About the swearing part..;. Fallout 3 has plenty of swearing... Guess who made it...
My Thoughts
The gaming industry has been sofening for a while now, most people will agree with you on that. look not only the gaming industry and you will see that the same characteristic rot is in the film industries and music industries. my point that the problem with the gaming industry is it has become larger, companies have become larger, and there is less space in the market. in the past game development didn't need to be as concerned with business interests, but now gaming is a stupidly large industry. this means that on the marketplace, in order to survive, you have to find a way to compete. CDPR are not excluded from this though. I will point out while CDPR make mature games and that they have their own politics, they are actually concerned with being politically correct, even more now that they are larger though you could say they tread the line. CDPR have been subject to change because of the growth of the company just like all are. This is probably most obvious in how the company has had to broadened their games for a larger audience. the witcher 2 and now 3 are more accessible and have elements that are designed with some consideration to that audience. CDPR are in a good place at the moment, where they are able to create interesting and mature stories, extremely high quality games without needing to make allot of space for money making over creative decisions. my hope is that they can keep this place because while they are there they can be innovative and avoid becoming sterile while creating amazing games. fans have to push this though, as long as CDPR exist people like those on this amazing forum will need to support CDPR to focus on creating innovative, mature games.
The gaming industry has been sofening for a while now, most people will agree with you on that. look not only the gaming industry and you will see that the same characteristic rot is in the film industries and music industries. my point that the problem with the gaming industry is it has become larger, companies have become larger, and there is less space in the market. in the past game development didn't need to be as concerned with business interests, but now gaming is a stupidly large industry. this means that on the marketplace, in order to survive, you have to find a way to compete. CDPR are not excluded from this though. I will point out while CDPR make mature games and that they have their own politics, they are actually concerned with being politically correct, even more now that they are larger though you could say they tread the line. CDPR have been subject to change because of the growth of the company just like all are. This is probably most obvious in how the company has had to broadened their games for a larger audience. the witcher 2 and now 3 are more accessible and have elements that are designed with some consideration to that audience. CDPR are in a good place at the moment, where they are able to create interesting and mature stories, extremely high quality games without needing to make allot of space for money making over creative decisions. my hope is that they can keep this place because while they are there they can be innovative and avoid becoming sterile while creating amazing games. fans have to push this though, as long as CDPR exist people like those on this amazing forum will need to support CDPR to focus on creating innovative, mature games.
I'll parrot this and expand on it a bit. I don't think it's necessarily all western devs, I think it's an issue with the triple a games industry. Their end game is sales, and they want to boil down a formula that will guarantee sales, of course that doesn't really exist, but they want it to. So the people who truly lead the "creative" department, is marketers. They look at statistics, they look at what has sold well in the past, the look at what other games are doing, and they look at what test well in the 8 to 12 year old demographic, the 13 to 17 year old demographic, and the 18 to 25 demographic. Then they have these parameters and they say "Make a game with this, this and this." those requirements could be features like and open world, or a genre like an FPS, or a game with a generic "you're a super powerful dude who kills lots of people" shtick. They could be gameplay features like gun unlocks, or light RPG mechanics. Whatever they think will sell well for that release. Then the developer is given the money and can make a game within that structure but it needs to hit all the beats.
Or at least that's what I've inferred from the amount of time I've wasted reading and talking about the games industry.
Whereas with a more independent company like CDPR, Obsidian, or Tripwire. They're free to do what they want more or less, they probably have some investors, sure, but their budget isn't as massive as a triple A games, and their sales goals aren't as insane. You hear companies these days saying if a game doesn't sell five million copies (Tomb Raider) or 4 million copies (dead space 3) then it won't be financially successful. It also makes you wonder where all the money they put into these games goes.
The triple A industry is run by people who don't particularly like games. Whereas the more independent developers do like games, and aren't just in it because they're no longer CEO of Mattel or whatever.
So, to wrap it up, all of this boils down to a very laid back comfortable experience where the player gets a pat on the back every few minutes just for playing. Which while it does exploit your psychology (CoD is more or less the father of this tactic, and I could write a lot more on that) it doesn't lead to a particularly engaging experience if you're more familiar with gaming. Which is why I think most of us who are fans of CDPR like their games. They tend not to hold our hands, and affirm every choice we make, it's left up in the air if we did the right thing or not. There's no morality system in the corner popping up and letting us know each time we make a choice that we did the right thing or the wrong thing in that situation.
I could go on, but that's enough rambling for now.
Why are people so afraid of criticizing Bethesda? You'd think they were mother theresa herself. I don't love that sky-game. I didn't play it for 1000 hours. I played it for 20 and couldn't stand another moment. I prefer C&C and writing in my games.
