Balance changes and short explanations.

[Barracuda88]

Some thoughts:

1. Radeyah... Why is Radeyah as OP as she is, exactly? Having no duplicates used to mean something in beta, with the blacklisting and whatnot, but since I came back it seems like mulligans are all over the place anyway and blacklisting doesn't work, and with the sheer number of cards available, what exactly is the "drawback" of having no duplicates in your deck nowadays? Same goes for Shupe, but at least Shupe is 13 supply...
2. Sabre is fine. Nerfing it based on Radeyah+ME-Waters or Radeyah+Artifact 3rd round cheese is not the way to go. Fix Radeyah instead.
3. Poison... is fine. I think the problem is people are not willing to use purify units, because only NG - and to a slightly lesser degree ST - have faction-specific (and therefore synergizing) purify bronzes. Maybe give the non-poison faction (SK, M, NR) purify golds cooldowns?
4. Falibor is insane. 7 points of meat plus 6 points of targeted removal with a joke of a trigger in current NR decks. I don't think going from 11 to 12p is going to solve this one. While we're at it, Phillipa BLIND Fury should be made random, period, and maybe raise her up to 3.
5. Vernossiel. So 11 for 12 with no removal is OP? But Falibor 13 for 12 with 6 removal is fixed? Yes, they're 3 elves, which the archetype is based on count, and are potential targets for buffs, but again, this is compensated with the fact that there are no removals. Aside from the Oak, Vernossiel is pretty much the only ST gold worth the legendary tag. If we nerf it, you better boost up some of those dwarfs.
6. Maraal is neutral. Seems fine, but a 10p might work, idk.
7. Agreed on Invocation. I don't think "Faction-Specific vs Neutral" is a good enough argument to explain why it's cheaper than Heatwave.
8. Bribery. Should banish itself on use. Will fix a lot of cheese issues.
9. Agreed on Sweers.
10. Matta is powerful, but neutral, and all support. I'd leave it as is.
11. I think 6 for Endrega Larva is too much. Maybe remove 1 armor.
12. Yghern might be OK, though 11p doesn't seem too unfair. I've never seen one "destroy" itself, so it's basically 13 for 10 right now, plus it's going to get consumed in the graveyard later for another 13.
13. Madame Luiza agreed.
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14. Scenarios: make doomed or just Epilogue: Banish Self.
15. Damien: retire this guy all together. Leader abilities are too powerful now to be reused, and with Kingslayer this is potentially a 30 point play ON TOP of your normal card points. That's insane. One way to keep him around I think is to make him renew BOTH leader abilities. That will force the other player to use their ability early and maybe too early, which will then force the NG player to decide if they should go forward with renewing or just stay with the bad timing on the other player's part. More fun, imo.
16. Freaking Mystic Echo is tough to fix. Kinda think it would make sense to say "Play a spell from graveyard unless it was already played this round," but then it would mean you basically can't use your leader ability AT ALL in Round 1. Ugh.

 

[Payus]

ME could have 2 charges and be limited to bronze ST specials(or any rarity but 6-7 prov max), think about it, it would still be good, not as fun or insane, but good enough for sure.

I can think of at least 5 combos.

 

[Barracuda88]

ME could have 2 charges and be limited to bronze ST specials(or any rarity but 6-7 prov max), think about it, it would still be good, not as fun or insane, but good enough for sure.

I can think of at least 5 combos.

2 charges with like 2-turn cooldown in between could work. You'd have Caress, Tempering, Waylay, Rebuke, Morana and Zoltan Co. Not as fun, but I guess I could live with that?

 

[Barracuda88]

Sorry, but poison isn't 'fine'. When you have some decks which can play 4 - 6 poison in a round, how do you conclude it's good? Loads of units being obliterated one after another and that's 'fine'... How many purify cards and units do you expect people to play in a deck?

Poison is ridiculous and not even consistent with real poisoning that generally kills slowly.



Phillipa is fine as is, even necessary when facing certain decks. Leave her alone.

Falibor is also OK. I don't see Falibor doing as much killing as poison, yet apparently poison is 'fine'. Again, ridiculous.

So you're going to argue against consistency of poison mechanic vs "real life" poison and then turn around and say blind Phillipa is fine "aiming", because she's necessary?

The "slowness of poison" is represented by having to play two cards to remove a unit, but really, though I don't exactly see how that's even relevant, in real life there are plenty of poisons that will kill in seconds, too.

