Baba Yaga, and other myths and legends

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I'll remember about that invitation. And if you can bring me to a place where they serve Cant Dog, I'm all yours. :)

Aha an Ale drinker... sure there are many fine establishments specialising in serving up a range of those, and the occasional festival of real ale, can't promise you that one though dawg ;)

Wait... thanks to the wonder of technology, I see it's been available as cans at least since July this year, which is great, because then we can stock up and frequent the less fine establishments, which tend to be more fun with the potential of transforming into a Shibeen around midnight, and I can drink the Genius Guinness ;)

Consider accommodation sorted too, in fact I've got 3-5 spare rooms, so more the merrier !

Pathetic attempt at making this post on topic: Your memory serves you well concerning HBHG, fascinating theory, while obfuscated by the Priory etc, the central idea that a 30 year old Rabbi expected to be a new temporal King would need to be married or else considered a weirdo is quite solid in my opinion, and difficult to dismiss.

My memory now tells me it was one of the later 2 books - forget their names atm - that mentioned the Cauldron, as they discussed the Templars and other relevant theories. As a general rule I "believe half of what I see and none of what I hear", as belief affects perception... but recognise that knowledge is required to broaden those perceptions, so the more we accumulate the better. I'm also firmly of the belief that discussion & external exploration of ideas furthers them while keeping them internal is stagnant & of use to no one. Therefore total freedom of chat is beneficial to everyone involved.

And our pubs are wonderfully noisy places, I assure you ;)
 
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"Muma Mumelor, Muma Padurilor, Sa te aud din asta noapte Cu vacile zbierând, Cu porcii grohaind, Cu câinii latrând, Cu lupii urlând ..."
(Trans=Mother of Mothers,Mother of the Forest,Let me hear you from this night on,Yelling with the cows,Squealing with the pigs,Barking with the dogs,Howling with the wolves...)

Thanks for this mate, its really excellent. Even in an unfamiliar language I swear I can detect a rhythmic chant to those words, its not at all hard to imagine them having power.

...not say more then three words because if the Baba would hear the forth she would take their voices.

Must admit I've been wondering what the Harpys are doing with Johnnys voice in the first place. Can they even use bottles? I thought it was all crystals & dreams for those screeching viragos. :detective:

Remarkable amount of threes in that description of Baba Cloanța, thats one of the recurring shared Indo-European themes because theres a lot of that in ours & in others too, plus they've been shown to be a pre-Christian influence, I don't think anyones ever managed to explain why precisely. Similarly the character of the Witch resembles our fairies in its fickle / ritual / ambivalent nature rather than simply monstrous and to be feared.

And theres the striking difference, you guys have some great monsters, we just have big beasties and other people (some with very nifty shape-changing magics among other tricks). Take the only real Werewolf tale from Ireland, that appears to have at its heart the same origin as the other Werewolf legends, and either evolved quite differently, or maybe held onto a memory the others forgot in the telling - that the myth wasn't always about an outside fear, that monsters aren'tt only outside the door, and you should look askance at everything twice in case its the fairies ;)

"The Irish Werewolf is different from the Teutonic or European werewolf, as it is really not a "monster" at all. Unlike its continental cousins, this shapeshifter is the guardian and protector of children, wounded men and lost persons. According to some ancient sources, the Irish werewolves were even recruited by kings in time of war. Known in their native land as the faoladh or conroicht, their predatory behaviour is typical of the common wolf, not beneath the occasional nocturnal raid on local sheep or cattle herds. If attacked or surprised while in wolf form, they usually simply run off because this causes them to shift back into their more vulnerable human form. However, after changing back into a man or woman, evidence of their lupine adventure remains on their bodies. If wounded, the injury remains. If they kill a sheep or cow, the telltale bloodstains stay on their faces and hands.

"The most famous of the mythical Irish werewolves are the people of Ossory (modern day Kilkenny) whose legends live on even today. Among other lingering tales, the Ossory folk were documented by none other than Giraldus Cambrensis who, in the year 1185 transcribed what was no doubt a much older, oral folktale. According to Giraldus, the Ossory werewolves worked in pairs, male and female. A chosen couple lived as wolves for seven years before returning to human form to be replaced by a matched set of two others. During their time as wolves, they fed from the herds but this was taken as their due for watching over wandering children, healing the wounded, and guiding lost strangers to safety.

