[Balance Change Proposal] Tokens to draw cards as a solution to spies vs drawing between rounds

[Rocwell9]

[Balance Change Proposal] Tokens to draw cards as a solution to spies vs drawing between rounds

http://forums.cdprojektred.com/thre...me-mechanics?p=3037510&viewfull=1#post3037510

I made this suggestion in the other thread and a few people asked me to make a thread on the topic so people could discuss the merits of this change.

What if instead of having spy cards or card draws between rounds, each player got a number of tokens (crowns? as in the coin) which they could play to draw a card from their deck?

This way it would be an even amount of cards available to both sides but each player gets to choose when they play them similar to a spy card. This could allow to make up for a poor mulligan phase or allow you to stall at certain points, and just give the player more control over when they're pulling their additional cards into their hand so they're less likely to get force fed muster cards they don't want when a round ends earlier than expected.

Having talked a bit with folks on the Gwent discord about it a bit I actually think I like the idea of being able to play them whenever you want and not taking a turn much more appealing. Just each player drawing 3 cards each can extend the length of a game quite a fair amount but having a token be playable would extend a game another 3 turns on top of that. Having something to do while waiting for your turn could help make the wait a little more bearable.

As someone who was a big fan of TW3 Gwent I felt like the redraws between rounds were completely jarring to the way I thought Gwent was supposed to be played, but I'm also excited by the idea of spies as we know them completely changing, this change would function similarly to spies by allowing you to introduce new cards into your hand in a strategic way that feels way less random and is still fair to both players.

Being able to control when you make your draws will increase the skill cap for the game and make good plays rather than "welp I got screwed by my draw on round 3"

Also it will give you something to do while waiting on your opponent's turn. "This guys' taking too long let's see what my deck has for me... oh sweet I got that commander's horn I needed!"

What do you all think?

---------- Updated at 12:44 AM ----------

Another thought which just occurred to me is they could choose to make cards which could interact with the gold coin tokens. This way it would function like an old spy card. You could have merchant cards which give you an additional token or bandit cards that steal a coin from your opponent. It really fits in with the theme of the game about two armies clashing by functioning as a "war-fund chest".

 

[Tensesquirrel01]

I really support this idea and would love it to catch on. Also I think the idea of coins and merchants and the like is pretty fun and interactive.

 

[DrewjiLA]

I'm not really into this idea. Most of the time, you'd just immediately use the tokens to draw the extra cards at the beginning of the game, because why deny yourself the intel? This is virtually the same as just drawing 13 cards instead of 10, which I'm not a fan of either. I think there are better solutions that are less clunky and don't require actions during other players turns, which can be problematic for other performance-related issues.

 

[Rocwell9]

I really support this idea and would love it to catch on. Also I think the idea of coins and merchants and the like is pretty fun and interactive.

There are times when you don't want to draw an additional card to your hand, it would allow players with muster decks to prevent drawing less unhelpful cards.

You could actually do it with cards. Just make it so each side draws a card instead of the complicated, "I draw more cards than you, but I'm putting 12 strength on your side of the board" crazy algorithm that seems to be in testing right now lol

Merchant card- add 4 strength to my board and both players draw 1 card.

 

[SkyHeadCaptain]

this is a dlc idea for gwent

money could be a cool add on idea for gwent like a merchant shop you can go to instead of playing a card like units when you play them give you like 5 coins and it takes 30 to draw a random card or 70 coins to chose a card in your deck to add into your hand. like make a low power unit every turn he is alive you get 4 coins, or one that has if it is the round's end and he is still alive you get 7 coins. these are ideas that are great for an add on but not the base game. also you would make these moves on your turn. not redrawing cards during mulligan could earn coins as well I think an idea like this could be sweet and add a lot of new plays and a whole new level to gwent.

 

[Rocwell9]

I dunno if we want to start drifting into Dota territory, I think doing it with cards is probably the best way on further thought.

 

[Mythic_Pilot]

I really like this idea .. Gives players more control over their additional card draw so you don't have to play all musters in first round and other bad things end of the round draws bring

---------- Updated at 02:56 AM ----------

Nilfgaard would like that war chest since they like buying their foes

---------- Updated at 03:01 AM ----------

I'm not really into this idea. Most of the time, you'd just immediately use the tokens to draw the extra cards at the beginning of the game, because why deny yourself the intel? This is virtually the same as just drawing 13 cards instead of 10, which I'm not a fan of either. I think there are better solutions that are less clunky and don't require actions during other players turns, which can be problematic for other performance-related issues.

