Asking The Dev - Would you be OK if the World Masters final is won due to Bribery?

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rrc

Forum veteran
@SlamaTwoFlags, This is a direct question to you and the entire post is for you. I hope you read this. How would you feel if the World Masters is won due to a lucky roll of Bribery? The highest form of Gwent competition with hundreds of thousands of dollars at stake is determined by whether the player manage to roll and get the exact card he needs and wins (or in the rarest case getting all three bronzes and losing the game, deservedly so)? I don't know about you, but if I were the game director, I would feel terrible and ashamed if such a pure luck based RNG card determines who wins the World Masters of Gwent.

Gwent has many meme RNG cards; Gascon (the self boosting guy), Wheel of Fortune, Uma, Agura True Form, Gascon (the bronze card creation guy who can roll Bomb Heaver and eventually contribute to win) and the Rune Stones. None of this cards is played in Pro Rank because they are just fun meme cards or they have hard ceiling (like Rune Stones, which are played rarely). But none of these cards are tournament worthy. But there is not a single NG deck without Bribery and this is the only pure RNG card which is there is in all NG decks in tournaments.

Bribery has unlimited possibilities and even with all the probability people bring up in the forum, very very rarely only it fails - it even has synergy with Tactic and Assimilate. When it works, it wins the game single handedly. Losing to a game because the opponent managed to roll the exact card (s)he needed by luck/RNG is THE WORST ever feeling in Gwent. Imagine that happening in the World Master finals; the first and the only million dollar Gwent tournament. I know you have your reasons to keep Bribery as it is and I believe it is mostly due to statistics from the data collected (and I sincerely SINCERELY hope that 'it is one of NG's win condition' is not a reason). Please don't see only statistics. Please think logically and emotionally too.

I don't want to suggest any fix. At the very least, you can ban Bribery for the tournament and let only the commoners suffer due to this RNG card. No matter what you do, we love you Jason. I have HUGE respect on you. Your passion to the game is contagious. But, just imagine this: You are sleeping and dreaming of the World Master finals against Kolemon and/or Tailbot (or any other fantastic players) and after 2-2, the last game, the final game which determines who is going to win is happening. And in R3, one of the player has clearly outsmarted and outplayed the other and is going to win. The other player has Bribery in hand and if he rolls one specific card he wins otherwise, there is no way he could win. Now, this player rolls Bribery and gets this card which wins him the game/tournament and the player who played better till now bangs his hand on the table and yells "F************K!" since he lost to RNG.

Now, if this is your dream, would you scream and wake up and catch your breath determined to stop this happening or would you smile lightly, turn back, adjust your blanket and continue your sleep peacefully? Who are you?
 

4RM3D

Ex-moderator
I understand what you are saying and I agree that Bribery is an issue, but there are still two flaws to your reasoning. The most important flaw is that the RNG is inherent in most card games and that it takes shapes far worse than Bribery. The most common one are the card draws, especially in Magic where land screw can single-handedly lose you the game without any hope of winning. As for Gwent, in the final round you don't draw your finisher, well, too bad. Another example are random damage and destroy effects, where Hearthstone went overboard. In Gwent, I could imagine a situation where you need to destroy a threat on the row (e.g. Defender) and only have a random damage card (e.g. Shupe: Mage). So, you put too much weight on Bribery as a the single issue of RNG.

The second flaw is the reasoning with the role RNG should take. When you make RNG cards meme level, that's no fun. Then again, if you make them competitive, that's going to be an issue too. The solution is a mechanic that can reduce RNG based factors you can control. A good example is Double Cross, where you decide when to play it to reduce the RNG, but, at the same time, the opponent can also try to minimize the value of your Double Cross. There is room for RNG in competitive play, as long as it's not a single point of failure when you don't high roll your win-con (and vice verse).
 
"Gwent can do pathetic things because other games do pathetic things.
Gwent can go of a card/strategy game where 1 point misplay can make you lose to a full RNG fiesta like Hearthstone...because Hearthstone exist".

That reasoning does not make sense and conveniently ignores the fact that Gwent does not have a history of support for the RNG as now with that card(and some of the lastest set), the closest thing was the time of Shupe and they do not really compare.