"Despite the fact that this is a pre-Christian folk belief, the Irish werewolves eventually gained a reputation for being under a curse from either St Natalis (St Nailè) or, naturally, St Patrick as punishment for some vague transgression committed long ago. If you read Giraldus' account of these creatures, it is easy to separate what may be the original tale from his preachy commentary at the end."

Curses though are very common in our tales, and geis are essentially conditionally placed pre-emptive curses, if you see what I mean, they take effect immediately honour is broken and are usually disastrous. Only monsters I can really think of are Sea Monsters, and they are obviously never well described, even Banshees don't actually attack or kill, they simply keen forewarning the death of the person in question.
 
Wow, I've been gone for about 2 weeks and this keeps coming back even more awesome. Way too much stuff to comment on, and some of them off topic, but thanks a lot to all the posters. You guys rock! I love it when something ( whether it's a book, game, or movie ) is so "imbued" with lore, myths and legends, so that we can't help ourselves but start conversations that connect civilisations and the past to the present. On other off topic news since I saw celtic interest ( sorry!! ) , you might be interested in the Slaine comic book series. Celtic myths, gods and artefacts, beautifully interconnected with a Riastrad - driven barbarian and lots of bloody humor.

On other on topic news ( see?? I'm trying! ) I have a proposition. Since there is interest, why don't we make this an official ( as much as it can be ) Lore thread, where we can discuss both the game and it's connections to real myths and stories without worrying about going off topic. What say you people, admins and reds? Come on, it's too interesting to pass up this opportunity!
 
I see where you're coming from there, and certainly if an "officially sanctioned lore sticky" appeared this thread would likely die, as it has broadened its theme since the initial postings, but I quite like the fact that it requires us to keep it going because that reflects the source material too, plus whatever the truth of Baba Yaga ingame, she certainly kicked off a damn fine thread, and deserves to keep the credit ;)

Pat Mills Sláine is an excellent comic, one of the best - particularly Bisleys Horned God series - which has still got to be on any comics fans Top10 for the art alone even 25+ years later... although its never been discussed directly I suspect a lot of people around here know this for themselves already, but a poll might be interesting to find out. Would make a great game (hint hint) ;)

Topical Picture (probably could've picked any page tbh):

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I read a very interesting paper (in Polish) which argues that Ciri is a figure of the Grail:

1. Ciri is the one destined to save "wasteland" - (world destroyed by the white cold).
2. It's frequently mentioned in the books, that Ciri brings death. Jus like the druidic vessel (refference to The Mists of Avalon).
3. In the books everybody is looking for Ciri. There is even a party questing for her. Almost all "knights" die.
4. Theme of royal, mystical blood.
5. Emhyr var Emreis'es homeland has fishes and crowns in it's coat-of-arms.
6. Auberon is old, tired king in despair. His land needs a cure (Ciri).

There is many more.
 
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Intriguing... the elements certainly match up

  1. Giver of Life
  2. Bringer of Death (Opener of the Doors)
  3. So whos Galahad / Percival (although exact correlation for these characters is unnecessary)
  4. Destiny
  5. The Fisher King
  6. The Wounded King

Incidentally, The O'Donnell of Tyrconnell is the only incidence I'm aware of a someone in real life being popularly known - abroad, outside his own lands - as The Fisher King. (big trade in atlantic fish to France for Wine, them were the days ;))
 
So whos Galahad / Percival (although exact correlation for these characters is unnecessary)

Well, there is a moment, when Geralt's medalion is destroyed and he claims that he is no longer a witcher. Earlier he becomes knighted (like Percival?). Geralt is son of a sorceress, like Galahad. And maybe I'm going too far, but Geralt's love for Yennefer is difficult, as Percival's love for Guinevre. And Geralt finds Ciri in a castle.

And another trope from me: Emhyr var Emreis is Bran the Blessed? ;)
 
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love for Yennefer is difficult

I think this is quite well understood ;)

Galaherlat seems very tight, climaxing in the castle pretty much seals it. The Witchers impotence* is permanent though right? Not fundamentally tied to his profession... I mean he can't just change jobs & be potent again? I've always understood the successful quester to be more than a messenger boy, if you get my meaning ;)

Fisherbran the Keeper also matches up, although I'm assuming its not an Imperial castle.

