Armor and full burst

[Axel9fr]

Armor and full burst

Hi All,

I have 2 problems with Cyberpunk 2020 system : Armor rating and full burst.

I ask me some questions with FNFF combat system. I don't know how do you do to manage your combat sequence with light and medium weapon.

The armor AP is quickly high for character, because easy to buy. And I don't speak about wear the multi armors....
The standard weapon are 10mm, 2d6+3. How can you affraid armored players juste a wear AP16 and the weapon do nothing.

Same thing with full bust PM like the Militech Minigun Gatling. ROF 40 Yeah !!!!, Damage 1d6 Booooooo !!!!

Why ? Simply because with a normal skinweave, or a gearwear AP12 you are not affect by this weapon. And it's not the only useless gun....

How do you do to manage this, because the only solution for affraid armored player are the assault rifle and very heavy machin gun ?


Second question in the same way, the full burst is very difficult to report. For example if I use a weapon with ROF 40, you shoot one target at short range. So the max hit is 20 (ROF /2 on one target) and it's easy to succes this number of hit.

20 hits, 20 rolls damages dices !!!!!

With the Militech Minigun Gatling versus AP12 armor it's easy, no damages... (I find this crazy...and not real, like I ask me in my first question).
With a Tohiatsu Minivulcan with 8d10AP damage no question too, the target is simply....dead.

But with a 3d6 weapon damage, do you roll every 20 hits ? It can be too long and boring in the table ?


What are your solution for this both question in your table ?


PS : sorry for my bad english I'm French.

 

[Suhiira]

Keep in mind the sidebar on pg# 101 in CP2020, and the highlighted sentence on pg# 103 "A body Type Modifier may never reduce damage to less then one -". The (rather unclear) intent is that no matter how much armor you have whenever you get hit you take a minimum of one point of damage. So your Militech Minigun Gatling while it only does 1d6 per hit still does 40 damage if all 40 rounds hit regardless of the targets armor.
If you manage to hit with every bullet then yes you're suppose to generate a hit location and damage from each and every round. But for the most part you can ignore this. Just take (number of hits * (average damage per hit - average armor SP)) and start checking off boxes in the Wound section. In most cases multiple hits = red mist. If you want to get complex (or the average hit won't penetrate the targets average SP) you can factor in the probable number of max damage hits and calculate the damage generated and add one point per non penetrating hit.
Then there's the ever-popular (roll a bucket 'o dice and add up the total - (total number of hits * targets average SP)).
Yes, high rate of fire automatic weapons are a bit of a pain due to the required math. But if you want the advantages of that rate of fire you pay the price in extra math.

I'll be the first to say armor doesn't work this way in reality (I use my own home made/modified armor/damage system) but for the sake of ease of play that's how it works in the game.

####################

Gardez à l'esprit l'encadré à la page n ° 101 à CP2020 , et la phrase soulignée à la page n ° 103 " Un type de corps modificateur ne peut jamais réduire les dommages à moins d'un - " . Le ( pas très clair ) l'intention est que peu importe combien d'armure que vous avez lorsque vous êtes touché , vous prenez un minimum d'un point de dégât . Donc, votre Militech Minigun Gatling alors qu'il ne fait 1d6 par coup fait encore 40 points de dégâts si les 40 tours frappé indépendamment de l'armure des cibles .
Si vous parvenez à frapper chaque balle alors oui, vous êtes suppose de générer un emplacement de succès et les dommages causés par chaque tour. Mais pour la plupart, vous pouvez l'ignorer. Il suffit de prendre ( nombre de visites * (dommages moyenne par coup - armure SP moyenne ) ) et commencer cochant les cases de la section de la plaie . Dans la plupart des cas, de multiples coups = brume rouge . Si vous souhaitez obtenir complexe ( ou le coup moyenne ne pénétrer dans les objectifs SP moyenne ), vous pouvez prendre en compte le nombre probable de Max Damage résultats et calculer les dommages générés et ajouter un point par coup non pénétrant .
Ensuite, il ya la toujours populaire ( rouler un seau ' o dés et ajouter le total - ( nombre total de visites * cibles SP moyenne ) ) .
Oui , le taux élevé d'armes automatiques d'incendie sont un peu de douleur à cause de la mathématique nécessaire . Mais si vous voulez les avantages de cette cadence de tir vous payez le prix en cours de mathématiques supplémentaires .

Je serai le premier à dire armure ne fonctionne pas de cette façon dans la réalité (j'utilise ma propre maison faite / modifié armure / système de dégâts ), mais pour des raisons de facilité de jeu c'est comme ça que cela fonctionne dans le jeu .

 

[guidokpd]

The solution to high armor SP is armor piercing rounds. Armor piercing rounds reduce the SP by half. SP 16 is reduced to 8. Any damage that gets through the armor is reduced by BTM to a minimum of 1. Also, any time that armor is pierced the SP of the armor for the area drops by 1. Also, using bigger guns help.

