Balance Changes - November 2023

+
Well this was a interesting turn of events. What is funny is Molegions post about the top 15 cards that was in line to get a change. If we had 15 brackets, several more NG cards would get buffed including battle stations, Torres, Serrit on provisions and Philippe van Moorlehem on power. Calveit was on both the power nerf and buff section. The people who think that more brackets would have changed anything regards to NG should rethink. Unfair nerfs will have unintended consequences in the form of pushback.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gwent/comments/17vuys0
I actually think set rotation in some form like in magic the gathering would be better than the BC solution. Then we could eg. have the gwent base set + 2 or 3 other sets to work with.
 
Last edited:
So, instead of leaving alone what works and buffing what doesnt we must make already viable decks thrash like mentioned "Rat Swarm" or "SK healing"?. You havent named a SINGLE average deck. This is utter garbage, that plays only at 2300 or ranks. This is'nt AVERAGE, this is deck that must be buffed to became at least viable. Average is something like White Frost - deck that isnttop-tier, but with skill and knowledge you can compete with it.

Well, bad news there is quite many decent decks here. Deatwhish, by such standards, must get nerf treatment. As well as White Frost, Warriors, Pirates (compass-less), Bounty and many others.
Thats rather strange aproach.

Why dont we leave alone decent tier-2 decks and just buff others to their level, meanwile from time to time adjusting real tier-1 decks?

Community butchered tier-2 deck, not "brought deserved nerfs to top-tier".
Post automatically merged:


Look at Gwent-data yourself.
You will see that NG playrate was ABSURDLY high pre-nerf, but winrate was quite low. So pre-nerf NG was somewhat problematic.
But post-nerf NG got average playrayte and lowest winrate which is porblematic.

1. These stats are not from CDPR and therefore are not official numbers. The owner states this on the site, that there is no affiliation with CDPR.
2. The owner declares on the site that the data being pulled only represent pro rank. That is obviously not representative of the entire game.

Don't just pass around information out of context and state them as fact when they aren't. Some ppl actually will read the fine print.
Post automatically merged:

I think there is one major oversight in most of this Balance Council Discussion -- and certainly in the voting so far. That is failure to look ahead beyond the "next" meta. Given the structure of Balance Council, as long as there are sufficient votes, there will basically be one nerf for every buff. Thus, for any deck to be made better, another deck must be made worse. NG status decks being unable to compete in the top meta is not justification for reverting fully justifiable nerfs -- what would justify the buffs would be the deck being noncompetitive with average decks -- at least those that are well constructed. Clearly NG status decks do not perform badly against the likes of ST traps, SY spendthrift (decks based upon Casimir, Evaline, and other cards that benefit from spending all coins every turn), MO Rat Swarm, SK Healing, bonded Bandits, NG mages, NR Witchers, etc. If NG status (and other recently nerfed decks) are no longer top meta, fix that by nerfing better meta decks -- not by burning boosts that are desperately needed by literally dozens of archetypes that are in much worse shape.

Before every vote, we should ask what the game will likely look like in 6 months if these votes go through. What I've seen from Balance Council so far suggests a game that will be virtually unchanged. This is OK only if you truly believe the current state of Gwent the the best it could possibly be.
That is the underlying issue with NG players. They expect NG to be able to beat every deck in a matchup. That isn't balance. I acknowledge that a Wild Hunt deck with suffer against Dwarves or a greedy MO deck will not do well against poison. Every deck shouldn't win most of the time against every deck but that is what the devs created. They allowed NG to have an answer to every deck and the players have become complacent to the point where they can't be bothered to actually strategize to win a match. It needs to be easy.
 
First time like for several years i see someone who disregards Gwentdata.
It's fine for Lerio in his analysis and not fine for some random guy. Great.
There is nothing to discuss. For entire gwentdata live-time it was used to analyze current meta tendenecy by each and every player, yet now it is irrelevant cause "not official". Fine.

