Night City source book. I am fairly sure there is something in home of the brave too.
Mind giving page numbers?
Edit: NM I found it... crazy the things you overlook or just ignore...
I knew it sounded familiar, but because that one tiny paragraph, and one sentence mentionis the one and only mention of it in any of the source material, at all, I guess I just kind of just ignored it.
It also isn't reflected in the CP 2020 map of north amica, which shows an intact 101 stretching from Santa Rosa al the way down to below LA where it hooks up with 8...
Which doesn't really surprise me, contradictions like that often get written out, and the idea that the major roadway would remain unrepaired for 10 years (let alone 57 for 2077) is a bit of a stretch.... since Norcal is known for keeping its infrastructure up.
My thoguhts on fast travel are GTA4 and RDR did it the best... you get in a cab, and you can either choose to enjoy the ride, getting out anywhere along the way, or at anytime you can choose to ft, and be transported to your destination. It, feels like it's instantaneous, but time passes, you just skip the bullshit of getting to your location. You could expand this to include the NCRT maglev system, as well as busses.
Highways may be one of the places where you can actually cut loose full out on the road, it would be a shame if they were relegated to fast travel
Highways may be one of the places where you can actually cut loose full out on the road, it would be a shame if they were relegated to fast travel
Tedium isn't just about Game scale and how to get around the map. Backtracking, Fetch quests, and bad escort AI can lead to Long chunks of game where nothing happens, grinding or constant mission failure. So that's a thing..... The AI is more style/programming i know but it could be a major nail in the flow of the game.
Also The main issue I have with open world games that there is no sense of urgency, or that i have any real impact on the world. If I don't want to go talk to some quest giver, they will just wait for me while I wreck the town. That cop will still give me the mission even after I just tore through half the department because I found a rocket launcher. Let the world move without me. If you tell me my Fixer is about to go walk into a trap and get killed in 3 days, Don't just sit there waiting for me. If I do not get there then he gets into a bad situation and dies. But the world goes on. You have to find another Fixer.
I think that would add ALOT to the flow of the game so you always have something to do. If done properly you wont care that your driving across the city again for the 5th time this hour, only that your girlfriend is the hands of the Boomergang you pissed off on your last mission into the combat zone
Also The main issue I have with open world games that there is no sense of urgency, or that i have any real impact on the world. If I don't want to go talk to some quest giver, they will just wait for me while I wreck the town. That cop will still give me the mission even after I just tore through half the department because I found a rocket launcher. Let the world move without me. If you tell me my Fixer is about to go walk into a trap and get killed in 3 days, Don't just sit there waiting for me. If I do not get there then he gets into a bad situation and dies. But the world goes on. You have to find another Fixer.
I think that would add ALOT to the flow of the game so you always have something to do. If done properly you wont care that your driving across the city again for the 5th time this hour, only that your girlfriend is the hands of the Boomergang you pissed off on your last mission into the combat zone
People complained about the timer on the water quest in Fallout 1 - I loved it.
A sense of purpose, of drive, of consequences is really a part of a commanding story. I like SKyrim, despite it's many flaws, but I have rarely if ever felt driven to do anything. Not as bad as Just Cuz 2, mind you, but that sense of you-aren't-really-supposed-to-do-anything in open world games is a real tripwire for boredom.
We covered this in the consequences thread, I think, but it's also a negative motivator: if you don't give PCs something they gotta gotta do, the chance they'll fell it doesn't matter if they do it or don't, goes up. And that leads to apathy.
A sense of purpose, of drive, of consequences is really a part of a commanding story. I like SKyrim, despite it's many flaws, but I have rarely if ever felt driven to do anything. Not as bad as Just Cuz 2, mind you, but that sense of you-aren't-really-supposed-to-do-anything in open world games is a real tripwire for boredom.
We covered this in the consequences thread, I think, but it's also a negative motivator: if you don't give PCs something they gotta gotta do, the chance they'll fell it doesn't matter if they do it or don't, goes up. And that leads to apathy.
I would love to add this thread to the forum guide... but it really doesn;t cover anything specific... perhaps it should be broken up into a few seperate threads? Fast Travbel, mission urgency and implication? Mission Design?
I dunno, I mean I can add it as is, just not sure where it should go...
I dunno, I mean I can add it as is, just not sure where it should go...
It belongs under mission design. And it is one of the most important topics of our times.
*presidential voice*
*presidential voice*
Fast travel system where it is not a fast travel at all is a good idea. What I mean is as it was suggested, you select a mode of transportation and distanation and at that point the time speeds up, Like you'd do in Silent Hunter or ArmA, time X8 or whatever. You are still doing the same in game action that takes same in game time but outside the game it doesn't waste your personal time. Combine that with timed quests/event system somewhat similar to Dead Rising and you've got something very interesting going.
Well good exploration game is all about "poking" the player and rewarding his/her curiosity.
As mentioned, game should avoid using long distance quest travels...landmarks should be used for player orientation. It's kind of baffling how AAA games spend so much $ on scenery and then fail to use it ( remember an article on how one person from Ubisoft spent more than Two years recreating Notre Dame in Unity...and then those geniuses design the game so you spend most time looking at minimap and Hud markers).