For full auto fire first the target has to be overcome. For instance firing 40 rounds from medium range, difficulty 20, you would need a 40 to make 20 rounds hit.

One round hits for every number over the difficulty. Shooting full auto with a difficulty of 20 and roll a 24 then 4 rounds hit. If firing at more than one target the rounds that hit are divided between the targets subtracting one for each meter between the targets.

With enough damage, yes the target is just dead. An 8d10 damage weapon is usually for shooting at armored vehicles. Death to PCs.

At my table I limit armor to one layer. Also, any time someone is shot and it does not go through the armor they take one stun. It takes a lot of stun to make a character pass out or die.

How you roll the damage is up to you. I have rolled in groups of 5, rolled each individually, and rolled once and applied that damage to each hit. The last one is the most common these day.

 

[xkorpio]

I think the main concern of the OP is that with a simple skin weave (SP 12) and Militech gatling 1D6 (6 max damage) you can NEVER hurt a guy as the math shows:

SP 12 halved -> 6. Weapon max damage 6

The 1 point damage rule comes in effect (if im not wrong) once you have passed armor, so in the example any of the 40 rounds do anything, and the thing goes worse as you layer one simply armor jacket (SP 14) or kevlar vest (SP 10), with the layer armor system becomes SP 19 or 17 (+5 to higher layer)

As anyone here would say to you "House Rules!" is the medicine you are searching for, I think every CP 2020 player in the world has its own twitched system to make things work more or less.

If you want a quick rule you can try this: Take the number of D6, that is the damage the weapon does (minus BTM) if the bullet does not pass, take it half real and half stun, minimum 1 real damage (as the BTM minimum 1 damage rule). Example:

4D6+1 (12 mm) hits, it doesnt by pass armor, but you still get 4 points of damage, with BTM -2 you get 2 points of damage, so you check stun as if you got 2 boxes, but you only check 1 box of damage (half real, half stun)

For D10 weapons use double the number of dice, so that barret arasaka of 4D10 now does 8 points of damage even when not passing armor.

Hard armor has some advantage and negates stun damage, so if you cant pass a layer of hard armor the minimum damage is halved (but all real), the 4D6+1 weapon does 2 minimum damage, the 4D10 weapon does 4 damage.

 

[Axel9fr]

Thanx all for answers ^^

I had saw the rule of 1 minimal damage in my French Cyberpunk book, but it say that this 1 damage is true if the armor is overpass and BTM reduce the remaining damages. I have the first french edition with lot of bug. For example I don't have le rule for armor cumulation. In my book if you have 2 armor layer, for example AP12 and AP25 (skinweave + metal gear) it mean that you have AP37...
So, I think that I need to buy the last version of corebook, maybe th US version, because some time the translation work are not enouth good.

In fact, I like your ideas.
- One layer armor count (take the better if lot of armor) I like it. It can limit the way of tank and simplify the math for calculation.
- 1 stun damage by hit if the damage doesn't pass AP of armor I like too. Stun are easy to heal but if the player take lot of them it can be a danger. Maybe I can do a difference between hard and soft armors...


PS : special thanx to Suhiira for the french translate of you answer

 

[TheCybersmily]

I think the "always takes 1" is from "Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads!". I forget what page, towards the back with the rule supplements.

 

[Sardukhar]

The core book "Anders Swenson Memorial He Shrugs Off Damage Like An Old Overcoat" armour rule is that you may never take less than one damage if a combination of armour and BTM reduces it to zero. The rules also state that if the round doesn't do enough damage to penetrate the SP of the armour, no damage is done.

That's why you can't "ping down" a Dragoon with a .22.

 

[Suhiira]

What? Contradictory rules? Nawwwwwww ....

Sounds like just knowing about/using the correct armor layering system will solve most of his problems tho.

 

[Sardukhar]

They aren't contradictory, though. The A.Sweson rule is so that BTM can't zero out damage. Armour can zero out damage, that's fine. Remember,if you penetrate the SP, you aren't necessarily punching through the armour, just defeating it's protection. You can still bruise someone to death.

 

[blank_redge]

Yar; having a rib stoved in (or several ribs) from blunt trauma = no fun.

 

[Maelcom404]

Thanx all for answers ^^

I had saw the rule of 1 minimal damage in my French Cyberpunk book, but it say that this 1 damage is true if the armor is overpass and BTM reduce the remaining damages. I have the first french edition with lot of bug. For example I don't have le rule for armor cumulation. In my book if you have 2 armor layer, for example AP12 and AP25 (skinweave + metal gear) it mean that you have AP37...
So, I think that I need to buy the last version of corebook, maybe th US version, because some time the translation work are not enouth good.