4-6 poisons will remove 2-3 units from the board if they are all successful. The player will use 4-6 cards to remove 2-3 of your units. Falibor, meanwhile, will remove 3 units, and necessary Phillipa, potentially 3-4. Both will do so in one turn. "Load of units being obliterated" you say?

Yes. poison is harder on taller decks, so those are the decks that should stock up on purify units and cards. Everyone has access to at least 3. Giving - like I suggested in my original post - a cooldown ability to gold purify units of the "non-poison" factions will help protect the units further.

Everyone also has access to 2 bronze and a gold poison unit, so if it's as OP as you think, go ahead and stick those in your deck. There are 3 factions that have specific poison units, but unless you're running NG Scenarios, you can't win by stacking poison. I had a meme deck of ST stacked with all available poison and lock units. Went up against NR siege deck, locked and poisoned everything I possibly could. The guy essentially could use none of his normal engines, but guess what? I still lost on points. You just can't keep up.

Unless you're NG, poison is used exactly as it should be: strategic removal of key units. Just like with any other removal, you can't save ALL of your units, but unlike Thunder or Surrender or the Rockslide, you have a CHANCE against poison. You just need to tech against it, like against anything else. If I can stick a useless artifact bomb in my deck, you can stick a couple of purify units in yours. Especially since you can use them against locks, as well.

 

[Barracuda88]

Sorry, but poison, for the most part, even when bitten by a venomous snake, isn't instant death.

Phillipa, as far as I am aware, blasts several units. Granted, she has to click initially on a specific unit. It wouldn't make much odds if she activated by randomly attacking a row like certain other attacks - some of which target only one unit when it is the sole unit on the board.

Again, I rarely face Falibor, but poison is a problem with every faction. Falibor is with only one, and even then he's a bit useless if he doesn't get kill...

As for including purify cards, that's not a problem. I just don't like the fact a unit can be instantly killed - especially by a 4 point card or two.

Cyanide is instant

Phillipa can be used to remove a single tall unit right now, if it's the only unit on the board. Some people are calling for her not to be able to attack same unit twice in a row, which is an option, but alternatively I think it would make sense that she attacked the opposite row without aiming, to make the damage output a little less consistent, and to offset that, add a few points to her 1 value.

I only specifically brought up Falibor in my reply to you, because you specifically only responded to that and poison. I don't necessarily think the two can be compared directly, because one is an OP card and the other a gameplay mechanic. Funny thing is, Falibor is weaker against tall units, while poison is stronger, but even "weaker" Falibor is still 10 points.

Having a single purify card in hand effectively makes it cost the enemy 3 cards to kill that one unit, AND 3 turns, unless they are using a gold, but a gold has higher provision cost.

 

[dragoonzen]

The best fix as someone recommended is to have the neutral king Cobra card apply poison to a random unit. While NG fang card being able to directly target a unit.

 

[MysticJoey]

Poison is problematic, but this solution would bury it. Boosts can outrun poison markers, and you can purify a unit with 3/4 markers and the opponent is left with a round of nothing. This could work if poison also affects points on board though, like 1 poison = 1 point, 2 for 4, 3 for 9, 4 for 16. If strength downed to 0, destroy, if purified, restore.

Yes boosts can outrun poison but then you can do damage, also boosting makes units vulnerable to tall removal, that's why i like this idea, makes things more interesting, and poison an archetype working with other removal tools, instead of just being very strong in itself. I agree that purify can bury it tho... that's why in another topic i suggested that maybe it should be removing just one application of poison, but wasn't sure of that so i haven't mentioned it here.

 

[Payus]

Maybe we need more cards that remove poison instead of just purifying...
For example: Mahakam Ale, could boost by 4 or 3 and remove both locks and poison.
The same with other cards. That would be greatly helpfull removing poison or locks or both on units with positive statuses like defenders, shielded cards, ones with vitality left etc.

They could add it to existing cards that boost(not to all of them but to a few) and also create some new cards for it (units or specials).

BTw not all the "detoxifying" cards need to be able to remove lock as well, maybe just mahakam ale, or maybe more, the idea here is to gain a small boost and have the ability of removing poison instead of purifying. BTW purify should stay as a mechanic of course, this would be additive.