World should also have more dynamic events that player can take place in.
Game should also reward player for discovering small secrets in the environment...from lore/misteries about the world, clues(bread crumbs) to potential unique quests through mini detective work, to concealed, rewarding items( well placed, within context). This handcrafted approach is critical to keep player attention in moment to moment gameplay, so you completely forget about that quest you were travelling to, as the world just "pulls you in".
Tempt the player by letting him discover an entry to a certain location/or a quest and then give him clues on how to obtain entry to it ( no quest markers bs)...make him work for it. This builds a strong sense of anticipation, you feel like an actual explorer, instead of turning it into busywork of clearing your map of ? icons.
All this should flow naturally...no ta-dam! audio sounds, journal entries or letters on the screen: those things only "dilute" the experience.
I'm really hoping this time around they have some people working full time on this...use this open world for gameplay, don't reduce it to nothing more than pretty scenery.
Did anyone play latest Zelda, btw? I've heard good things about it's exploration mechanics.
As mentioned, game should avoid using long distance quest travels...landmarks should be used for player orientation. It's kind of baffling how AAA games spend so much $ on scenery and then fail to use it ( remember an article on how one person from Ubisoft spent more than Two years recreating Notre Dame in Unity...and then those geniuses design the game so you spend most time looking at minimap and Hud markers).
World should also have more dynamic events that player can take place in.
Game should also reward player for discovering small secrets in the environment...from lore/misteries about the world, clues(bread crumbs) to potential unique quests through mini detective work, to concealed, rewarding items( well placed, within context). This handcrafted approach is critical to keep player attention in moment to moment gameplay, so you completely forget about that quest you were travelling to, as the world just "pulls you in".
Tempt the player by letting him discover an entry to a certain location/or a quest and then give him clues on how to obtain entry to it ( no quest markers bs)...make him work for it. This builds a strong sense of anticipation, you feel like an actual explorer, instead of turning it into busywork of clearing your map of ? icons.
All this should flow naturally...no ta-dam! audio sounds, journal entries or letters on the screen: those things only "dilute" the experience.
I'm really hoping this time around they have some people working full time on this...use this open world for gameplay, don't reduce it to nothing more than pretty scenery.
Did anyone play latest Zelda, btw? I've heard good things about it's exploration mechanics.
Well ... Night City does have the NCART (subway) and there's always taxis (assuming we don't get a vehicle of our own ... which has it's own issues ... i.e. a decent driving simulator).
Personally I've never had a problem with Fast Travel as an OPTIONAL way to get around. It's also useful from a technical perspective, since you have to load the area you're travelling to anyway. From that perspective alone it's a practical technical solution, in spite of immersion issues.
Long distance travel quests aren't as much of an issue if you have a "Quest Item" inventory and they don't have mass. When you have stuff taking up inventory space and loading you down it's no longer a "when you get around to it" but a "must do ASAP" situation.
As to needing to travel across the same map area a zillion times ... it really depends. If nothing changes, then yes it's a pain-in-the-ass-chore. But if there was something new/different each time it wouldn't seem like one. You'd have something to look forward to.
Personally I've never had a problem with Fast Travel as an OPTIONAL way to get around. It's also useful from a technical perspective, since you have to load the area you're travelling to anyway. From that perspective alone it's a practical technical solution, in spite of immersion issues.
Long distance travel quests aren't as much of an issue if you have a "Quest Item" inventory and they don't have mass. When you have stuff taking up inventory space and loading you down it's no longer a "when you get around to it" but a "must do ASAP" situation.
As to needing to travel across the same map area a zillion times ... it really depends. If nothing changes, then yes it's a pain-in-the-ass-chore. But if there was something new/different each time it wouldn't seem like one. You'd have something to look forward to.
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i have no trouble at all with fast traveling. it is somewhat an immersion breaker, but ilet my imagination fill the gaps. the idea of a bus brawl was cool, and can be implamented further WITH fast traveling. imagine geting a payjob on street x then going to street y to do the jobsyaing "be back in a jiffy" then a custscene plays
BOOM! 9 car pileup.
BOOM! some eco terrorist blows up a train
BOOM! some rocker boy decide to have a huge show- right in the middle of the highway in top rush houers.
that could be nice. there could be sveral of those, based on the transportation choosing (train, cab, a flying cab, airplain, helicopter, etc')
BOOM! 9 car pileup.
