Balance between Classic vs New Aesthetic

[Draymar23]

Balance between Classic vs New Aesthetic

From watching the CP2077 trailer and Blade Runner years ago I was really excited to see 2049. I just happened to have seen it and while the story was great, I found the visuals to be very disapointing. I loved that Los Angeles in the original Blade Runner looked cold, dark, grimy and oppresive. The mix of the old and new, packed with neon, rain and steaming potholes everywhere and shadows covering every alleyway was not only beautiful and vibrant but very immersive. 2049 to me felt very clinical, clean and desaturated. I saw lots of rain but saw very little in the way of neon, dense shadow and steam. There were no remnants of old buildings from 2019, every new structure was too smooth and there was too much light in certain places. Anyway, that is the end of my rant on Blade Runner 2049, I want to get back to CP2077.

When I saw the CP2077 trailer I was conflicted. On one hand it looked very clean, but on the other hand there were obvious nods to Blade Runner and the retrofuturistic Syd Mead aesthetic. But now after seeing 2049, I actually love the look of the trailer. However the age of the trailer has me concerned. As you would remember the trailer came out in 2013 and since then we have had the live action Ghost in the Shell and of course Blade Runner 2049 come out last year. When those films came out I saw a shift in the aesthetics of cyberpunk to an ultra clean and extremely sleek look. To me the cyberpunk look was always dark, grimy, rainy, neon lit and steamy and I am concerned that the look of the trailer has been scrapped during development of the finished game. Now I know that people might respond with "But that was the 80s and 90s. Cyberpunk has to keep moving forward" but I must bring up that Syndicate, Detroit: Become Human and Deus Ex Mankind Divided look and feel very much like the original Blade Runner so it isnt a difficult or dated thing to do. I felt that the trailer for CP2077 was a great mix of old and new and I pray that not much has changed, but I am nervous that that classic mood and aesthetic will be lost. To me, cyberpunk is just as much about the look and feel as it is about the themes and story. You cant have one without the other. Thats why Strange Days is my favourite Cyberpunk film.

Enough rambling though. Thoughts?

 

[Sardukhar]

From watching the CP2077 trailer and Blade Runner years ago I was really excited to see 2049. I just happened to have seen it and while the story was great, I found the visuals to be very disapointing. I loved that Los Angeles in the original Blade Runner looked cold, dark, grimy and oppresive. The mix of the old and new, packed with neon, rain and steaming potholes everywhere and shadows covering every alleyway was not only beautiful and vibrant but very immersive. 2049 to me felt very clinical, clean and desaturated. I saw lots of rain but saw very little in the way of neon, dense shadow and steam. There were no remnants of old buildings from 2019, every new structure was too smooth and there was too much light in certain places. Anyway, that is the end of my rant on Blade Runner 2049, I want to get back to CP2077.

When I saw the CP2077 trailer I was conflicted. On one hand it looked very clean, but on the other hand there were obvious nods to Blade Runner and the retrofuturistic Syd Mead aesthetic. But now after seeing 2049, I actually love the look of the trailer. However the age of the trailer has me concerned. As you would remember the trailer came out in 2013 and since then we have had the live action Ghost in the Shell and of course Blade Runner 2049 come out last year. When those films came out I saw a shift in the aesthetics of cyberpunk to an ultra clean and extremely sleek look. To me the cyberpunk look was always dark, grimy, rainy, neon lit and steamy and I am concerned that the look of the trailer has been scrapped during development of the finished game. Now I know that people might respond with "But that was the 80s and 90s. Cyberpunk has to keep moving forward" but I must bring up that Syndicate, Detroit: Become Human and Deus Ex Mankind Divided look and feel very much like the original Blade Runner so it isnt a difficult or dated thing to do. I felt that the trailer for CP2077 was a great mix of old and new and I pray that not much has changed, but I am nervous that that classic mood and aesthetic will be lost. To me, cyberpunk is just as much about the look and feel as it is about the themes and story. You cant have one without the other. Thats why Strange Days is my favourite Cyberpunk film.

Enough rambling though. Thoughts?