Not getting mana in MTG, taking the worst possible spell by generating it random in HS, those things are inherent in their respective games.
Gwent was more about count resources and how/when spend them than "YOLO Stefan - Brivery". :beer:
 
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It happened just a few minutes ago. Opponent leader ability seize a unit with 6 or less power. Hits my defender down to 5, seizes it, also plays Damien in the same round. Thats all right, i think. It happens. He uses Damien and seizes another unit with six power, still kind of acceptable. But after that... 😂😂 He plays Bribery near the end and he plays it twice, he gets another Damien, and... again a Damien. So i forfeited LOL

It was funny btw, but sure i wouldn't like to lose millions like that 😂
 

rrc

Forum veteran
I understand what you are saying and I agree that Bribery is an issue, but there are still two flaws to your reasoning. The most important flaw is that the RNG is inherent in most card games and that it takes shapes far worse than Bribery. The most common one are the card draws, especially in Magic where land screw can single-handedly lose you the game without any hope of winning. As for Gwent, in the final round you don't draw your finisher, well, too bad. Another example are random damage and destroy effects, where Hearthstone went overboard. In Gwent, I could imagine a situation where you need to destroy a threat on the row (e.g. Defender) and only have a random damage card (e.g. Shupe: Mage). So, you put too much weight on Bribery as a the single issue of RNG.

The second flaw is the reasoning with the role RNG should take. When you make RNG cards meme level, that's no fun. Then again, if you make them competitive, that's going to be an issue too. The solution is a mechanic that can reduce RNG based factors you can control. A good example is Double Cross, where you decide when to play it to reduce the RNG, but, at the same time, the opponent can also try to minimize the value of your Double Cross. There is room for RNG in competitive play, as long as it's not a single point of failure when you don't high roll your win-con (and vice verse).
Dear @4RM3D I know and understand that RNG is inherent in all card games and most importantly the draw RNG. Gwent has a lot of tutor cards and cards like Matta which just makes sure that you get your best card. Every faction has a lot of tutors and thinning tool. Due to the best of three, even if you didn't draw your important card in R1, you can mitigate to the best if the deck was built for consistency (which will be in all the highest form of games). While other RNG effects are known or minimal, Bribery is not at all an acceptable RNG. It can win the game due to pure RNG and this card is too cheap and too consistent that this is the staple in all NG decks. Why do you think Gascon or Uma is not played much? Either their a limit to how much value it can get or it is very costly that even getting a good card in the roll is not too advantageous.

Your last statement is exactly why I want Bribery to be banned in World Masters "There is room for RNG in competitive play, as long as it's not a single point of failure when you don't high roll your win-con (and vice verse)". Rolling the exact required card from Bribery can win you the game (and not rolling a good card, even though it is very rare, can lose you the game). If World Masters is won due to a lucky roll from Bribery, it would be the worst and the lowest for Gwent competitive scene. Your example of Shupe destroying a random enemy, no pro player will use that as a win condition in tournaments. They will use it when they are sure it will not backfire (like charming when you have any other unit, or random destroy when there are lot of opponent cards, etc.). But they will roll Bribery without any issues.

It happened just a few minutes ago. Opponent leader ability seize a unit with 6 or less power. Hits my defender down to 5, seizes it, also plays Damien in the same round. Thats all right, i think. It happens. He uses Damien and seizes another unit with six power, still kind of acceptable. But after that... 😂😂 He plays Bribery near the end and he plays it twice, he gets another Damien, and... again a Damien. So i forfeited LOL

It was funny btw, but sure i wouldn't like to lose millions like that 😂
Please please lets not make this a "I hate NG" thread. There are plenty of threads for that. This one is mainly for Bribery in World Masters tournament. There are threads which discusses Bribery and gives various fixes for that too. This thread is for Jason Slama :)
 
As 4RM3D indicated above, Bribery is a symptom of a larger issue with too much RNG, high variance and gambling mechanics. In a dev stream some time ago, Jason indicated he likes big point swings. Cards and mechanics that can do that without setup, based on RNG of match-ups and card draws or point slam (Poison, Destroy, Harmony, Bribery and more) are not fun, but are an insult to intelligent players who want a real strategic game (as advertised) instead of no-brain point swings/slams with the same few decks/cards over and over. That's why many of those players have left.
When you make RNG cards meme level, that's no fun.
Gwent is advertised as a game of skill and strategy. RNG is the opposite of strategy. Many players will have fun when they can play strategically and use their brain power to win. They will not have fun when winning or losing based on RNG. Therefore the solution is to significantly reduce RNG in the whole game. High RNG cards must be meme level, it's that simple. The maximum acceptable type of RNG is the one like Trebuchet hitting a random enemy. I think this would bring (back) a lot of players.
 

Payus

Forum regular
I'd make bribery 11 provisions, still a tactic. And it should be create a random gold card from your oponent's starting deck, without 3 choices, just 1 card to choose from.
 
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