BOOM! some eco terrorist blows up a train
BOOM! some rocker boy decide to have a huge show- right in the middle of the highway in top rush houers.
that could be nice. there could be sveral of those, based on the transportation choosing (train, cab, a flying cab, airplain, helicopter, etc')
It would be neat if there were several "fast travel" options all of which could double as interactive scenic tours. Cabs, subways, buses, trams (setting specific, of course)... And unless the player wishes to "take a nap" and just zap to the target location the player might interact with fellow passengers or cab driver for just chitchat or sometimes possibly something relevant like information or even little missions; and to go further possibly even random encounters during the ride (fight between two passengers and the cops intervene, someone might pick a fight with the player, you see some kind of event from the window that makes you want to jump off and participate/investigate. Little interactions unique to the method of traveling that encourages their use -- and that, because I'd want this game not be centered around cruising around the city with what ever vehicle, that it isn't mandatory to be a "driver" in the game. I'd want that to be the privilege of those characters that have the relevant skills and are investing in them for that specific purpose (and at the cost of somet other skill -- the skill for driving determining the maximum speed before the steering starts to wobble and other controls get cumulatively harder as well, and additionally height for flying should that be in the game). It probably wouldn't be very fun or long experience to be a getaway driver with a skill of 0-3 and with some serious sportster that goes from 0 to 60 in a few seconds, and it shouldn't be either, you are the wrong person to drive that car.
But anyway, optably interactive and rewarding traveling methods and being a driver oneself requiring effort and (character)skill. That's the point.
But anyway, optably interactive and rewarding traveling methods and being a driver oneself requiring effort and (character)skill. That's the point.
I agree that fast travel feels like cheating. I would be fine with a taxi like mechanic where you actually have a cost associated with getting where you want to go fast. I also would like them to minimize the travel all over the city style quests. A couple would be okay. Just not a lot.
Psuedo related - I'm also not a huge fan of minimaps. I think a hud ought to be a piece of cyberwear that can be installed at a humanity cost.
Psuedo related - I'm also not a huge fan of minimaps. I think a hud ought to be a piece of cyberwear that can be installed at a humanity cost.
Going through Saints Row II now, the main plot/characters are endearing and have you hooked, but from open world/exploration it does everything wrong..like it's designed by people who thoroughly hate exploration. Or simply have no clue what it is about.
From Unity:
Wasted effort of artists/world designers because of this retarded "activities/checklist" design (hoping after Zelda, the press( and the players) finally hammer down on this).
Take a look at your own map, history, look at architecture, characters that you have in location and ask yourself how do we connect them and leave for player to discover. In 2077 exploration should be all about strong world building...Night City a place with hundreds of stories to tell, at least half of them only discovered throughout the world, with no "gamey" guidance and outside of existing questlines.
Puzzle element that relies on combined recognition should also play a role here. Simple example: delirious homeless person give a few creds to, you can hear chanting some mad riddle, every now and then. Most ignore it, but you decide to pay attention and end up discovering hidden location not far that fits the description, a rare weapon mod cache and some insight about this person's history.
Or a hidden object in environment ( like say, finding a wallet) that hints to another location, ( you notice a bar card to a place person frequently visits), then to another and so on.
Each of Night City's streets/locations could be filled with these kind of exploration "quests/chains" designed around object discovery, audio/visual cues, environment recognition, puzzle solving and worldbuilding( between map and history, characters and locations), leading the player to more "intuitively" learn about the layout of the place.
At the end of the day, player would realize you've been "tricked" by the developers. You now know the place inside out and no longer need any kind of mini-map for travelling.
From Unity:
Wasted effort of artists/world designers because of this retarded "activities/checklist" design (hoping after Zelda, the press( and the players) finally hammer down on this).
Take a look at your own map, history, look at architecture, characters that you have in location and ask yourself how do we connect them and leave for player to discover. In 2077 exploration should be all about strong world building...Night City a place with hundreds of stories to tell, at least half of them only discovered throughout the world, with no "gamey" guidance and outside of existing questlines.
Puzzle element that relies on combined recognition should also play a role here. Simple example: delirious homeless person give a few creds to, you can hear chanting some mad riddle, every now and then. Most ignore it, but you decide to pay attention and end up discovering hidden location not far that fits the description, a rare weapon mod cache and some insight about this person's history.
Or a hidden object in environment ( like say, finding a wallet) that hints to another location, ( you notice a bar card to a place person frequently visits), then to another and so on.
Each of Night City's streets/locations could be filled with these kind of exploration "quests/chains" designed around object discovery, audio/visual cues, environment recognition, puzzle solving and worldbuilding( between map and history, characters and locations), leading the player to more "intuitively" learn about the layout of the place.
At the end of the day, player would realize you've been "tricked" by the developers. You now know the place inside out and no longer need any kind of mini-map for travelling.
Just like nearly all games of that type, GTA's included. It's extremely hard to find the balance between the world feeling empty and feeling crowded where meaningless and everything that suppsed to matter (like the main storyline) loses its importance and drowns under a mountain second hand filler fluff and the player is left thinking "where the fuck am I supposed to be going with all this" (the syndrome that plagues Bethesda's games -- so much stuff, nothing matters or feels special anymore).Zagor-Te-Nay;n8333230 said:
That's why I still hope CDPR's sandbox for CP2077 will not be the kind we see in Saint's Row, Watchdogs, GTA, nor Skyrim or Fallout 4 or Dying Light. But rather similiar to how it is handled in Risen 3 (a mediocre game at best, no argument there) with sailing between the island hubs.