Is Auberon impotent, or limping? Of course this is also the metaphor of the Land & the King are One, and I understand they are essentially dying. To be honest these two characters are interchangeable, almost like ones an astral projection of the confined other, in the original and I think here too (metaphorically). Emhyr have kids? Could Nilfgaard be thought of as sourland, stagnant, dying? Its just Auberon is more mystical, more Psychopompish...

Tying myself in knots here ;)

* I do recall a conversation about this between Geralt & Triss, iirc a reversal of Gerlats fortunes isn't impossible...

edit: Very interesting stuff, but I promised myself a pint tonight after a late nights work yesterday ;)
 
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The Witchers impotence* is permanent though right? Not fundamentally tied to his profession... I mean he can't just change jobs & be potent again? I've always understood the successful quester to be more than a messenger boy, if you get my meaning ;)

I'll go even further.
Geralt and Yennefer are both barren. Their relationship is a wasteland. Ciri cures it in the finale.

Is Auberon impotent, or *cough* limping? [...] Emhyr have kids? Could Nilfgaard be thought of as sourland?

Rememer about Vilgefortz. He is wounded (the eye). He is the keeper of the Grail and the owner of the castle. ;)
 
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Damn this is good stuff, I thought Sapkowski was good, but I've just realised he's even better. These parallels to Indo-European culture are tight - they can't be accidental - but remain subtle, and yet still provide freedom for multiple avenues here to journey should that be desired.

The description of the Castle immediately reminded me of the Fisher Kings abode "It is located on a cliff next to a stone lake", I recall the Wounded is confined inside, the Source is inside, the Fisher fishes the lake during the day (the land is unproductive, yet water - a feminine element - still supplies sustenance), at dusk he illuminates the source in the Castle window removing the beacon again at dawn, thats their existence in a nutshell, waiting for the Knight, who eventually led by the light encounters the Fisher.

I see Vilgefortz is the active representative of the distant Emhyr, so the Castle is essentially Imperial.

Slight digression: I don't think a single popular modern version of the Grail myth has been entirely faithful to the original, in that they all drop an essential aspect for convenience sake, or through modern sensibilities. In the original there are three essential characters, the old Wounded King, the current Fisher King, the next Questing King. Across our Indo-European cultures theres been an identifiable Trifunctional hypothesis of social structure: Sovereignty, Productivity, Martial.

Sovereignty = Priestly caste, but a Ruler too, the old King who has lost the Sacred connection to the Land. Hes Wounded.
Productivity = the Worker caste, the Maintainer keeping things running day to day, the current King. The Fisher.
Martial = the Warrior caste, Questing to make things whole again. The Knight.

All the modern Grail versions focus on Arthur as the Wounded king, drop the Fisher altogether, and turn the Knight into a messenger boy, ultimately serving the old King. A relatively modern monarchist conceit? I think so. Arthur, the old King has broken the union, he's hanging on past his time, this is anathema in the culture, theres no coming back for him, the cycle turns it does not reverse. Yet Sapkowski may well have seen right through this ! Obviously he has added antagonism between the three with artistic license, or perhaps these parallels I see are coincidence, but right now it looks quite solid to me. And I've only had a pint ;)

Time to gather my thoughts, but for future reference, theres been somewhere in the region of 1800 bog bodies found across Europe, many showing signs of the Threefold Death - a ritual killing for those who have broken the sacred three duties, it seems the most heinous of crimes in Indo-European culture. This Heresy has been recorded not only in Myth, but during the life of St. Columba.

I'm also pondering where Auberon could fit in. Bran is both Fisher & Wounded and has been described as a Psychopomp as he has power over life & death both temporal and spiritual. The Pope is a Psychopomp he guides the spirits of believers to the afterlife, to the otherworld, a despotic ruler is a False-Psychopomp he can take life but not guide spirits, having temporal power only. Arguably Auberon could be a Psychopomp as he travels worlds and takes lives away (literally) and Emhyr a False-Psychopomp, there could be a relationship here. The Wounded king still has some of his old spiritual powers, I swear I've read the idea that he could project his spirit. But this speculation is most likely just an interesting mirroring of realms.
 
You blokes ever hear of Old Mother Shipton, always reminds me of Baba Yaga, and i've got to admit the petrifying waterfall at her cave is bloody fascinating. Great thread.
 
@Blothulfur; I've heard of her alright, many times, but I don't recall what I've read, so it must've been in passing or metaphorical, or maybe theres an old tune for her?
 