Well, we play Cyberpunk 2020 the pen and paper role playing game in our minds. So the look varies from person to person. I can't even say for sure, outside of a vague blade-runner-esque sense, what other people are imagining.

I think the themes and story are important - you can have a far-future Cyberpunk or even a 40s cyberpunk without the cyber, in terms of Casablanca for example.

I think the visuals are what make Cyberpunk 2020/2077 particular -from- Casablanca or, say, the space-western Outland, about a deep-space Cop facing Corporate Solos.

But everyone sees it differently is my point. I really suggest keeping an open mind and remember that what is most important to CPunk is that noir story and feel..plus cyberware!

Otherwise some people, expecting or hating say, 80s Cpunk visuals, are going to be disappointed. Because they picked an epoch and decided -that- was Cyberpunk.

 

[Suhiira]

When I saw the CP2077 trailer I was conflicted. On one hand it looked very clean, but on the other hand there were obvious nods to Blade Runner and the retrofuturistic Syd Mead aesthetic.

Pay attention to the corpses she made during her rampage. Look at how they're dressed, she's obviously in a Corp Zone (or one of the other areas the Corps actively police). So, yes, I'd expect it to be relatively clean. After all, this is where the "important" people spend their evenings, you really expect them to have to deal with trash in the streets (and winos, prostitutes, street gangs, and other assorted low-lifes count as trash)?

But now after seeing 2049, I actually love the look of the trailer. However the age of the trailer has me concerned. As you would remember the trailer came out in 2013 and since then we have had the live action Ghost in the Shell and of course Blade Runner 2049 come out last year. When those films came out I saw a shift in the aesthetics of cyberpunk to an ultra clean and extremely sleek look. To me the cyberpunk look was always dark, grimy, rainy, neon lit and steamy and I am concerned that the look of the trailer has been scrapped during development of the finished game.

If you want dark, gritty, grimy atmosphere go to the Combat Zone.

 

[Snowflakez]

From watching the CP2077 trailer and Blade Runner years ago I was really excited to see 2049. I just happened to have seen it and while the story was great, I found the visuals to be very disapointing. I loved that Los Angeles in the original Blade Runner looked cold, dark, grimy and oppresive. The mix of the old and new, packed with neon, rain and steaming potholes everywhere and shadows covering every alleyway was not only beautiful and vibrant but very immersive. 2049 to me felt very clinical, clean and desaturated. I saw lots of rain but saw very little in the way of neon, dense shadow and steam. There were no remnants of old buildings from 2019, every new structure was too smooth and there was too much light in certain places. Anyway, that is the end of my rant on Blade Runner 2049, I want to get back to CP2077.

When I saw the CP2077 trailer I was conflicted. On one hand it looked very clean, but on the other hand there were obvious nods to Blade Runner and the retrofuturistic Syd Mead aesthetic. But now after seeing 2049, I actually love the look of the trailer. However the age of the trailer has me concerned. As you would remember the trailer came out in 2013 and since then we have had the live action Ghost in the Shell and of course Blade Runner 2049 come out last year. When those films came out I saw a shift in the aesthetics of cyberpunk to an ultra clean and extremely sleek look. To me the cyberpunk look was always dark, grimy, rainy, neon lit and steamy and I am concerned that the look of the trailer has been scrapped during development of the finished game. Now I know that people might respond with "But that was the 80s and 90s. Cyberpunk has to keep moving forward" but I must bring up that Syndicate, Detroit: Become Human and Deus Ex Mankind Divided look and feel very much like the original Blade Runner so it isnt a difficult or dated thing to do. I felt that the trailer for CP2077 was a great mix of old and new and I pray that not much has changed, but I am nervous that that classic mood and aesthetic will be lost. To me, cyberpunk is just as much about the look and feel as it is about the themes and story. You cant have one without the other. Thats why Strange Days is my favourite Cyberpunk film.

Enough rambling though. Thoughts?

You get very few (if any) close glimpses of 2049's street-level city, so I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. Most shots are of the city's highrises, and the roofs of buildings. The police HQ was clean because it's... well, the inside of a police HQ. Most cop/"corporate"-type areas are like that.