Guess, experience of some random person matters more.

As for second: at RANKS anything is playable and literally ANYTHING is beatable. To estimate decks power by ranking perfomance is simpe not working. Cause due to immense number of mistakes typicall new player making due to lack of knowledge and experience winrate at ranks tell only about how easy deck to pilot for player and to read nad counter for opponent.


[...]
Post automatically merged:

Merc and Lerio got some patch analisys, by the way.
Lerion one this time shows some graphs, yet no so interesting. Merc's one got quite amoung of materials to think about.

Here it goes:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The faction will probably still be one of the weaker ones in terms of power,
looooooooooooooooooooooooool it is sooooo weak that everyone keep spaming it, i dont think we are playing same game, if NG players lose that much it's bc they play only NG and have no idea how others factions archetype work to face it and counter it
Post automatically merged:

How convenient there is one.


View attachment 11373769
this look soooooo fake, from where did u bring those stat ?
even if it's true it should stay like that, we had enough of NG
also dont forget that the best players do not play NG
Post automatically merged:

beside the NG buff, how did NR siege senario became 13 provision ? please bring it back to 14, it's one of most stongest sénario why put it costing less than the others ?
 
Last edited:
at RANKS anything is playable and literally ANYTHING is beatable
Why are we reverting balance council changes then?


mistakes typicall new player making due to lack of knowledge and experience
Of course, but new players are important for eg longevity of the game, making mistakes means learning the game.
New players have to win 50 ranked games now to be able to vote in BC, if thats fair or the right way to go i don't know but calling someone pepega doesn't help in any way.
Post automatically merged:

beside the NG buff, how did NR siege senario became 13 provision ? please bring it back to 14, it's one of most stongest sénario why put it costing less than the others ?
(y)(y)
 
looooooooooooooooooooooooool it is sooooo weak that everyone keep spaming it, i dont think we are playing same game, if NG players lose that much it's bc they play only NG and have no idea how others factions archetype work to face it and counter it
Post automatically merged:


this look soooooo fake, from where did u bring those stat ?
even if it's true it should stay like that, we had enough of NG
also dont forget that the best players do not play NG
Post automatically merged:

beside the NG buff, how did NR siege senario became 13 provision ? please bring it back to 14, it's one of most stongest sénario why put it costing less than the others ?
Wow, great argument, I'm fully convinced now. Turns out NG is only weak because the players are stupid +.+
 
Why are we reverting balance council changes then?
I'm not sure i understand your question.
if you talking about last patch - obviously, because balance was screwed, some nerfs was not deserved and whole course of action of first balance council was at least questionable.
Why this question raised in context of ranks?


Of course, but new players are important for eg longevity of the game, making mistakes means learning the game.
New players have to win 50 ranked games now to be able to vote in BC, if thats fair or the right way to go i don't know but calling someone pepega doesn't help in any way.
Perhaps there is some misunderstanding. Sure, i was rude - somewhat tired from long and fruitless discussion about council everywhere. Often initiated by player without any argumentation going further than biases and personal frustration.

But whole point isnt "leave all voting to big boys, haha", but "there is no meaning to balance something according to ranked perfomance: lack of experience and mistakes is greater factor here than decks/arcehtypes strenght". Any ranked statistic can be seen only in context of improving quality of life for players (which is quite important, so i'm not against some tweaks and nerfs to NG - faction was omnipresent and it can be frustrating for newbies).
But overall balance in long perspective is more important than quality of life, cause good and polished balance actually leads to diverse and interesting meta. And balance-wise previous patch was a pure disaster. Reverting some (not ALL) nerfs are, actually, good for game balance-wise.
In terms of balance pro-ladder statistics is much more meaningufll: more experienced players tend to make lesser mistakes and decks/archetypes gets some real tests.


This whole topic is quite hard for me - language issues (english isn't even my 2nd or 3rd language). So instead of long metabreakdown, adressing statistic and making complex argumentation lines, alas, i must reffer to already existing analyses by someone like Lerio.
 