In fact, I like your ideas.
- One layer armor count (take the better if lot of armor) I like it. It can limit the way of tank and simplify the math for calculation.
- 1 stun damage by hit if the damage doesn't pass AP of armor I like too. Stun are easy to heal but if the player take lot of them it can be a danger. Maybe I can do a difference between hard and soft armors...


PS : special thanx to Suhiira for the french translate of you answer

Just a quick response in french so it'll help you a lil I hope:

La traduction française de Cyberpunk 2020 est franchement aléatoire, j'ai eu du mal à comprendre au début également.
Enfaite, en 2020 les blindages sont très avancés, du coup, ils arrêtent presque tous les balles normales (genre 9mm, etc...)
C'est pour ça que tu galère à leurs faire des dommages, mais comme Suhir l'a rappeler, tu à les dégâts de "collision", même si l'armure n'est pas détruite ou quoi, tu peut leurs mettre 1point de dégât de "collision", du fait de l'impact de la balle ou autre, c'est comme ça que je fais dans mes parties.

Ensuite, les pistolets et armes de poing ne sont pas forcément inefficaces, tu as beaucoup de type de balle, c'est à tes PNJ ou à tes joueurs de les choisir avec sagesse.
Dans ma partie j'ai un Fixer qui utilise un revolver, et franchement il envoi le bois, même contre des blindages assez avancés.

Pour rentrer dans le lard de tes joueurs, tu peux équiper tes PNJ de balles blindées, même sur un glock banal elles sont plutôt efficaces.

Une balle blindée divise l'armure par deux, par exemple, ton armure fait 12, et ton glock 2D6 (ajoute aussi le fait qu'en tirant "coup par coup" tu peut choisir ou tu veux tirer ta balle, par exemple, la tête les dégâts comptent double, mais le score à atteindre au lancer de dé est plus haut (genre 25), etc..).

Tu lui tire dans le bras, tu touches, la balle fait mettons 8 de dégâts, l'armure touchée par la balle blindée = 6, donc tu fait 2pts de dégâts et pour chaque coup à travers l'armure, la protection perd 1point.
Tu retire dans le bras, l'armure est à 5 (mais à 11 en balles normales), tu fait mettons 9, il se prend alors 4points de dégâts, et si tu tires dans une zone protégée et que la balle ne passe pas, la victime se prend toujours au minimum 1points.

Aussi, ne pas oublier de faire les jets de sauvegarde en fonction de l'état des personnages.

Et là c'est qu'un simple pistolet, imagine un gros revolver (arme légale en plus) qui tape du 4D6 en balle blindées, si tes joueurs sont trop forts, laisse les faire de la merde, attend le bon moment et envois leurs de gros bras armés de balles blindées, histoire de les esquintés et si ça leurs suffit pas, envois leurs 2,3 AV4 de la police, avec des barrages routiers tout autour et une unité du Psychosquad en approche (avec de la grooooossse artillerie).
Il faut leurs montrer qu'ils sont pas les seuls "robocop" du coin.

Une fois, j'en ai liquider quelques uns simplement avec un gosse des rues, armé d'un revolver et bien planqué.

Pour les couches d'armures, j'ai simplement refait la fiche de personnage, pour pouvoir supperposer la cyber' et l'équipement.

Avant

Arrière

Ensuite, j'utilise les même regles que pour les armures banales, une fois que l'armure est niquée, celle de la peau tissée ou autre suit, ça rend juste les combats un poil plus long, mais avec des balles blindées/explosives/ à acide ou autre, c'est pas vraiment insurmontable, tu fais vite de gros dégats.
Puis t'es le GM, c'est à toi de les faire se chier dans leurs froc.

 

[Axel9fr]

Merci Maelcom pour ta réponse

 

[xkorpio]

Maelcom404, do you have this char sheet on English? It rocks

 

[Maelcom404]

Maelcom404, do you have this char sheet on English? It rocks

Unfortunately no :/
But it's pretty easy to do it yourself, I've done it on photoshop, using the basic sheet in the book, just added a few things over it.

 

[北境牌王大海]

The core book "Anders Swenson Memorial He Shrugs Off Damage Like An Old Overcoat" armour rule is that you may never take less than one damage if a combination of armour and BTM reduces it to zero. The rules also state that if the round doesn't do enough damage to penetrate the SP of the armour, no damage is done.

That's why you can't "ping down" a Dragoon with a .22.

Excuse me,could u plz explain a bit about the meaning of"Anders Swenson Memorial He Shrugs Off Damage Like An Old Overcoat rule". Is this a meme or sth?I tried to google and found nothing useful.
pslz pardon my poor english,i'm chinese

 

[Sardukhar]

Excuse me,could u plz explain a bit about the meaning of"Anders Swenson Memorial He Shrugs Off Damage Like An Old Overcoat rule". Is this a meme or sth?I tried to google and found nothing useful.
pslz pardon my poor english,i'm chinese

It's a joke.