Why do you believe that ? .. Most of the time people will play with muster card that they want to get rid off to not get duplicates .. This mechanic gives them more freedom to play optimally unlike the forced end of the round draws


---------- Updated at 03:16 AM ----------

I don't know how editing my post got So messed up it's the first time that ever happened to me .. Hope the moderators can fix that

 

[DrewjiLA]

I would say that firstly, muster is one mechanic in the game and should not have influence the base rules of the game. The number of decks that rely on muster is going to only be a fraction of the total deck population.

Aside from that though, I think it's possible to argue that this new idea of card draw would disadvantage Muster decks even further. They still keep the same risk as before, drawing extra muster cards even after mulligan, but now they are discouraged from using their there draw tokens immediately because they could draw even further into muster with an even higher likelihood of hitting the wrong cards. The other decks can exploit this by forcing a round 1 battle where they can use the advantage of extra cards/turns and also just knowing what those extra cards will be. Muster decks will be heavily forced into playing out muster cards first when they otherwise might have wanted to, because if they don't they won't be able to maximize the draw effect you're proposing. They are also at an information disadvantage (as is anyone) who decides to wait to draw against anyone who doesn't wait.

Besides the effect on muster decks, which I argue is negative, these rules also just seem more convoluted and unwelcoming to newer players, who will undoubtably cash in the tokens in the early stages of their game without much strategic thought. We shouldn't create this many barriers to play effectively and the developers have already clearly expressed some issues with making sure players don't waste every card in the first round -- their current version (which I would like to see changed) of drawing over the course of the three rounds was a directed approach to combat people unfamiliar with the game from misunderstanding how to win.

 

[jvc125]

I dont like the idea.

 

[Keymaker7]

I will add two my ideas how to manage and balance spies and advantage they give:

1. Let's make spies unique, for example let every faction has access to only 1 spy. I you draw it at the beginning - you are lucky, if not, you need to manage without them (even if the opponent has a spy, it will be only one spy so it is not such advantage)

2. And it seems to even better solution: Give spies resilient ability. The main problem is that we use spies most often in round we plan to lose, so we do not care about points the opponent has. But with this solution we need to take this additional enemy points into consideration, because we will see them in the next round, which we want to win.

What do you think guys?

 

[BlackWolf500.298]

I will add two my ideas how to manage and balance spies and advantage they give:

1. Let's make spies unique, for example let every faction has access to only 1 spy. I you draw it at the beginning - you are lucky, if not, you need to manage without them (even if the opponent has a spy, it will be only one spy so it is not such advantage)

2. And it seems to even better solution: Give spies resilient ability. The main problem is that we use spies most often in round we plan to lose, so we do not care about points the opponent has. But with this solution we need to take this additional enemy points into consideration, because we will see them in the next round, which we want to win.

What do you think guys?

Good ideas here, sounds interesting.
One of my suggestions was to make Spies have a debuff on enemy forces.

- You play Spy
- Spy gives enemy STR
- Spy debuffs enemy in a row of your choice

Lore-wise that would be another logical way to include Spies without the whole "card advantage" shenanigans
If you really want to keep the card draw however we need to eliminate the "turn advantage" point of the spies
Which means we have to force the player to play a card IMMEDIATELY after he played the Spy.
It would work like this then:

- You play Spy
- Opponent gets STR
- Spy debufs units in the same row (or in row of your choice if gold card spy)
- You can draw a card from your deck
- You have to play a card (of your choice) immediately (in order to not give you "turn advantage")
- Opponents turn

That would obviously mean Spies would not be about getting an extra turn anymore, but just about getting an extra card from your deck and debuff the enemy. Which is still pretty strong. Which is why I would make Spies Silver cards, meaning you can only have 1 in your deck.

 

[jvc125]

It would work like this then:

- You play Spy
- Opponent gets STR
- Spy debufs units in the same row (or in row of your choice if gold card spy)
- You can draw a card from your deck
- You have to play a card (of your choice) immediately (in order to not give you "turn advantage")
- Opponents turn
.

I like it, very good idea.

 

[Mythic_Pilot]

Well Scoiatael spies like Yaevinn and Tourviel used to debuff enemies on their row and it didn't work

 

[BlackWolf500.298]

Well Scoiatael spies like Yaevinn and Tourviel used to debuff enemies on their row and it didn't work

That was before the changes/nerfs.
And that is not the point. My main point was not the debuffs, I was just thinking about ways to replace the former function of the Spies while keeping their appeal so that people actually feel like they want to use them.

 

[IrritadoBR]

Hmm i don't like this tbh. Just add 3 more cards to the starting hand, it's simple. Also, idk if adding another system to the game at this point is a good thing, since it would require rebalancing of cards that allow the player to draw new cards, it could lead to more issues at this point.

After the initial redrawing, just let the player draw new cards by playing cards (which would require more thought, making the game a bit less random and a bit more strategic imo), nothing more.