Armor and localized damage

[faverodefavero]

So,

One great way the game could justify bullet sponge enemies would be with armor and localized damage, with each part of the body having its own HP and armor values.

See, if the NPC is wearing hear armor it's easier to justofy it takimg many headshots without dying and for the late game one couls have many enemies that would take 3~4 shots to kill insteed of just one or two without breaking the immersion.

I don't like to die in one hit no matter the difficulty, and generally I believe enemies should take 3~4 hits to kill too (except with stealth and knife throwing in stealth which should always be 1 hit kills).

The original Sin is a very old cyberpunk themed game that does localized damage very well, for example.

No matter the armor value of the equipped gear, if there is armor the armor should always absorb at least 1hit in that respective boddy part and after that be "broken" for the rest of the combat duration. One could even have graphical effects of the armor breaking on NPCs, some armor would take more hits to break than others and only after that the player would be able to hit the actual NPC HP and vice versa.

The amor doesn't even have to look "heavy" and actually efective, it can be the same items we have now, only with this added feature.

I also do believe that an optional VATS (maybe a perk) inspired system would do this game very well, and bring it closer to an RPG.

All of the above would certainly make the combat way more pleasant and challenging in a good way, while adding immersion. So only good things and a great overall improvement.

PS: on that note, while I do love dismemberment and belive it should happen with arms and legs even more than it does now, the head dismemberment with the sword is currently very exagerated and imersion breaking, you cut from the top to bottom and the head goes off, no matter the angle you cut the head goes off... it's just very silly.

I wish they took much more care and love when designing this game's sword combat, at least make the beheading only happens when it makes sense for the actual sword movement. Many games did this in the past already (Dark Messiah, altough not a very good game, comes to mind, Bushido Blade as well).

Little details, you know, it's this minor little details that show love and care for the game and make ALL the difference in the world. Sometimes being the difference between an OK game and a great one.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

One great way the game could justify bullet sponge enemies would be with armor and localized damage, with each part of the body having its own HP and armor values.

I agree. It would be nice to have some tactical opportunities and systems for combat on top of the curren’t ”sprayn’ pray” thing that’s going on.

There is some sort of rudimentary system there already as you can target different bodyparts with smarts guns and you can apparently disable enemies arms by shooting at them...

But there’s never any reason to do that, nor a chance to notice if you did, because combat is so hectic and messy and all you really ever want to do is score as many headshots as possible to put the dude down as fast as possible.

Ask me, the whole combat system needs a thorough overhaul.

 

[faverodefavero]

I agree. It would be nice to have some tactical opportunities and systems for combat on top of the curren’t ”sprayn’ pray” thing that’s going on.

There is some sort of rudimentary system there already as you can target different bodyparts with smarts guns and you can apparently disable enemies arms by shooting at them...

But there’s never any reason to do that, nor a chance to notice if you did, because combat is so hectic and messy and all you really ever want to do is score as many headshots as possible to put the dude down as fast as possible.

Ask me, the whole combat system needs a thorough overhaul.

Indeed. I belive above suggestions are easy enough to implement would already improve the combat experience a lot.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Indeed. I belive above suggestions are easy enough to implement would already improve the combat experience a lot.

You have some good points there.

Overall the combat should be (much) slower and more tactical, and systems- rather than relfex-driven.

It kinda pains me to admit that a Fallout: New Vegas style VATS system would do wonders here, given that I didn’t really like the ”win-button” / ”players personal cheat over the enemies” nature of it.

 

[alebersam]

I think the problem is the mix, take one feature apart and it work, take other and it work, take all of them at the same time... And, surprise! It's a mess.

This game take many features at the same time, first the classic rpg of level of character and enemies, add in top of that level of weapons (the most horrendous thing ever think) and perks investment.
This is the firts barrier "rpg features" (well, not a decent rpg would ever think about give level to a weapon, but let's accept it).
Then you go into the second barrier, fps features, that directly clash against the previous one, as they need to by base on player skill, but of course player skill doesn't matter if you are under leveled or your weapon is under leveled.
Then add the last, boss fights, they need to make the boss bullet sponges to they have at least any relevance in the game... But they also mean that boss are weaker than normal enemies that can one shoot you by a head shoot, because they have weapons that don't do any relevant damage compare to normal enemies.

Last, as a total personal opinion, the best game in I play that mix shooter options and rpg options is ME:Andromeda. A total underrated game as I think and deliver the best mix of shooter and rpg combat

 

[faverodefavero]

You have some good points there.

Overall the combat should be (much) slower and more tactical, and systems- rather than relfex-driven.

It kinda pains me to admit that a Fallout: New Vegas style VATS system would do wonders here, given that I didn’t really like the ”win-button” / ”players personal cheat over the enemies” nature of it.