 

[Evangium]

15. Damien: retire this guy all together. Leader abilities are too powerful now to be reused, and with Kingslayer this is potentially a 30 point play ON TOP of your normal card points. That's insane. One way to keep him around I think is to make him renew BOTH leader abilities. That will force the other player to use their ability early and maybe too early, which will then force the NG player to decide if they should go forward with renewing or just stay with the bad timing on the other player's part. More fun, imo.

That would be a much better rework. However, it all depends on if CDPR is still making any pretence to have card abilities relate to the Witcher lore they own. I really don't remember much about the character in the game, other than he was supposedly extremely loyal and devoted to the Duchess. Supposedly extreme loyalty and devotion translates to 'replay a leader's ability' in Gwent. Then again, given how immemorable the character was in the game, they could pretty much rework him to anything else and it would probably fly right under the radar.

Post automatically merged: Jan 17, 2020

Maybe we need more cards that remove poison instead of just purifying...

That and more cards that gain a positive benefit from being poisoned. Things like 'if this unit is poisoned, all damage dealt this turn is redirected to this unit'; or 'if this unit is poisoned, this unit gains Deathwish: evenly distribute damage equal to this unit's power to units on the opposite row'.

 

[MysticJoey]

Some thoughts:

1. Radeyah... Why is Radeyah as OP as she is, exactly? Having no duplicates used to mean something in beta, with the blacklisting and whatnot, but since I came back it seems like mulligans are all over the place anyway and blacklisting doesn't work, and with the sheer number of cards available, what exactly is the "drawback" of having no duplicates in your deck nowadays? Same goes for Shupe, but at least Shupe is 13 supply...
2. Sabre is fine. Nerfing it based on Radeyah+ME-Waters or Radeyah+Artifact 3rd round cheese is not the way to go. Fix Radeyah instead.
3. Poison... is fine. I think the problem is people are not willing to use purify units, because only NG - and to a slightly lesser degree ST - have faction-specific (and therefore synergizing) purify bronzes. Maybe give the non-poison faction (SK, M, NR) purify golds cooldowns?
4. Falibor is insane. 7 points of meat plus 6 points of targeted removal with a joke of a trigger in current NR decks. I don't think going from 11 to 12p is going to solve this one. While we're at it, Phillipa BLIND Fury should be made random, period, and maybe raise her up to 3.
5. Vernossiel. So 11 for 12 with no removal is OP? But Falibor 13 for 12 with 6 removal is fixed? Yes, they're 3 elves, which the archetype is based on count, and are potential targets for buffs, but again, this is compensated with the fact that there are no removals. Aside from the Oak, Vernossiel is pretty much the only ST gold worth the legendary tag. If we nerf it, you better boost up some of those dwarfs.
6. Maraal is neutral. Seems fine, but a 10p might work, idk.
7. Agreed on Invocation. I don't think "Faction-Specific vs Neutral" is a good enough argument to explain why it's cheaper than Heatwave.
8. Bribery. Should banish itself on use. Will fix a lot of cheese issues.
9. Agreed on Sweers.
10. Matta is powerful, but neutral, and all support. I'd leave it as is.
11. I think 6 for Endrega Larva is too much. Maybe remove 1 armor.
12. Yghern might be OK, though 11p doesn't seem too unfair. I've never seen one "destroy" itself, so it's basically 13 for 10 right now, plus it's going to get consumed in the graveyard later for another 13.
13. Madame Luiza agreed.
.
.
14. Scenarios: make doomed or just Epilogue: Banish Self.
15. Damien: retire this guy all together. Leader abilities are too powerful now to be reused, and with Kingslayer this is potentially a 30 point play ON TOP of your normal card points. That's insane. One way to keep him around I think is to make him renew BOTH leader abilities. That will force the other player to use their ability early and maybe too early, which will then force the NG player to decide if they should go forward with renewing or just stay with the bad timing on the other player's part. More fun, imo.
16. Freaking Mystic Echo is tough to fix. Kinda think it would make sense to say "Play a spell from graveyard unless it was already played this round," but then it would mean you basically can't use your leader ability AT ALL in Round 1. Ugh.

