Are you worried Witcher 3 was "Jump the shark" & future CDPR games will get worse?

[Linkenski]

Are you worried Witcher 3 was "Jump the shark" & future CDPR games will get worse?

Witcher 3 really did something for this company. They slightly tweaked certain things vision-wise from their roots of TW1 and 2 to reach a broader audiene and personally I think the end result is super respectable and I overall prefer TW3 a lot to their previous games. It's just such an achievement not just for these guys but for AAA and next gen in my view. That said, I'm a bit worried, particularly regarding the evolvement of GoG and outside influences like social media, GDC and other things that, now what CDPR is on the map as one of the bigwigs in AAA, they'll start to lose their way more and more until they're just another dirty AAA developer.

I have not followed GoG closely other than that I really like how much new releases are also on the platform nowadays and I can still download stuff DRM-free without that GoG-galaxy thing I have never touched, nor do I intend to, but I heard last year that they got a new CEO and in the meantime they've gotten more presentable. I also imagine CDPR is a growing company and as such, worry they'll start to risk less on big projects and go even more where it's popular to be. Witcher 3 had me worried at first because it was marketed obviously as a Skyrim-killer but to everyone's rejoice its size boasting didn't mean we got a less original game as they, much like they said, redefined RPG or at least took the very best elements of all types of RPG and combined them into one.

My worries for future products mostly come from certain signs within Witcher 3. The main story had a few issues towards the end but honestly I don't read much into this as it at least had 3 very distinct epilogues and Witcher 2 also had a pretty abrupt ending originally. Aside from a few crunch-cycle related issues, there were things from Witcher 2 that didn't make it to TW3 like the hush-hushness of sex, a little bit of feminism (sometimes I feel lukewarm about Ciri's portrayal. She's too ideal somehow). I know all "SJW" talk is controversial but I feel like CDPR is a company that's bold in that they don't jump on that bandwagon of accounting for every type of person or adjust their lore accordingly unlike BioWare or most other big devs that really started sacrificing their integrity for social justice; inserting the political views of the devs and bias their narrative with it.

Really, there's no concrete sign yet that CDPR is gonna go down in that rabbithole, but there are so many things going on in the social media right now and other big AAA releases it's hard not to comply as a big-risk product maker I bet. The same thing applies to the notion that gaming is moving into a "post-story" world where idiotic developers claim that "characters are more important than story" and strive to make "emergent narrative" to the point where more and more devs claim the 3-act structure shouldn't apply to gaming. It's all a bit slippery slope of bad faulty reasoning based on observations that are misguided.

I just wanted to give it a shoutout, Witcher 3 that is. That game is so damn near perfect for what a video game in 2015+ can do. I really hope CDPR stick to the lessons learned with TW3; that it is a very good game that created a mainstream goodwill towards this company that's almost absurd if you check r/gaming or elsewhere. I don't think CDPR should afford to lose that by complying to popular trends. Really, they should just stick to their guns and dive headfirst into TW4 and Cyberpunk with every part of the same ideology that made them create TW3. You guys rock, that's what I wanna say.

I hope you can keep this amazing work up for decades and never lose your edge unlike other big developers in the biz!

 

[Kallelinski]

Well said, well said.

Really, they should just stick to their guns and dive headfirst into TW4 and Cyberpunk with every part of the same ideology that made them create TW3. You guys rock, that's what I wanna say.

I hope you can keep this amazing work up for decades and never lose your edge unlike other big developers in the biz!

Yup, keep true to yourself. Don't let the mainstream fool you ever, do what you like to do and there will be people, who will appreciate that just like always.

 

[Ayyub]

I fully share your apprehensions, but I have to be frank that flirting with a mass audience, stepping back from the origins and other unpleasant signs of depersonalization of the series took place in TW2.

 

[shawn_kh]

I know all "SJW" talk is controversial but I feel like CDPR is a company that's bold in that they don't jump on that bandwagon of accounting for every type of person or adjust their lore accordingly unlike BioWare or most other big devs that really started sacrificing their integrity for social justice; inserting the political views of the devs and bias their narrative with it.