The one time you really get a decent look at the streets is when K is approached by the prostitutes, and the city looked plenty dirty/grimy to me then.

So, again, I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about. I haven't seen Ghost in the Shell so I can't comment on that, though.

Just google "Bladerunner 2049 streets" or something to that effect and you'll see plenty of what you're talking about - though the movie just came out digitally, so not many shots are up yet.

 

[Suhiira]

So, again, I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about. I haven't seen Ghost in the Shell so I can't comment on that, though.

Doesn't "Ghost in the Shell" take place in Tokyo (or at least Japan)?
Tokyo is widely known to be one of the cleanest cities on Earth.
(Gotta admire a lot about the Japanese, even if they sell used undies in vending machines.)

 

[Snowflakez]

(Gotta admire a lot about the Japanese, even if they sell used undies in vending machines.)

You say that like it's a bad thing. Kidding, kidding... The Japs are an eccentric bunch for sure.

But I agree. They definitely have a lot of problems, but there's no denying that they know how to take care of their city and, honestly, their citizens (most of the time). I was especially impressed when I visited to find people everywhere wearing facemasks, presumably to keep viruses/colds from spreading. That's absolutely not something you see in America!

 

[Gillian_Seed]

What I want is a mix of 80's cyberpunk neon noir and dark industrial cyberpunk. If it were either or I would be disappointed but if it were only the more grittier aspects of cyberpunk where almost everything is presented in variations of grey I would be devastated.

 

[Draymar23]

Pay attention to the corpses she made during her rampage. Look at how they're dressed, she's obviously in a Corp Zone (or one of the other areas the Corps actively police). So, yes, I'd expect it to be relatively clean. After all, this is where the "important" people spend their evenings, you really expect them to have to deal with trash in the streets (and winos, prostitutes, street gangs, and other assorted low-lifes count as trash)?


Actually, having a look at the Night City sourcebook I pinpointed it to Northside since it is the only section of Night City that has a Dynalar Technologies store. The only problem is that Northside was not actively policed in 2020 (although that could have changed between then and 2077). Alternatively there may have been another Dynalar Technologies store built in the Corp Zone, so who knows. Maybe the location in the trailer has no connection to the sourcebook. I guess it is stupid of me to think that Night City will be similar to how it is in 2020 when a lot will have changed (especially after the tactical nuke incident which Mike Pondsmith talked about when the game was first revealed).

 

[Suhiira]

Actually, having a look at the Night City sourcebook I pinpointed it to Northside since it is the only section of Night City that has a Dynalar Technologies store. The only problem is that Northside was not actively policed in 2020 (although that could have changed between then and 2077). Alternatively there may have been another Dynalar Technologies store built in the Corp Zone, so who knows. Maybe the location in the trailer has no connection to the sourcebook. I guess it is stupid of me to think that Night City will be similar to how it is in 2020 when a lot will have changed (especially after the tactical nuke incident which Mike Pondsmith talked about when the game was first revealed).

I'd bet they didn't even look at a map of Night City when they made the background buildings for the trailer.
As much as there are several interesting, and nostalgic, elements in it the focus is the girl and the Psycho Squad Officer.

 

[Snowflakez]

I'd bet they didn't even look at a map of Night City when they made the background buildings for the trailer.
As much as there are several interesting, and nostalgic, elements in it the focus is the girl and the Psycho Squad Officer.

You mean the Psycho Squad officers, since she apparently becomes one at the end? Is that a thing that happens in 2020? Strange.

Anyway, yeah, didn't seem like there was too much of importance attached to the background buildings in the trailer, aside from them looking awesome and thematic as hell.

A big part of me hopes those arm blades make it into the game...

 

[Suhiira]

You mean the Psycho Squad officers, since she apparently becomes one at the end? Is that a thing that happens in 2020? Strange.

Different GMs will of course handle the details of the Psycho Squad differently. But, yes, they've been known to "recruit" from the people they're sent to neutralize.
Some claim they're all legally "dead" and this is why normal laws don't apply to them. So legally .. the girl is dead ... end of threat, "justice" served.

