye on his flock of sheep in the nearby field.

Yep, that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Pretty, for sure, but I would pick the quest about setting a dispute between the guy who plays the flute and the bully that wants he to stop over having just to look at them.
And that's because player agency should be the main thing in a game. What I do (and what I CAN do) is more relevant than what I can look at.

I've no doubt that CDPR have already come up with many unique and memorable places for great experiences.

I have literally zero concerns about how the game is going to look. I'm more focuses on how it's going to play.
If looking pretty and detailed was enough, then I would be happy even with Skyrim as a great example of RPG (which I'm not, for the record).

I do understand peoples concerns however, particularly where opening the world could lose focus on story and character.

That's not my concern either. Open world or not it doesn't really make any difference in how much story you can spoonfeed to the player. It hardly has an influence.
If anything, a larger world gives you even more chances to throw subplots around.

No, my concern isn't with the narrative, my concern is with pacing and gameplay.
Will the world be interesting enough to explore? Will it have enough secrets, hidden paths, hidden treasures, unique monsters, etc? Will the loot be distributed in a way that it keeps feel rewarding to achieve across the whole game? Will the combat be engaging, fun and challenging on the long run?

Are we going to have unique rewards placed in unique places or are they going for some crappy diablo-like random loot system, as many open world games did without realizing what they were throwing away in the process (this thing almost single-handedly ruined Darksiders 2, if compared with the original).

One thing I take comfort in when people express worries when comparing to Skyrim's weak story for example

This actually concerns me, because people don't seem to realize that even with the best story in the world tied in, Skyrim wouldn't be a good game anyway, exactly because the story isn't its big shortcoming.
What makes Skyrm crappy isn't how Umberto Eco didn't sign the script, it's how the combat sucks, it's how the level scaling and the loot scaling take away any sense of progress and reward, it's how every single subsystem in the game, crafting included, is unbalanced and game-breaker if exploited. But what's probably the worst offender is how out of hundreds of dungeons, not a single one seems to be even remotely enjoyable to explore.

 

[Blothulfur]

I remember in Ultima VII: The Black Gate when I arrived at Lord British's throne, the monarch urged me to live and work among his people, because there seemed to be a disquiet amongst them. So I aided the farmers bring in their crop, made bread with the baker, harvested eggs for a chicken keeper and generally lived amongst the good people of Britannia. It was an amazing way to immerse the player in the struggles and little stories that so enriched the setting, made it spring to life in a manner that not even New Vegas has managed so well.

That interaction with the game world is something i'd like to see more of, so long as it suits Geralt, obviously the Avatar and the witcher are totally different characters, but I do think there's a chance to integrate the white wolf more thoroughly into the world of the Northern Kingdoms.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

What makes Skyrm crappy isn't how Umberto Eco didn't sign the script, it's how the combat sucks, it's how the level scaling and the loot scaling take away any sense of progress and reward, it's how every single subsystem in the game, crafting included, is unbalanced and game-breaker if exploited. But what's probably the worst offender is how out of hundreds of dungeons, not a single one seems to be even remotely enjoyable to explore.

Nobody plays Skyrim with vanilla combat.

 

[ReptilePZ]

I do. Also, I'd much prefer the devs make sure their games are enjoyable or at least not broken in the vanilla version rather than to expect fans to fix their eff-ups. Or they need to provide long term support for the game. While Skyrim's releasing paid DLC that players have already modded (houses), Witcher 2 is releasing free Enhanced Editions.

 

[Agent_Blue]

Nobody plays Skyrim with vanilla combat.

Agent Blue reporting in.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

You're both missing out: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/searchresults/?cat=77 But you already knew that

 

[Agent_Blue]

You're both missing out: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/searchresults/?cat=77 But you already knew that />/>

Ah, well. Here's the thing. I have downloaded and installed a couple of mods. Some of them sheer genius. Paradoxically, I feel that too widespread use of mods might tempt Devs to get lax about their job, which is to make the best possible vanilla game, on account of the invisible pixie whispering in their ear "Don't worry, be happy. Mods will fix it".

But hey MODs, represent!

 

[harhar]

The exteriors in Skyrim were pretty bad imo. Heightmaps everywhere and a small amount of recognizable areas. The first Witcher 3 screens don't give me much hope to be honest. I don't know if they are but they certainly look like they were crafted with heightmaps too. The problem is not the open wordl (see Gothic) it's the size of the world (see Oblivion/Skyrim/Gothic 3) that's the problem. It just takes much much longer to make every area unique and detailed, that's why so many big games have so boring exteriors.

 

[username_2064020]

Nobody plays Skyrim with vanilla combat.

Does it even matter? There isn't a mod miraculous enough to turn Skyrim's combat system in something good.