Completely disagree with this part. I think CDPR caved in when it came to pissed off feminists bashing the Witcher games, and we clearly see its negative effects in the dynamics between the characters. The whole dynamic and relationships between the male and female characters in the Witcher 3 was lopsided and unrealistic, and it led to some of the games worst shortcomings including characters feeling not genuine and unlikable.

1. CDPR fell into the cliche' of all men are dumb and women are smart. Prime example of this was Hjalmar being the dumbest feller in Skellige and Cerys being the only reasonable character out of the bunch. It really undermined the decision making and the gray area of decision where CDPR excelled at before.

2. Many of the female characters fell into the unrealistic and unrelatable realm, because they were independent and badass try-hards and it detracted from their humility and common sense at times. It actually made some of them come off as disrespectful douche bags. I don't know how to put it, but it seemed like obnoxious badassness and not genuine.

3. Number 2 gravely hurt the game especially when it came to Geralt and Yennefer's relationship. Yennefer was lopsidedly dominant, rude, and pushy, which really did injustice to Geralt and Yen's relationship from the books. On the other hand Geralt came off as a mindless wuss that just followed instructions, while he was constantly demeaned and disrespected. Geralt and Yen's relationship was two sided and fun in the books. It was a relationship where two strong people came together and tested each others wit while they respected one another at the same time.


I found the Witcher 1's sex cards or whatever you call them to be distasteful, but I also think going the other way too much in the Witcher 3 hurt the game as well.

 

[Garrison72]

I think Cerys is the only blatant example to cater to feminists or progressives, and even it was done better than most instances of that kind of thing. The rest is simply cut content, constraints on the writers, and/or bad writing. Plain and simple. They lost some writers and hired some writers, and not all of them are going to be on the same level. As for them jumping the shark, the expansions show just the opposite. They made numerous improvements in a short period of time.

 

[shawn_kh]

I think Cerys is the only blatant example to cater to feminists or progressives, and even it was done better than most instances of that kind of thing. The rest is simply cut content, constraints on the writers, and/or bad writing. Plain and simple. They lost some writers and hired some writers, and not all of them are going to be on the same level. As for them jumping the shark, the expansions show just the opposite. They made numerous improvements in a short period of time.

Maybe you're right. On that note I also think Blood and Wine was much better than the Witcher 3's main story, and it felt more like a game done by CDPR compared to the main game's narrative.

I personally think CDPR trying to cater and please too many different groups with the Witcher 3 led to the main story's shortcomings. They tried to please the book fans, feminists who had problems with the previous games, new comers to the series, and so on. It is an impossible task and it took its toll on the game.

I'd like to have the old CDPR back. The one that replaced Yennefer with a red haired Triss and almost completely ignored Ciri even existed while not giving two shits about the backlash from the book fans. I love the books, but the Witcher 1 felt like something fresh with its own identity. It felt like its own game. The Witcher 3 just ended being a poor sequel to the books, and it really ruined it for me. I felt like we got a glimpse of the CDPR that was behind the Witcher 1 and 2 with Blood and Wine though.

 

[cyberpunkforever]

this analisis makes sense, but for now the devs are developing a new game and everything is on the right way, they are in the "road of quality"
there is no reason to worry now,

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

If lack of Linux release of TW3 is a sign of "jumping the shark", then yeah, I do have concerns that future games will have the same problem. It's a change for the worse, and the one that CDPR persistently ignored to communicate to the community, avoiding all questions about this issue.

 

[Haralder]

I think Cerys is the only blatant example to cater to feminists or progressives, and even it was done better than most instances of that kind of thing. The rest is simply cut content, constraints on the writers, and/or bad writing. Plain and simple. They lost some writers and hired some writers, and not all of them are going to be on the same level. As for them jumping the shark, the expansions show just the opposite. They made numerous improvements in a short period of time.

Actually, Cerys becoming a queen would not be strange to me. A female ruler has always been quite normal for Scandinavian countries. Although, the shieldmaidens in each every village seem really misplaced. They could participate in forays, but it is highly unusual to watch them standing as sentinels.