That's because Bethesda's board of directors is interested in money, and therefore the audience has to be as broad as possible and include children. When you want a broad audience you need to avoid offending anyone. It's the same reason Hollywood's movies are so mediocre: they appeal a little to everyone and not a whole lot to anyone.
CDPR is different because they have a more niche audience, which is hopefully big enough to keep them funded. They also come from a country with a strong tradition in literature and with plenty of talent in software development. (It's not the only such country. I'm just saying it definitely helps.)
Btw, I like how they're also basing their SF game (Cyberpunk) on literature. I really hope they continue down this route and that other devs take notice. It helps a lot if you have rich lore.
That is exactly how I feel about the direction that Western RPG's are heading, it shouldn't be all about sales, if they make the game that THEY want to play themselves then the sales should take care of themselves! It would be interesting to see how a conservative Western RPG such as Skyrim sells compared to the much more Mature Witcher 3 I think people might be surprised. I could handle the less Mature attitude in Western RPG's if they figured out how to do a proper plot and storyline and made the charachters more involved and interesting.
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I think that is it exactly, the Western rating system has not grown with society, at some stage the raters considered Nudity absolutely a no-go zone and it has been that way ever since despite the way Movies and media have headed. (Some would say its the same thing with the American Constitution which was written in the 1800's and in no way seems relevant to a Modern America) . Obviously given my name I am from Australia, now we basically followed America when it came to Censorship and Ratings, but recently we brought in a new Rating system for games similar to that of other Media formats such as Movies. This enabled previously banned games under the old rating system to be sold here in Australia not to mention future games that would have been blocked from now being sold under a M or R logo. So basically when it is all seen and done, Australia's rating system DID evolve when it became apparent that it was totally outdated and no longer appropiate, maybe America and other Western Countries need to do the same?
Actually, the ESRB has absolutely evolved. They haven't rewritten the actual ratings like AU but what is/isn't permissive has definitely evolved with the times. The levels of Sex, nudity, and especially violence is far higher than its ever been. In the early 2001 people lost their minds because the car in GTA3 jumped up and down.. 14 years later and we're seeing full frontal and anal penetration under the same "M" rating.
Speaking of which, that new system in AUS doesn't seem to be making much difference. The Australian ratings board is still banning and forcing censorship. Hotline Miami 2 was banned just this year for a crummy 8bit rape scene. Last year South Park: The Stick of Truth had to be heavily censored. Meanwhile, in NA, those games have not come under any scrutiny besides from certain industry publications with an agenda.
A part of the answer to this is probably Education. Back in the golden age of gaming the vast majority of the game programmers were self-taught in the ways of gaming if not in programming itself. A consequence of this is the old days were "wilder", more edgy, while the present generation of devs in established game dev countries are basically learn the same stuff and come to the job with the same ideas & structures.
Our friends in Poland have a wild side, and aren't afraid to exercise it, much to their credit and our benefit.
Our friends in Poland have a wild side, and aren't afraid to exercise it, much to their credit and our benefit.
I like the fact that CDPR has a more mature storyline than other games. It also is an interesting concept that there is no good or evil when you make a choice, but only the consequence of that choice that matters. And I liked the fact that that choice you made was reflected in the story of the witcher 1 and 2. And I'm glad to hear that The Witcher won't be all about fetch quests (there can always be a few, but too much about it, makes it boring).
...and life is scary!Yeah...a concept called life
Seriously, though, I think it's kind of a self escalating cicle in western media by now. Inoffensive content sells to the biggest audience, the bigger the audience the more people can be offended by something, the more the content has to be streamlined to not be offensive, etc. All the while, side businesses and investments (ie marketing, media) are growing and expanding until it all all blows up. CDPR has the right idea in the one way that they do not conform /follow the trends, so when the US games market does crash, they might very well be among those to come out on top.
@warbaby2: Will it though? I'm the first to say that the trend of the industry in the last couple of years doesn't make me happy, but sadly, that's what the masses want, obviously. As long as all those titles sell good, nothing's gonna change. Take BF4 launch for example. Or AC:U. One would assume people would learn from their mistakes and next time vote with their wallets, because it's the only way to change things. Nah...lost my faith. All that's left is hoping for more studios like CDPR that make games they wanna do, that go their own way, following their vision, without interference of some major company telling them where to dull the edges or what to leave out completely because it might offend some people.