 

[RLKing1969]

You mean the Psycho Squad officers, since she apparently becomes one at the end? Is that a thing that happens in 2020? Strange.

Anyway, yeah, didn't seem like there was too much of importance attached to the background buildings in the trailer, aside from them looking awesome and thematic as hell.

A big part of me hopes those arm blades make it into the game...

Who better to hunt a rampaging Cyberpsycho than a former Cyberpsycho. Besides, splattering her brains all over the tarmac would have been a complete and total waste of a very nice and very expensive full conversion setup...and heaven knows, C-SWAT probably needs all the help they can get.

 

[SigilFey]

The trouble with "aesthetics" are that they're generational, and they tend to read totally differently to different generations. We all have those books / films / games from our childhood that we remember so fondly and want to share with everyone. But that will very rarely happen. The kids nowadays are likely to take one look at my cherished aesthetic and be, like, "OMG...what? For really?" (Eyeroll / sneer / guffawing laughter.)

Any good, modern re-creation will develop its own aesthetic for that, modern audience. Ideally, something that pays homage to the original, dated material...manages to capture a tone and mood that modern audiences across the board can appreciate...and maintain a complete sense of itself. (Conversely, a bad re-creation will fail to understand the energy and weight of the source material...miss the mark bringing the aesthetics into a relevant place for modern audiences...and lose all track of itself as it tries to "ape" the aesthetics of some, other, successful franchise or established approach.)

Would a pink mohawk, spike-y dog collar and armband, and a shirtless, open denim vest really read as threatening and uncomfortable, making a clear societal statement in the modern day? Probably not. It would most likely get a wry smile and look awfully cringe-worthy to modern audiences.

A close-cropped, blended mohawk, tips highlighted in pink, jewelry made from steel, a stylish but beat-up sport coat, over a shirtless, tattooed torso would read far more readily to a modern audience while accomplishing the same goal.

 

[Snowflakez]

The trouble with "aesthetics" are that they're generational, and they tend to read totally differently to different generations. We all have those books / films / games from our childhood that we remember so fondly and want to share with everyone. But that will very rarely happen. The kids nowadays are likely to take one look at my cherished aesthetic and be, like, "OMG...what? For really?" (Eyeroll / sneer / guffawing laughter.)

Any good, modern re-creation will develop its own aesthetic for that, modern audience. Ideally, something that pays homage to the original, dated material...manages to capture a tone and mood that modern audiences across the board can appreciate...and maintain a complete sense of itself. (Conversely, a bad re-creation will fail to understand the energy and weight of the source material...miss the mark bringing the aesthetics into a relevant place for modern audiences...and lose all track of itself as it tries to "ape" the aesthetics of some, other, successful franchise or established approach.)

Would a pink mohawk, spike-y dog collar and armband, and a shirtless, open denim vest really read as threatening and uncomfortable, making a clear societal statement in the modern day? Probably not. It would most likely get a wry smile and look awfully cringe-worthy to modern audiences.

A close-cropped, blended mohawk, tips highlighted in pink, jewelry made from steel, a stylish but beat-up sport coat, over a shirtless, tattooed torso would read far more readily to a modern audience while accomplishing the same goal.

Both of the examples you gave sound fine to me, but I don't think we should ever give up the true "punk" aspects of style just to appeal to a modern audience.

Even today, "punk" outfits look pretty similar to how they did many years ago. Style has changed, true, but we're not talking a colonial-to-modern style jump, or something equally as noticeable.

Spiky hair, dark, leather clothing, piercings, etc. are all still very much a punk-y style. Female undercuts are one style I'm particularly interested in seeing, with bright, neon-colored hair (not something I find attractive, just something that would be totally awesome to have in the game).

Clothing and personal style is one thing, other aesthetics are tougher. The mood, the lighting, the shape of the buildings and signs or even the design of vehicles -- the overall art style, in other words -- that'll be tougher to nail down for CDPR, I think. Frankly, aside from still images, the Cyberpunk source material offers very little to go off of. Physical descriptions are well and good, but video games are a very different medium with a different method of communicating with the player.