 

[Pasnius]

Of course it will get worse. CDPR now has ~600 employees. They started hiring tons of foreigners after Witcher 3. The company culture obviously starts dissipating, and with less polish people in lead positions, you can't really expect a lot of the country's influence in the final game.

CDPR had a good run though, it's the memories that count. I expect everything from now on to go downhill though, kinda like BioWare.

 

[immessingaround]

I don't think CDPR caved when it comes to all that SJW nonsense, and here's why: Kiera Mertz.

For most players, Kiera Mertz is the first woman you romance and have sex with in the Witcher 3, if you decide to do so. And during these quests you meet and interact with her, she is pretty manipulative. But, 2/3 of the endings of what happens to her is 100% proof of not pandering or caving in to feminists or SJW's.

1. You're forced to kill her. Its surprising to have this outcome, but nothing really too outrageous. You can ignore this point if you want.
2. But this ending, HOLY ****. This is the entire point of my post and the complete opposite of what hideous BiowarEA would do to a female character you have a romance with:

http://imgur.com/a/D2mq9
http://imgur.com/a/PNCjx
http://imgur.com/a/r5TA4


It takes real guts to have an outcome like this. This outcome of what happens to Kiera is just absolutely nuts. No other AAA rpg dev would do this. Bioware and bethesda wouldn't even dream of it. This is why I have faith that cyberpunk and witcher 4 will be fine. As long as CDPR stays the course, their games will be AAA RPG masterpieces.

 

[sv3672]

The company culture obviously starts dissipating, and with less polish people in lead positions, you can't really expect a lot of the country's influence in the final game.

That should not be a problem if they are making games that are not Polish themed, like Cyberpunk 2077.

 

[NukeTheMoon]

My worries for future products mostly come from certain signs within Witcher 3. The main story had a few issues towards the end but honestly I don't read much into this as it at least had 3 very distinct epilogues and Witcher 2 also had a pretty abrupt ending originally. Aside from a few crunch-cycle related issues, there were things from Witcher 2 that didn't make it to TW3 like the hush-hushness of sex, a little bit of feminism (sometimes I feel lukewarm about Ciri's portrayal. She's too ideal somehow). I know all "SJW" talk is controversial but I feel like CDPR is a company that's bold in that they don't jump on that bandwagon of accounting for every type of person or adjust their lore accordingly unlike BioWare or most other big devs that really started sacrificing their integrity for social justice; inserting the political views of the devs and bias their narrative with it.

Really, there's no concrete sign yet that CDPR is gonna go down in that rabbithole, but there are so many things going on in the social media right now and other big AAA releases it's hard not to comply as a big-risk product maker I bet. The same thing applies to the notion that gaming is moving into a "post-story" world where idiotic developers claim that "characters are more important than story" and strive to make "emergent narrative" to the point where more and more devs claim the 3-act structure shouldn't apply to gaming. It's all a bit slippery slope of bad faulty reasoning based on observations that are misguided.

I have no idea what you mean by the "hush-hushness of sex."
As for feminism in the Witcher, regardless of you're stance on feminism, in a game with this many storylines and characters, whether or not there was "feminism" in the game is entirely opinion. As is "how much" there was or was not.

It's good that you yourself can identify something that sounds like "SJW talk", it shows you are maturing.
Know that SJW talk isn't controversial, it's insulting.

There are people who donate a considerable amount of money every month, automatically, to charities for hungry and abused children in our own countries.
With specialty programs for gifts around Christmas time.
They receive tax deductions every year, and most of these programs track $$$ over the years. If you offer just $100 a month, you will donate tens of thousands over your lifetime.
Doing real good.

The people involved with these programs, investing the hours of their lives to create the money in the account that goes towards these causes, absolutely despise SJW bullsh*t.
People who complain about nonsense, so they can show everybody how noble they are, and how much they are better than everyone else, because they care more than everybody else.

Then they ask for you to visit their Patreon and donate. Not to the poor, hungry, abused and neglected children.
Just them, to supplement their YouTube advertisement income.
Smugness personified.
You yourself with Andromedia see what SJW stupidity leads to. So did Bioware's investors.
I'm pretty sure the game development community took notice, at least the smart developers will. I put CDPR in that category.