1. Well you are mixing two topics here, i agree that having no duplicates doesn't mean much in a lot of decks nowadays, because cdpr created a ton of good value bronzes that don't need any synergy between them to achieve this value.
As for radeyah, the fact that you can use the stratagem whenever you want makes certain combinations possible, allowing her to get huge amounts of value, exceeding the i assume intended ceiling by a lot.
2. Sabre isn't fine. It's by far the best one. Always giving you more value than the other ones (and allowing you to get aelirenn very easly but im completely fine with that, makes it better in one certain deck as it should, instead of being the best option for all of them).
3. Poison is terrible. Your opponent has to have an answer or you will get possibly more value than from any other ability, and even when he does, you are not losing anything, you play 4 for 4 fangs of empire, he purifies with 5 for 5 vrihedd sappers, even tho he had the perfect answer, he didn't gain anything. Even against the neutral 3 for 4 he gains ONE POINT (assuming your armor won't come into play), when having the perfect answer.
4. He is very strong. He may get 13 points of value, but he can also get 10, especially in a short round. We can also make him a 6, so his floor is 9, making him weaker in short rounds, but then he has to stay at 11, and i prefer strong cards being more expensive so a player can't pack all of them into one deck.
5. She might be fine. That's why my suggestion was one point, which is the bare minimum of a nerf. I just don't want her to be played in every deck. But she isn't in mystic echo harmony so maybe that's fine.
6. How is him being a neutral card an argument for him... that's even worse.
8. Bribery is being played in every deck. Stefan isn't an issue, and would be even less of a threat if bribery wasn't OP.
10. Same as maraal, being neutral doesn't fix anything, on a contrary, you don't want OP neutral cards running rampant.
11. 6 is completely fine, i would still run it in every monsters deck.

 

[Gyg]

3. Poison is terrible. Your opponent has to have an answer or you will get possibly more value than from any other ability, and even when he does, you are not losing anything, you play 4 for 4 fangs of empire, he purifies with 5 for 5 vrihedd sappers, even tho he had the perfect answer, he didn't gain anything. Even against the neutral 3 for 4 he gains ONE POINT (assuming your armor won't come into play), when having the perfect answer.

I think you hit The crux of problem. Poison doesn't loose tempo when countered as its counter has poor points/provisions ratio. One solution is to lower power on every poison unit substantionally.

 

[hachri80]

Poison is problematic because it got so much cheap support with the latest expansion. Before that almost no one played poison because it was too unreliable. Maybe we really just need more purify to break the dominance.

I also like the idea of units having certain immunities. Especially Monsters could have units that can't be poisened. Or that you can't give any statuses to them but you can attack them.

 

[Payus]

I think you hit The crux of problem. Poison doesn't loose tempo when countered as its counter has poor points/provisions ratio. One solution is to lower power on every poison unit substantionally.

Another is , as I said, make some boosting cards that remove poison but do not purify. The example was mahakam ale, boosting for less but adding poison removal. That would add a bit of tempo + remove poison, you still play suboptimally but the oponent plan is thwarted

 

[Evangium]

Maybe it's just confirmation bias on my part, but Bribery does seem to have a rather high affinity for creating gold units. Just had another game where my opponent managed to create two golds, Vlodimir and Morkvarg: HoS. Obviously one of them was marginally useful to my opponent and the other extremely game-changing.... Not bad for a card that says 'Create a unit from your opponent's starting deck', where that deck has 5 gold units and 20 bronze units. I figure it must only count each unique instance of a unit, rather than pick one out of 25.

 

[Raziel_888]

A new keyword to remove all negative status could be employed then. Something like 'cleanse', to remove bleeding, poison, doomed and lock. It should be a bit more expensive than purify.

I think the best solution for poison would actually be to increase the options in each faction for double effect cards, like Ida, Fake Ciri, Queen of the night or cupbearer. Those are the best and would make tech less situational. Use cards that are underwhelming or very specific and give them another row specific ability to purify or remove armor or bleed or vitality or shield etc...
Dandelion Vainglory, Frenzied D'Ao (could remove armor), Abaya, Jotun, Ceallach (could purify ennemy row), Dethmold, Coodcoodak (choose between purify adjacent units or an enemy unit), Eils, Hattori (order ranged: play an artifact from graveyard, deploy melee: purify a unit, kinda like the dryad), Djenge, Giant Boar, Flamminica, Draig, Tunnel Drill or Tamara Strenger are all examples of cards with a very specific ability that are rarely used because of the chance they fail on giving value. Another very specific ability could give them more versatility and would hinder deckbuilding options less.