I'm not sure i understand your question.
if you talking about last patch - obviously, because balance was screwed, some nerfs was not deserved and whole course of action of first balance council was at least questionable.
Why this question raised in context of ranks?
I misunderstood and then tried to be funny and failed miserably, my apologies.

Yes due to NG-faction hate at the first council NG was (a bit?) overnerfed, now it has logically been reverted (mostly) as a reaction. I'm sure once purged out of our systems we can look at BC more objectively. We can all play all the factions i mean, if you cannot beat them ..etc.

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding. Sure, i was rude - somewhat tired from long and fruitless discussion about council everywhere. Often initiated by player without any argumentation going further than biases and personal frustration.

That's okay, we all have our moods. What was that saying again, i'm paraphrasing: 'to get rude is human, to stay rude is of the devil'.

But whole point isnt "leave all voting to big boys, haha", but "there is no meaning to balance something according to ranked perfomance: lack of experience and mistakes is greater factor here than decks/arcehtypes strenght". Any ranked statistic can be seen only in context of improving quality of life for players (which is quite important, so i'm not against some tweaks and nerfs to NG - faction was omnipresent and it can be frustrating for newbies).
But overall balance in long perspective is more important than quality of life, cause good and polished balance actually leads to diverse and interesting meta. And balance-wise previous patch was a pure disaster. Reverting some (not ALL) nerfs are, actually, good for game balance-wise.
In terms of balance pro-ladder statistics is much more meaningufll: more experienced players tend to make lesser mistakes and decks/archetypes gets some real tests.

Making a more objective decision based on stats of ranked performances, to avoid bias by most of the new player's mistakes.
To keep balance between decks, to avoid tier 0 decks and to avoid certain decks falling below tier 3. In the same time also reviving dead cards/leader/archetypes which won't show up in those stats. Without excluding new players. Without losing 'fun'.



This whole topic is quite hard for me - language issues (english isn't even my 2nd or 3rd language). So instead of long metabreakdown, adressing statistic and making complex argumentation lines, alas, i must reffer to already existing analyses by someone like Lerio.

Why reinvent the wheel? Using existing stats is fine, we can all check these and have our opinion. Your English seems fine sir, not even 3rd language? A man of culture!
 
So, instead of leaving alone what works and buffing what doesnt we must make already viable decks thrash like mentioned "Rat Swarm" or "SK healing"?. You havent named a SINGLE average deck. This is utter garbage, that plays only at 2300 or ranks. This is'nt AVERAGE, this is deck that must be buffed to became at least viable. Average is something like White Frost - deck that isnttop-tier, but with skill and knowledge you can compete with it.

Well, bad news there is quite many decent decks here. Deatwhish, by such standards, must get nerf treatment. As well as White Frost, Warriors, Pirates (compass-less), Bounty and many others.
Thats rather strange aproach.

Why dont we leave alone decent tier-2 decks and just buff others to their level, meanwile from time to time adjusting real tier-1 decks?

Community butchered tier-2 deck, not "brought deserved nerfs to top-tier".
I don't even know where to begin addressing all the faulty (or at least opinion/perspective based) assumptions.

First the "balance" we have now is not working. It may be that there are 5 or 6 top decks able to "compete" -- at least on a rock-paper-scissors basis -- more or less evenly. There may be another ten decks or so close enough to potentially be playable. But this leaves out -- and will always leave out -- the remaining 10,000 well constructed and potentially interesting decks. Players who value creative and original deck building, players who value variety, players who don't accept that over half the matches are decided before a single card is played must either sacrifice play they enjoy or be relegated to low, non-competitive ranks.