I don't think social media is going to "effect" CDPR into creating a 15 minutes tirade about a gay relationships like ME3 or making every person bi-sexual like Fallout 4.

I think most companies and CDPR realizes that trying to appeal to SJW-douchebags just annoys their actual audience of normal, decent people that cares about their games. That means ignoring the wailing of self righteous attention whores.

This doesn't preclude strong female characters or non-straight charcters in the world, it just means they'll be represented in a realistic, real world way. Not to be a blantant point to be their in and of itself, forcing itself in your face like SJW's with their opinions.

 

[NukeTheMoon]

I fully share your apprehensions, but I have to be frank that flirting with a mass audience, stepping back from the origins and other unpleasant signs of depersonalization of the series took place in TW2.

How, exactly? Because it had combat that wasn't a rhythm game? Or was in the amazing graphics? Maybe it was great voice work, or the self contained story.
Was it a perfect game? No, but its pretty damned good.

 

[NukeTheMoon]

Completely disagree with this part. I think CDPR caved in when it came to pissed off feminists bashing the Witcher games, and we clearly see its negative effects in the dynamics between the characters. The whole dynamic and relationships between the male and female characters in the Witcher 3 was lopsided and unrealistic, and it led to some of the games worst shortcomings including characters feeling not genuine and unlikable.

1. CDPR fell into the cliche' of all men are dumb and women are smart. Prime example of this was Hjalmar being the dumbest feller in Skellige and Cerys being the only reasonable character out of the bunch. It really undermined the decision making and the gray area of decision where CDPR excelled at before.

2. Many of the female characters fell into the unrealistic and unrelatable realm, because they were independent and badass try-hards and it detracted from their humility and common sense at times. It actually made some of them come off as disrespectful douche bags. I don't know how to put it, but it seemed like obnoxious badassness and not genuine.

3. Number 2 gravely hurt the game especially when it came to Geralt and Yennefer's relationship. Yennefer was lopsidedly dominant, rude, and pushy, which really did injustice to Geralt and Yen's relationship from the books. On the other hand Geralt came off as a mindless wuss that just followed instructions, while he was constantly demeaned and disrespected. Geralt and Yen's relationship was two sided and fun in the books. It was a relationship where two strong people came together and tested each others wit while they respected one another at the same time.

1. Yes, CDPR caved to feminists, after all, they included prostitution, and you know how much feminists approve of prostitution.
Also, none of the bang-able women are fat or ugly. There are almost no fatties.
Hjalmar isn't stupid. Hot headed, yes, stupid, no. He's a typical Viking type character.
I would say most the characters are pretty smart, unless we're talking about a side-quest NPC who can't find a dead body 50 feet away from their house or something.

2. Cite examples. And not sorceresses. If, I stress "if" you read the books, then you know why sorceresses act that way, Sorcerers too.

3. Yennefer is, and has always been lopsidedly dominate, rude, and pushy. Did you read about when Geralt spent 4 years with her in Venderburg, how she would throw jars of preserve at him, how there were things he didn't bring up in conversation because it would start a fight and a fight it was dangerous. How do you define dominate if not controlling what the other person even talks about.

As for being rude, she was always rude, and made a point of being so. She's never cared for other people's feelings in the books besides Geralt and Ciri, and them, only rarely.

How about when she, herself always bitching and moaning about being sterilized, decided to put Ciri in magic school, to be sterilized, and lose all connection to anyone outside The Chapter like all sorceress do after 10 years plus of education?
She tells Geralt to forget about Cir becoming a Witcher, she's going to become a sorceress. All Geralt asked her to do was stop her visions so the episodes wouldn't hurt her.

How is that not pushy as hell. "I'm putting your adopted daughter in a private boarding school for 10 years, and she'll mostly forget you once she gets out." "Love me."

How about Risking Ciri in the tower of Thaneth but putting her in a trance and sticking her in front of all the Mages as a political tool against Phillipa for some reason? Kindof a rude thing to do, rendering someone incapable of resisting, and using them. Putting them in danger in the process.
Every single thing that happened to Ciri, losing the power, Bonhart, was because of that.


