[Balance Suggestion] Some of the Strongest Cards of this Meta

[Alch1mist]

[Balance Suggestion] Some of the Strongest Cards of this Meta

Wardancer

Strength 3.
Whenever you Swap this unit, play it on a random row. Ambush: Flip over on turn end.

It’s currently the strongest carry-over in the game, mainly because it’s not played the round before the unit comes to use to block a dry pass, unlike most carry-overs, so you cannot counter it with the usual tools, in addition the card is also used to thin, making it too strong for a bronze.
The change should keep its thinning aspect while putting points on the board, but prevent the card from being used to block a dry pass. Wardancer should be more akin to Daerlan Soldier with the change, but unlike to latter doesn’t necessarily need another card to trigger its effect, explaining why it’s only a 3 strength unit. Moreover this change should also be an indirect improvement on Braenn, as she’d have potentially three more cards to boost, and other cards like Iorveth will also boost Wardancer, making the latter stronger.

Dimun Pirate Captain

Strength 1
Play a different Bronze Dimun unit from your deck. If the unit you pulled form your deck is destroyed, then banish the Dimun Pirate Captain who played it.

Dimun Pirate Captain doesn’t really have any kind of counters, unlike other bronze tutors in the game, for instance most bronze tutors necessitate one card on the board/graveyard before being able to tutor the same card from your deck, which means if the card you want to pull from your deck is removed from the board before you can tutor the other, or if the card you want is not in your hand to begin with, then you cannot use your tutor as efficiently as you wished. Dimun Pirate Captain has none of those limitations, but instead is limited to which kind of cards it can pull from, bronze Dimun units, but this isn’t really a limitation as decks playing Dimun Pirate Captain will have essentially Dimun units in them, allowing you to directly pull from your deck without limitations.
The change will keep this strength, but can be countered now as Dimun Pirate Captain will be banished if the unit pulled by the card is destroyed, which will deny Sigrdrifa/Restore, and also remove Dimun Pirate Captain from the board.

Skjall

Strength 5
Play a random Bronze or Silver non-Agent Cursed unit from your deck.

Outside of cursed decks Skjall is mainly used in combination with Hym to tutor Udalryk, which reduces the value of this card advantage spy to 8 strength in one turn, or 5 strength if used alongside Hym, which considerably soften the drawback of playing a card advantage spy, while also thinning your deck for the price of having your hand bricked for time to time. The only card advantage tutors in the game should be non-leader golds, as it takes the slot of a gold card, a more viable slot than silver’s, only to have the option to tutor while softening (less) card advantage spies, in addition of Alzur's Double–Cross which isn’t going to soften the strength of the card advantage spy, but on the contrary give more points to your opponent.

Brouver Hoog

Strength 4
Play a Silver non-Agent unit or a Bronze Dwarf from your deck.

Similarly to Skjall we’re talking about a card that can potentially be used to tutor and soften a card advantage spy, in that case reducing the strength of Yaevinn to 9 strength in one turn, nevertheless Brouver Hoog is a leader contrary to silver or gold cards used for the same purpose, which means Brouver Hoog is always going to be available to pull Yaevinn, no matter what you have in hand, and in consequence you’ll always be able to play your card advantage spy, giving too much consistency to it.

Dun Banner

Strength 4
If you are losing by more than 23 on turn start, Summon this unit.

Unlike the two cards above this bronze unit isn’t used to tutor a card advantage spy, but instead is only used to soften Thaler while thinning, reducing Thaler to 1 strength, or 3 strength if played by Alzur's Double–Cross. It’s currently rather easy to trigger this card’s ability, you either have to play Thaler while being down by 8 points, or being down by 6 points (with Alzur's Double–Cross), which isn’t very hard at the beginning of a round with low tempo cards.
With the change this will have to go to being down 10 points, or 8 points (with Alzur's Double–Cross), making this combination less consistent. It might make Dun Banner too weak, as they’re more likely to brick your hand unlike Brouver Hoog or Skjall, but they’re currently a tool rather easy to use in order to abuse from Thaler, and this change will keep their safe guard role against huge plays from your opponent.

There are currently too many ways to reduce the threat of card advantage spies for the player who plays them, and card advantage spies being very powerful it makes abusing them through those secondary cards way easier.

Half-Elf Hunter

Strength 6
Spawn a Doomed copy of this unit with 5 strength.

Half-Elf Hunter is slightly too strong right now, with its two bodies it makes Vrihedd Vanguard more efficient, and with its 12 strength it makes for a good tempo for what is basically a set up cards for your Vrihedd Vanguard, and unlike Bearmasters which are split 1/11, making them potentially vulnerable to Scorch/Igni or cards like Vandergrift, Half-Elf Hunters are only going to be countered by direct damage, and not a lot of units can directly deal 6 damage.

Elven Scout

Strength 1
Create a Bronze Elf unit that is not in your starting deck, currently on the board, or in the graveyard.