Anders Swenson was a player when the game was being written, famous for being hard to kill.

 

[Ouroboros612]

Not familiar with CP setting damage and armor but I'm hoping it's similar to FO2 with some improvements. In FO2 your armor provided an armorclass (lowers enemy chance to hit) and had varying degrees of mitigation. For example one armor could be better in overall protection, while another armor - while lower in total defenses - might have better protection against one particular damage source. So one armor could have good defenses Vs all, another could have higher defenses to some, and weaker to some. Next: Ammo. In FO2 you had hollowpoints (good vs unarmored targets weak against armor) and AP rounds (lower damage, penetrates armor). However I think the FO2 way of balancing it was bad.

Non-AP damage should be weaker but still usable against high armor targets.
AP damage should be weaker but still usable against non-armored targets.

The problem was that the damage caps were too hard, I think for overall balance a softer cap is the better design choice. So that it's not a NO DAMAGE OR FULL DAMAGE. To use an example:

BAD DESIGN

Gun does no or insignificant damage w/o proper ammo

GOOD DESIGN

Gun does non-optimal, but still acceptable damage w/o proper ammo

I don't think ammo should be a case of "either you deal damage or you don't". However ammo should still matter. So all in all, no idea how the armor and ammo systems of CP works. But IMO it is bad design if you find an armor that covers all protections, or if proper ammo is mandatory. The game should be harder if you don't adapt, but not game-breaking. The player should be rewarded for preparing for an encounter with the proper protection and ammo, and be punished by it being harder but still doable if you don't.

I really hate the hand, rock, scissor approach as it removes player agency. Systems where "only X will work and Z and Y is useless here" is bad.

 

[Sild]

I really hate the hand, rock, scissor approach as it removes player agency. Systems where "only X will work and Z and Y is useless here" is bad.

Agreed. It might work better in games that don't place an accent on fast paced action but in action RPG's combat should be fluid, with proper queues as to what is working or isn't working (like the spark plus high-pitch deflect sound of sword on plate armor in KC: D). Swaping guns, ammo etc. i.e. adapting to combat encounter particularities should be doable on the fly and not require breaking the flow of combat. I'd also like some toggleable means of tactically analyzing your opponents and environment (i don't want to constantly see every little thing about every enemy i'm aiming at) since it's most likely going to feature gear/enchancements etc the player won't be familiar with unlike a plate armor. And probably most important for me, tie those options or "abilities" to in-game objects and gear, as opposed to a hover over enemies, object and thing magically make sense type approach.

 

[Suhiira]

I don't think ammo should be a case of "either you deal damage or you don't". However ammo should still matter. So all in all, no idea how the armor and ammo systems of CP works. But IMO it is bad design if you find an armor that covers all protections, or if proper ammo is mandatory. The game should be harder if you don't adapt, but not game-breaking. The player should be rewarded for preparing for an encounter with the proper protection and ammo, and be punished by it being harder but still doable if you don't.

I really hate the hand, rock, scissor approach as it removes player agency. Systems where "only X will work and Z and Y is useless here" is bad.

I can't speak for CP2077 (obviously).

But in CP2020 armor is classed as either "hard" or "soft" (as they in real life) and you can, to an extent, layer armor. When you layer you get full armor value for the strongest layer, half value for the second, and a quarter for the third (three layers max) BUT you add the encumbrance value of all layers. So yes, you can layer armor, and look and move like the Stay Puft marshmallow man (from Ghostbusters). Regardless of cumulative total armor rating, or how many layers you have you still take a minimum of one damage whenever you are hit, there's still a soft, bruisable, human body under the armor.

Now "hard" armor is a different matter. You can shoot at a real life tank all year with a rifle and never bother it because it has "hard" armor. You need to exceed it's armor rating to damage it. People rarely wear "hard" armor (a trauma plate is an example) because it's very heavy and generally non flexible..

Also like real life bullets are rated with for armor penetration and damage inflicted. Generally good pen equals lower damage and vice versa.

The only time 'Y' and 'Z' are useless is if it's obviously ineffective. Trying to use gas on someone wearing a gas mask or EMP on someone with no cyberware.

CP2020 is VERY much based on real world weapons, armor, etc. with minimal "game play" alterations.

How CP2077 will work ... we're not sure ... but based on the 2018 demo ... it looks much like most popular shooters.
More's the pity.

 

[Riven-Twain]

So yes, you can layer armor, and look and move like the Stay Puft marshmallow man (from Ghostbusters).

And we all know he wasn't exactly a cream puff, when it came to absorbing damage.

(Sorry, couldn't resist the opportunity for a bad joke.)