Second, none of the archetypes I listed are "utter garbage". It's not like I am proposing we balance decks like ST Soldiers or SY beasts that have no coherence or real theme or that we boost decks like Aerondight which reward bad play. I don't suggest that we need poorly designed decks like Vyppers that rely on one card and fall apart when that card is countered, nor do I suggest decks like all in thrive that are pure greed and no removal. I don't suggest decks like pre-Uroboros traps that were totally uninteractive. I carefully did not list binary disasters like Imperial Practitioners; i don't even advocate for decks like pure pointslam that some find boring. The only reason I see that you would refer to my examples as "utter garbage" is that they are relatively weak -- they can't win. On that I totally agree. But why can't they win? Not that they are inherently ill-conceived. Not that they are bad for the game. They simply don't have enough cards with enough points and they don't have the base support to ever play against competition that can repeatedly spew 20 + point cards. And the obvious, the only, solution is to nerf the 20+ point cards.

Finally, you act like tier-2 decks are some weak, whimpering step-sister to the meta that deserve no thought of nerfs. Nothing could be further from the truth. From my perspective, ALL the tiered decks contain numerous disproportionately powered cards. And none are "weak". Yes, Deathwish, Frost, Warriors, Pirates, Bounty, etc. are problems. Yes, they need nerfs. If you disbelieve this, simply try playing them with any of the 10,000 potentially worthy decks not on the tiered lists.

Regrettably, so long as players keep bickering over whether the likes of Vilgefortz should be 9 or 10 provisions, there will never be enough boosts left for the decks that really need them. And the mindset that tier two decks bear no imbalance will forever restrict the meta to the current handful of OP decks.
 
Yea I'm uninstalling until the next balance change, then I'll try to get my votes in to revert these reverts and that's a big IF. If this is going to be the new normal, a constant tug of war then I may as well leave the game entirely. The devs needed to have cleaned up the game before handing it over and they absolutely failed to do that. the Balance Council was already looking bleak without any ability to rework cards completely but adding this....there are better things to do with our time.
 
Last edited:
Balance Council will be like a ping pong game. Nerf NG -> buff NG -> Nerf NG -> buff NG (put in the loop).
Not only NG, if here had been as many changes as in the first council, even cards like Viy (!) would have been returned to its previous state before the first community patch, I think it was Molegion who twittered something like this. Looks like there are roughly three groups of players: One that actually wants to create objective balance, the second one will vote for what they SUBJECTIVELY think is balance, and the last one consists of troll voters. This whole balance council is actually a very interesting psychological and behavioral experiment, unfortunately at the cost of a - once - great game.
 
Some would say the psychological and behavioral experiment started much earlier, back when they added NG to the game, and the results have not been great. So to me, the Balance Council has not made anything that was "once great" bad, or even provided an unexpected outcome, though to be fair, after the first go I WAS surprised. Everything's back to normal now, though :beer:
 
This whole balance council is actually a very interesting psychological and behavioral experiment, unfortunately at the cost of a - once - great game.
I think many ppl predicted this would happen, myself included. It's just human nature. Ppl like having power and if you have a faction that can essentially answer anything from any faction then it stands to reason they will not want to cede that power. That's true in most situations and the ppl following a lot of these pro streamers are young kids. If I had a dollar for every NG player who starts to taunt as soon as the match started because he feels assured in his victory and who can blame him, the devs themselves relied on this toxic mindset. They deliberately made the faction that way to generate frustrating conversations. It's short term thinking for short term rewards.
 