Why is it that everyone in the book, either fears Yennifer like Dandelion, or think she's a bitch? Because she's arrogant, rude and pushy, like most sorceresses. She isn't any different than Phillipa, she just happens to care about two people that Phillipa doesn't.
Exactly as it was in the books.
As a matter of fact, she's far nicer in the games than she is in the books.

 

[NukeTheMoon]

If lack of Linux release of TW3 is a sign of "jumping the shark", then yeah, I do have concerns that future games will have the same problem. It's a change for the worse, and the one that CDPR persistently ignored to communicate to the community, avoiding all questions about this issue.

TW3 won't be on Linux, who cares?

You're not going to use DirectX with Linux unless you do so with an emulator. In which case just emulate everything.

Are you living in the days of Software Rendered games being enhanced with OpenGL / DirectX or something? Those days are long gone.

It's a massive under-taking to change a rendering engine from DirectX to OpenGL. And what for? Some people who choose not to use Windows for some reason? A niche of users within the niche of PC gaming? You expect them to rewrite their game into a different graphic API for that?

And THAT is what shows their falling as a developer? What bullsh*t.

 

[Guest 3847602]

Meh, never saw the thing between Cerys and Hjalmar as anything feminism-related. It's not the choice between the oppressed female vs privileged male. It's not "vote for me and muh vagina" and whatnot. I think most people who helped Cerys did it because investigating clues and finding evidence was something that made more sense for Geralt to do.
So yeah, the way choice was framed was cliche and biased as hell in Cerys' favor, but I didn't see anything malicious and preachy about it.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

It's a massive under-taking to change a rendering engine from DirectX to OpenGL.

If you didn't keep track of the issue, CDPR said they'll release TW3 for Linux, and never did. So whether it's difficult for them to rewrite the engine or not difficult, whether they can use a wrapper or not, is irrelevant in this discussion. The point is, they failed to do what they initially said they'll do, and later they utterly failed in communicating it to people who were waiting.

TW3 won't be on Linux, who cares?

I care about the game, but not about CDPR anymore at this point. They might redeem themselves with CP2077 for Linux, but I'm not expecting them to. Time will tell whether they'll use Vulkan (which will simplify potential porting), or they'll be stuck with MS lock-in and DX12.

And THAT is what shows their falling as a developer?

I'm sure it wasn't the failure of their developers, but of their management, both in bad planning, eventual cancelling and total lack of communication on this issue.

 

[NukeTheMoon]

If you didn't keep track of the issue, CDPR said they'll release TW3 for Linux, and never did. So whether it's difficult for them to rewrite the engine or not difficult, whether they can use a wrapper or not, is irrelevant in this discussion. The point is, they failed to do what they initially said they'll do, and later they utterly failed in communicating it to people who were waiting.


I care about the game, but not about CDPR anymore at this point. They might redeem themselves with CP2077 for Linux, but I'm not expecting them to. Time will tell whether they'll use Vulkan (which will simplify potential porting), or they'll be stuck with MS lock-in and DX12.



I'm sure it wasn't the failure of their developers, but of their management, both in bad planning, eventual cancelling and total lack of communication on this issue.

Saying they'll do something, and then not doing it, is a bad thing, I agree.
But backing out of a fruitless port isn't exactly high on the list of unforgivable sins, or representative of a cataclysmic fall from grace either.

Neither is shunning OpenGL for DirectX.
You aren't entitled to having a studio develop on your platform. They choose the ones that makes the most financial sense. Then there are consequences for the people using freeware OS, but they clearly don't number enough to matter.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Saying they'll do something, and then not doing it, is a bad thing, I agree.
But backing out of a fruitless port isn't exactly high on the list of unforgivable sins, or representative of a cataclysmic fall from grace either.

For Linux users it is. It's basically adieu for developers who don't care about us. Entitled is a wrong word for expecting what was promised. Studio will do whatever they'll do, but for me it's clearly a major decline in CDPR and a sign that potentially I don't need to care about them in the future, same as I don't care about EA or Bethesda.

You can review this timeline: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/wiki/T...r_3_Linux_port