I think it's less Western Developers getting soft, and more a combination of hard games becoming a dying breed, hard games being hard to do while keeping the interest of many, and big name publishers not wanting to take the risk due to wanting maximum profit. I will elaborate on this:
There are many different types of games, and many different types of gamers. And these people have different tastes. For example, I myself sometimes want a challenge, and sometimes i want to breeze though the game like I'm superman times 100. So there must be different types of games to live up to this. The issue comes from when the majority of gamers, the average joe as it were, wants something they can play easy like Call of Duty. If the money in the industry is to make easy games, then big name companies will make easy games. Furthermore, to make a game that is hard but at the same time compelling enough for all gamers is hard. For example, I love the atmosphere of Bloodborne, but I cannot get past that brick wall of "This game is gonna kick my arse from here to everywhere." And I suppose it's the same for many. And it's a fear I have with The Witcher 3: that the controls will be confusing, that I won't grasp the way the inventory and skills work, that I will head off in one direction and get my ass kicked by a level 50 golem the size of a hill, which will frustrate me to no end despite me going THIS IS EPIC!" That sort of thing can turn people off of a game.
So to sum up my opinion:
Both hard and easy games are a necessity
The issue with game makers making easy games is mostly due to publishers wanting easy games for more money
To combat this situation, game makers need to make a game that can be hard and/or easy, and if they want it hard they DO need to make it accessible to most gamers, which is where a game like Bloodbrone or Souls tends to fail due to the wall. For example, one thing that keeps people playing a game like, say, Super Meat Boy despite it;s difficulty is the fact that reloads and the llke are instant so thefre is that one more go factor.
Though most of this is justrambling, I feel I needed to say it.
There are many different types of games, and many different types of gamers. And these people have different tastes. For example, I myself sometimes want a challenge, and sometimes i want to breeze though the game like I'm superman times 100. So there must be different types of games to live up to this. The issue comes from when the majority of gamers, the average joe as it were, wants something they can play easy like Call of Duty. If the money in the industry is to make easy games, then big name companies will make easy games. Furthermore, to make a game that is hard but at the same time compelling enough for all gamers is hard. For example, I love the atmosphere of Bloodborne, but I cannot get past that brick wall of "This game is gonna kick my arse from here to everywhere." And I suppose it's the same for many. And it's a fear I have with The Witcher 3: that the controls will be confusing, that I won't grasp the way the inventory and skills work, that I will head off in one direction and get my ass kicked by a level 50 golem the size of a hill, which will frustrate me to no end despite me going THIS IS EPIC!" That sort of thing can turn people off of a game.
So to sum up my opinion:
Both hard and easy games are a necessity
The issue with game makers making easy games is mostly due to publishers wanting easy games for more money
To combat this situation, game makers need to make a game that can be hard and/or easy, and if they want it hard they DO need to make it accessible to most gamers, which is where a game like Bloodbrone or Souls tends to fail due to the wall. For example, one thing that keeps people playing a game like, say, Super Meat Boy despite it;s difficulty is the fact that reloads and the llke are instant so thefre is that one more go factor.
Though most of this is justrambling, I feel I needed to say it.
I like CDPR because they do what they think it's best without worrying that someone might be offended by imaginary things. They have their vision and they follow it. They believe making game is also an art and should be something where every creative man should be free to tell the story they want the way they intended to.
I think using the label Westerner developer isn't going to cut that well you should probably use the word American producers. Unfortunately it's the US public opinion who is quite obsessed about political correctness in every form of expression. I think here in Europe (outside of politics) people are more free to create the story they want without being condemned for doing so or for not having included a very demanding permalous minority. TW games made by an European company proved that.
Rockstar also have no problem with that either, notice that the original founders of the company were British (Europeans). I think this is more a problem with US public opinion.
I think using the label Westerner developer isn't going to cut that well you should probably use the word American producers. Unfortunately it's the US public opinion who is quite obsessed about political correctness in every form of expression. I think here in Europe (outside of politics) people are more free to create the story they want without being condemned for doing so or for not having included a very demanding permalous minority. TW games made by an European company proved that.
Rockstar also have no problem with that either, notice that the original founders of the company were British (Europeans). I think this is more a problem with US public opinion.
Well, yes and no... like everywhere in the west, they have let them self be drawn into the big corporate realm, for funding and security in the free market. Problem is, now they are at the whim of financial analysts and marketing people, that all try to sell a product, not make "art". Companies like CDPR don't have those restrictions, so they can put quality over quantity.
That what difficulty levels are for, if done right you can have both. I wasn't and don't think the OP was simply talking about game difficulty itself, but complexity and lack of depth... That how I'm looking at it anyway.
But as far as difficulty goes: Why do games like Dark Souls release without an easier game difficulty setting? I for one didn't buy it because of all the reviews saying it was too difficult. I don't have enough gaming time to waist on playing a game that might only accomplish to annoy me more than I have fun with it. Who knows maybe it'd be simple for me but when so many games out there with difficulty settings exist why bother?
Link forgotten?
Seriously, this. Ljesnjanin have a right idea
Very wierd... that means he stops thinking of FrXXXXXX of VXXX for a moment!
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Yes.... they have been soft for at least 5 years ...... but most gamers like it that way .... buying the same game over and over