So, my question is, would people prefer a Deus Ex style, a Blade Runner style, or something else entirely? What is the best "modern" Cyberpunk medium to pull from? Going strictly off moving visual material that we have access to, so movies, games and TV shows are ideal.

Chances are, CDPR will come up with something that stands on its own two feet when stacked up against the stuff I just mentioned, but it's gotta pull its inspiration from something.

 

[RLKing1969]

I have said it once and I will say it again...For the love of all that is sacred... NO "MAN BUNS" and "PANTS HANGING OFF OF YOUR ASS!" I will shoot the first dumb ass I see in the game making such a "fashion statement".

 

[Sardukhar]

I have said it once and I will say it again...For the love of all that is sacred... NO "MAN BUNS" and "PANTS HANGING OFF OF YOUR ASS!" I will shoot the first dumb ass I see in the game making such a "fashion statement".

And they will shoot back...if there is more of them them, or they are better, you're dead.

Also, remember some people enjoy those things IRL, so let's temper our words a bit. Even if we think they are, ah, less than our manly ideal.

 

[Guest 4149880]

I'd honestly hope they have a mixture of old and new tech. As shown in the trailer as well as the developers have talked about how Night City will have generations of technology built on top of the last, by the point of 2077.

2077 isn't only going to have tech built that year. Everything will not be brand new and shiny, but also old and gritty. I assume there will be old variations of tech being used even in 2077 as well as newer iterations. Mike Pondsmith him self has said that you'll see this type of design in the game, that shows how technology has evolved over the years from 2020 to 2077 and I think that will show in all areas of the game from the environment to the weapons and gear... everything.

All the different zones of the city and surrounding areas will all have a unique aesthetic and atmosphere, from the slums to the corporate zone to the combat zone.

Also the first buildings to be constructed in Night City are based on older design and would still be standing, and by 2077 would have had more built onto them with new technology.

You can see here that new support beams have been put into place on older buildings to reinforce the structure mass of the new levels built above and also how the design of the buildings at different heights start to change because of the difference in technology used. I've read that was a conscious design choice they wanted to use when making some areas of Night City. They wouldn't just demolish all old buildings just to build a brand new one, not in all cases.



I think the mix of retro tech could still have its presence in the game as well as new generations of tech, and this goes for all aspects of the game. Obviously the game takes place in 2077 but in comparison to todays real world, we still see old tech being used. Vehicles, weapons, clothing, entertainment, as well as city design, all variations of age. I see it working very similarly in the game and to a much greater degree.

Also, using retro tech could have its benefits vs using new tech if its corporate owned, operated and controlled. Could be a underlying theme of the game.

 

[RLKing1969]

And they will shoot back...if there is more of them them, or they are better, you're dead.

Also, remember some people enjoy those things IRL, so let's temper our words a bit. Even if we think they are, ah, less than our manly ideal.

Ah, but that is what highly fortified sniper positions, nerve gas and machine guns are for, lad....LOL!


Never said I fought "fair." [COLOR=inherit !important]


[/COLOR]

 

[Suhiira]

Keep in mind that Night City was built from nothing starting in 1994 so nothing is going to be that old.
Sure there will be some changes in architecture styles but it's only been 83 years since the city was founded, and chances are they used the most modern and up-to-date techniques at the time. Look around the city/town you live in real life, look at buildings constructed in the 1930's, most buildings (not counting steel skeleton glass covered sky scrapers) aren't all that much different from modern ones .

 

[Guest 4149880]

Keep in mind that Night City was built from nothing starting in 1994 so nothing is going to be that old.
Sure there will be some changes in architecture styles but it's only been 83 years since the city was founded, and chances are they used the most modern and up-to-date techniques at the time. Look around the city/town you live in real life, look at buildings constructed in the 1930's, most buildings (not counting steel skeleton glass covered sky scrapers) aren't all that much different from modern ones .

Well that might be true in our current world, but in the Cyberpunk world of the future its probably quite different. Compare old buildings in New York to new buildings in Dubai. The leap in technology from 1994 to 2077 will be far greater in the cyberpunk world than the early 1900 to 2017 in our world.