@theta77; Maybe I'm focusing on Perceval, le Conte du Graal too much, and I admit I'm not well informed of life in Flanders in Chrétien de Troyes time, but around that time Primogeniture was taking hold sponsored by the Vatican:

In the feudal law of England, France, Germany, and other European countries, the right of primogeniture was established in the 11th to 13th centuries in order to avoid the division of real estate.

I don't know if this is an element, but the politics of the era are often reflected in its art, and if Flanders was anything like here Primogeniture was resisted by many (in fact here it never happened). Here the system was Tanistry, and it was inextricably linked to the surviving Tripartite caste system still in use by the Gaels. By then it had evolved somewhat from the basic Priest / Warrior / Worker to Priest / Warrior / Bard (that change appears to have happened 575AD because nearly the third of the men of Ireland followed the bardic profession and were becoming a nuisance, apparently).

it followed that the king of Ireland and every provincial king and every lord of a cantred had a special ollamh, and that each of these ollamhs had free land from his own lord, and, moreover, the lands and worldly possessions of each of these ollamhs enjoyed general exemption and sanctuary from the men of Ireland. It was also ordained that a common estate should be set apart for the ollamhs where they could give public instruction after the manner of a University, such as Raith Cheannait and Masruidhe Mhuighe Sleacht, in Breithfne, where they gave free instruction in the sciences to the men of Ireland, as many as desired to become learned in seanchus and in the other sciences that were in vogue in Ireland at that time.

Just as Bishops, Priests & Monks replaced the Druids at the various levels in the Gaelic system, so the Bards appear to have replaced - and seemingly subsumed, or if the "third of the men" above can be taken literally, been transformed from - the Workers. That 3rd position in the legal system was definitely occupied prior to the Bards, and its not only representing the castes at the various levels of chiefs that the number three applies, it's a regular motif. I wonder if de Troyes was familiar with something similar? But its hard for me not to think he was aware of Irelands legends.

In his - unfortunately unfinished tale - at the Castle Perceval is given a Sword, observes a Bloody Spear, and a platter with food refilled many times, The Loathly Lady appears at the end to chastise him, well its obvious who she is, but what is less obvious is another form she takes that completes a certain Legendary quartet. She also appears in Irish Myth, for instance to Niall of the Nine Hostages, and proclaims him High King, the exact same job as the Lia Fáil.

“Go now to thy brothers,” she said, “and take water with thee, and the kingship and the domination will for ever abide with thee and thy children

So, I think it's correct to view this origin of the Grail myth through a Gaelic Celt prism, and since they held on so dearly to the Trifunctional hypothesis, that must be considered relevant too, imho.

edit: not to the exclusion of other prisms of course, and then after this very first mention of a Grail, others contributed too.
 
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I read a very interesting paper (in Polish) which argues that Ciri is a figure of the Grail:

There is many more.

Returning to beginning, have a ponder on this: Trifunctional aspects of Ciri?

  • Witcheress: Martial. Seeker. (#1?)
  • Sorceress: Priest: Potential Madness. (#2?)
  • Rat: Productivity: Lammas: Harvest Festival. (#4?)

It really is the Myth that keeps on giving, de Troyes' particularly feels like it contains Mystery, full of Initiation, allegory, and demands involvement, or maybe its just an illusion caused by an unfinished tale. Here's an abridged pdf if anyones curious. No Merlin yet, but theres already a correlation between their origin stories imo, its all about the threes, ask the last pagan Ard Rí, and Black Hugh MacSweeney who did for him.

The Frenzy of Sweeney is from a few hundred years later, a rewrite most likely as the new religion settled, it tries & fails to hide the core elements, perhaps it hints at the gradual effect of memory loss, or maybe it shows the tale was still popular, sure even today its popular amongst the artists.


Note he calls himself "Fer benn". Poets Heaney & Carson are intrigued.


Here it is again, this time in the Táin, "Fer ben": "the horned one".

Three castes, three equal chiefs every level, three levels of kings described in the Crith Gabhlach: The Ordering of Society, a 7th century Brehon law tract:



The Dagda, also known as Fer Benn. His Cauldron of Plenty called The Undry. de Troyes successor Wolframs Loathly Lady Condrie ? Wagners Kundry? Maybe horned helmets weren't such an innovation on that Operas first night after all ;)
 

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