I don't know about that. I think many ppl already said this would happen, myself included. No experiment needed, its just human nature. Ppl like having power and if you have a faction that can essentially answer anything from any faction then it stands to reason they will not want to cede that power. That's true in most situations and the ppl following a lot of these pro streamers are young kids. If I had a dollar for every NG player who starts to taunt as soon as the match started because he feels assured in his victory and who can blame him, the devs themselves relied on this toxic mindset. They deliberately made the faction that way to generate frustrating conversations. It's short term thinking for short term rewards.
Well, experiments don't have to prove anything, they can also be used to demonstrate stuff which has already been proven or expected. And some players need the idea of acticely playing against the opponent (definitely including me), and not just going for some sort of auto chess aka typical NR or MO decks. I've never had that taunt harassment problem with NG players in particular, and I've played other factions as well. People have to accept that NG is probably one of the most defining parts of the game as many players favour the interactive playstile that comes with it. I loved the Oakcritters and Great Oak buffs. Even though they're nothing major for now, buffing dead cards would be so much more useful than constantly killing and reviving complete archetypes or even whole factions with the excuse of "balance in power". As soon as dead cards and archetypes get more exciting, there'll be more variety. But as long as this pro and con NG war continues and people continue arguing whether the majority of NG players are bad people or not, there's absolutely zero progress to be made.
 
Wow, great argument, I'm fully convinced now. Turns out NG is only weak because the players are stupid +.+
honestly yeah, when i face NG i just drop potential fake strong card and wait for them to kill it or lock it, then start playing my key cards, sometiemes they have just to much, also it is not weak, NG is been the most played faction 60% of facing it's NG it wouldnt be played that much if it was weak
also it's the faction with the most viable archétypes, in other factions theres one or two viable decks to play, with NG all archetypes are good, do u know why ? well strong cards with low prov cost, almost no card conditions, lot of locks and control, i play all factions and i can tell NG is the most easier for me to play, it's one of the factions that i play the less but it's the second with numbers of win, [...] people wont be playing it that much if it was weak, but u will never agree as like all NG players, i can give only one advice, if u think NG is weak why not play other faction ? lol u will fastly realise how wrong u are
Post automatically merged:

Wow, great argument, I'm fully convinced now. Turns out NG is only weak because the players are stupid +.+
also i'm fully conviced of that when i see lot of players having over 2000 win with NG and less than 200 with all the others factions combined. also as we keep facing same NG decks again and again even stupids will learn how to face it, others archetypes are being played much less
and their weakness is known less, i dont know for u but for me when i face something i dont know it will make it more hard to face it that's just simple logic
 
Last edited:
So, instead of leaving alone what works and buffing what doesnt we must make already viable decks thrash like mentioned "Rat Swarm" or "SK healing"?. You havent named a SINGLE average deck. This is utter garbage, that plays only at 2300 or ranks. This is'nt AVERAGE, this is deck that must be buffed to became at least viable. Average is something like White Frost - deck that isnttop-tier, but with skill and knowledge you can compete with it.

Well, bad news there is quite many decent decks here. Deatwhish, by such standards, must get nerf treatment. As well as White Frost, Warriors, Pirates (compass-less), Bounty and many others.
Thats rather strange aproach.

Why dont we leave alone decent tier-2 decks and just buff others to their level, meanwile from time to time adjusting real tier-1 decks?

Community butchered tier-2 deck, not "brought deserved nerfs to top-tier".
Post automatically merged:


Look at Gwent-data yourself.
You will see that NG playrate was ABSURDLY high pre-nerf, but winrate was quite low. So pre-nerf NG was somewhat problematic.
But post-nerf NG got average playrayte and lowest winrate which is porblematic.

1 month is not enough amount of data, maybe is the HUGE population of NG players just whining about the changes and refusing to play....
In statistics, there is multiple ways to capture consistent data to confirm a trend. Assume something with just one month of players crying for the nerfs is not the reality of data.....
 