Yes, I belive both the player and the same level common enemy NPCs should always take something like three to five hits, but this shouls be justified with armor in my opinion. One could incapacitate the enemy atacking arms or making it slower attacking legs, though.

I don't think one hit deaths, even at the highest difficulty go well with this game at all, it makes the game hard for the wrong reasons. But neither is it fun to just one shot every enemy too.

Difficulty should increase damage taken slightly while still avoiding one hit deaths, but mostly it should increase the AI capabilities and add a few more enemies to the encounters.

Post automatically merged: Jan 5, 2021

I think the problem is the mix, take one feature apart and it work, take other and it work, take all of them at the same time... And, surprise! It's a mess.

This game take many features at the same time, first the classic rpg of level of character and enemies, add in top of that level of weapons (the most horrendous thing ever think) and perks investment.
This is the firts barrier "rpg features" (well, not a decent rpg would ever think about give level to a weapon, but let's accept it).
Then you go into the second barrier, fps features, that directly clash against the previous one, as they need to by base on player skill, but of course player skill doesn't matter if you are under leveled or your weapon is under leveled.
Then add the last, boss fights, they need to make the boss bullet sponges to they have at least any relevance in the game... But they also mean that boss are weaker than normal enemies that can one shoot you by a head shoot, because they have weapons that don't do any relevant damage compare to normal enemies.

Last, as a total personal opinion, the best game in I play that mix shooter options and rpg options is ME:Andromeda. A total underrated game as I think and deliver the best mix of shooter and rpg combat

Yup, but some minor changes could greatly improve the combat experience.

Mass Effect series in general is probably the best RPG with guns experience ever made to this day. And people dislike Andromeda for many reasons but not the combat, it just feels unnecessary and redundant in the series as well as not being finished and all we already now, so much like CP2077 it leaves the taste of a moneygrab product which no one likes. That's how I see it, but again: I love the Gun RPG combat in any Mass Effect game.

 

[alebersam]

Difficulty should increase damage taken slightly while still avoiding one hit deaths, but mostly it should increase the AI capabilities and add a few more enemies to the encounters.

You make a point at this, one at I agree, but one that easy to say than done.
Mostly because devolopers, reasons, if you really make a "smart ai" you want to show it and it will show under all difficulties
Then, the second option, more enemies with directly confront with performance. No one like to said that for play your game at high difficulties you need a better hardware, and this is on Pc. Some games that totally takes consoles to the limit simply can't run on high difficulties them.
In the end this close devs in only the "more damage /more hp" cicle for level. It's not hard to see why, you can take a look a nexus mods for skyrim or fallout. Every mod that increase difficult in a more interest way than damage or hp(better ai, more enemies, any combination...)comes with the modder disclaimer that this mod will need more resources of your computer

 

[Lexandro_Albion]

The thing is the game actually features some nice tactical options, but the enemies are too weak to really put it in to practice as an option.

You can shoot them in the arm, stopping them shooting.
You can shoot them in the arm, making them drop a grenade they are about to throw
You can "trick shoot" a grenade in mid-air, or when held in the hand and the icon appears.
You can set traps to trip enemies, which can kill them in hilarious fashion
You can shoot them in the leg to trip them, making them stumble and fall over terrain
You can stun them and they back-step off buildings.

 

[faverodefavero]

You make a point at this, one at I agree, but one that easy to say than done.
Mostly because devolopers, reasons, if you really make a "smart ai" you want to show it and it will show under all difficulties
Then, the second option, more enemies with directly confront with performance. No one like to said that for play your game at high difficulties you need a better hardware, and this is on Pc. Some games that totally takes consoles to the limit simply can't run on high difficulties them.
In the end this close devs in only the "more damage /more hp" cicle for level. It's not hard to see why, you can take a look a nexus mods for skyrim or fallout. Every mod that increase difficult in a more interest way than damage or hp(better ai, more enemies, any combination...)comes with the modder disclaimer that this mod will need more resources of your computer

I don't know, Fear has amazing AI to this day and doesn't require that much processing power. I belive it can be done with minor performance impacts, but it's probably hard.

Post automatically merged: Jan 5, 2021

The thing is the game actually features some nice tactical options, but the enemies are too weak to really put it in to practice as an option.

You can shoot them in the arm, stopping them shooting.
You can shoot them in the arm, making them drop a grenade they are about to throw
You can "trick shoot" a grenade in mid-air, or when held in the hand and the icon appears.
You can set traps to trip enemies, which can kill them in hilarious fashion
You can shoot them in the leg to trip them, making them stumble and fall over terrain
You can stun them and they back-step off buildings.

Game should teach you all that and the combat should be slower paced and more tactical so one can and has to actually use said features. And for that to work neither enemies nor the player should ever die in one hit no matter the difficulty.