honestly yeah, when i face NG i just drop potential fake strong card and wait for them to kill it or lock it, then start playing my key cards, sometiemes they have just to much, also it is not weak, NG is been the most played faction 60% of facing it's NG it wouldnt be played that much if it was weak
also it's the faction with the most viable archétypes, in other factions theres one or two viable decks to play, with NG all archetypes are good, do u know why ? well strong cards with low prov cost, almost no card conditions, lot of locks and control, i play all factions and i can tell NG is the most easier for me to play, it's one of the factions that i play the less but it's the second with numbers of win, [...] people wont be playing it that much if it was weak, but u will never agree as like all NG players, i can give only one advice, if u think NG is weak why not play other faction ? lol u will fastly realise how wrong u are
Post automatically merged:


also i'm fully conviced of that when i see lot of players having over 2000 win with NG and less than 200 with all the others factions combined. also as we keep facing same NG decks again and again even stupids will learn how to face it, others archetypes are being played much less
and their weakness is known less, i dont know for u but for me when i face something i dont know it will make it more hard to face it that's just simple logic
Yeah, so much wrong stuff and allegations I can't possibly deal with it, also I don't want to. I have played and AM playing other factions. And it looks like I could write this a thousand times and still someone will call me a "typical NG player who will never agree to anything": Very dynamic, fun and interactive playstile plus almost always viable (as ALL factions should be!!) equals a high playrate.
 
honestly yeah, when i face NG i just drop potential fake strong card and wait for them to kill it or lock it, then start playing my key cards, sometiemes they have just to much, also it is not weak, NG is been the most played faction 60% of facing it's NG it wouldnt be played that much if it was weak

Post automatically merged:
The problem with that approach is how many "fake strong cards" do you have? they can spam the same bronze lock card multiple times. By the 3rd or 4th card you have lost the cards you need to set up the board, many factions need cards to set up a strategy and that's why everyone is being pushed into these brain dead power creep decks because what other option is there? Once you have exhausted all their locks they can now move on to the several cheap removal options they have or just copy your now strong cards. You'll also notice this is one of the few factions that doesn't need Oneiromancy. I can't recall the last time I've seen a NG deck with Oneiromancy. They don't ever need it because they've been given the tools to remove any useless cards and only draw what they need. For every other faction playing devotion has a draw back but not in NG. We have cards like Torres that allows them to copy your strongest cards and then thins their own deck so they can remove any trash cards for a perfect draw because Battlestations wasn't enough. It's ridiculous

The strongest mechanic in any competitive game...is knowing what your opponent will play next. The fact that the devs thought that giving one faction this massive advantage without pricing it accordingly is just bonkers. No one here can argue that seeing into their opponents deck would not give them an advantage in any matchup. You now know how they will play, you can immediately guess the archetype their deck is built around and how to counter it. Such a massive advantage should not exist in the game or it should be very costly.


The game is unbalanced by this one faction because it is quite literally dictating what cards players are allowed to play. You are right in that there are some NG players who don't know the game, we can thank those ppl because they lower the win rate for the faction and help mask the issue. But even those players you see in Rank 0 so how did they get there? Auto pilot decks don't require much strategy.
 
Last edited:
The problem with that approach is how many "fake strong cards" do you have? they can spam the same bronze lock card multiple times. By the 3rd or 4th card you have lost the cards you need to set up the board, many factions need cards to set up a strategy and that's why everyone is being pushed into these brain dead power creep decks because what other option is there? Once you have exhausted all their locks they can now move on to the several cheap removal options they have or just copy your now strong cards. You'll also notice this is one of the few factions that doesn't need Oneiromancy. I can't recall the last time I've seen a NG deck with Oneiromancy. They don't ever need it because they've been given the tools to remove any useless cards and only draw what they need. For every other faction playing devotion has a draw back but not in NG. We have cards like Torres that allows them to copy your strongest cards and then thins their own deck so they can remove any trash cards for a perfect draw because Battlestations wasn't enough. It's ridiculous

The game is unbalanced by this one faction because it is quite literally dictating what cards players are allowed to play. You are right in that there are some NG players who don't know the game, we can thank those ppl because they lower the win rate for the faction and help mask the issue. But even those players you see in Rank 0 so how did they get there? Auto pilot decks don't require much strategy.
Dont forget fearcat, deadman tongue, that other bronze wich uses a tactics and draw a Card.

The other bronze wich oputs The card you want on top of deck in a few turns
 
Top Bottom