This change will prevent the Elven Scout from creating several time a strong engine during the whole game, moreover being restricted by elf units will reduce the pool of cards it can pull from. It’s still going to be a strong card to swarm the board with elves, potentially stronger as you won’t have any more dwarfs.

Slave Driver

Strength 1
Create a Bronze unit from your opponent's starting deck. After 3 turns, deal one damage to the created card, doesn’t repeat.

The ability to play your opponent’s deck with 1 more point is very powerful, though the creation can sometimes be pretty bad with cards like Dun Banner, Foglet, so on and so forth.
The change will still keep this slightly better tempo for 3 turns, which means you can time your pass according to the timer on your Slave Drivers in order to keep this advantage, otherwise you will lose 1 point, in addition Slave Drivers are still going to be very strong against low synergy engine decks, and few other cards such as Sage.

Winch

Silver
Create a Bronze Northern Realms Machine. Boost it by 3.

Winch being a bronze mean you can use it three times, four with Triss: Telekinesis, which increases the chances to get multiple time the same engine, Reinforced Ballista or Battering Ram being the most profitable, in return making Nenneke/Henselt too strong as you’re almost guaranteed to pull three Reinforced Ballista or Battering Ram through Henselt, and potentially more if you’re lucky enough. Moreover the machines you’ll create are going to become stronger with Siege Masters, so if you create a Ballista, which is a great counter against some swarm decks, you’ll be able to counter them efficiently thanks to Siege Masters, even though you didn’t tech against swarm but only created one unit.
The change will reduce this risk, while making the three pull from Henselt less consistent.

Ointment

Resurrect a Bronze unit with 5 power or less, add the Doomed category to it.

It shouldn’t impact too much Alchemy, but adds a bit of needed limitations to resurrections.

Runestones and Black Blood should be limited to Arena until they're changed to include less high-roll options, or reworked entirely.

 

[Pruny]

Create should show only 2cards in ranked if cdpr dont want to remove it.

 

[Hellsmoke77]

Wardancer. One Morkvarg or Olgierd and it is usless unless it's buffed. If it is buffed than it took more setup than just dropping Olgierd or Morkvarg. Also it's 3 points, any other carryover that sticks beats it. I haven't seen one suggestion made that will keep wardancer in play, literally every suggestion made by players on this forum thus far would completely kill the card. This shows me these suggestions come from non ST players who simply want the card out of the way.

Even without being able to drypass against ST they aren't t1. The Brouver spy abuse is an exploit that needs fixing but once that's fixed what is left for ST? They will have no decks to reach the top ranks with. It's hard enough now even with Brouver and Wardancer.

I'm aware Brouver is t1..barely. My point was I don't count him because he's broken and on borrowed time. Once him and wardancer are patched ST as a whole is completely in the gutter.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Where are vipers?

 

[Bleach25]

Wardancer. One Morkvarg or Olgierd and it is usless unless it's buffed. If it is buffed than it took more setup than just dropping Olgierd or Morkvarg. Also it's 3 points, any other carryover that sticks beats it. I haven't seen one suggestion made that will keep wardancer in play, literally every suggestion made by players on this forum thus far would completely kill the card. This shows me these suggestions come from non ST players who simply want the card out of the way.

Even without being able to drypass against ST they aren't t1. The Brouver spy abuse is an exploit that needs fixing but once that's fixed what is left for ST? They will have no decks to reach the top ranks with. It's hard enough now even with Brouver and Wardancer.

I'm aware Brouver is t1..barely. My point was I don't count him because he's broken and on borrowed time. Once him and wardancer are patched ST as a whole is completely in the gutter.

Ok but should we do, then? Just let Broken Hoog be broken? Perhaps the faction just needs some more attention from the developers after the second inevitable nerf will happen.

 

[time_drainer]

This shows me these suggestions come from non ST players who simply want the card out of the way.

I'm an ST-MO player and want them out of the way, preferably along with Morkvarg and Olgierd or any other carryover with no or minimal counters to mess with dry-pass.

Even without being able to drypass against ST they aren't t1. The Brouver spy abuse is an exploit that needs fixing but once that's fixed what is left for ST? They will have no decks to reach the top ranks with. It's hard enough now even with Brouver and Wardancer.
I'm aware Brouver is t1..barely. My point was I don't count him because he's broken and on borrowed time. Once him and wardancer are patched ST as a whole is completely in the gutter.

Same thing peope said about ST, when dwarfs got nerfed. The reason nobody else plays other ST decks than Brouver spy-base, is because it's ridicously broken. And the reason nobody played it before last patch, because dwarfs were even more broken. Once it's out of the way I'm pretty sure some new ST deck will rise, because I think it's still gonna be the strongest faction along with SK.

But to be fair when they kill Brouver spy abuse, they should also kill Henselt spy abuse, and Skellige spy abuse (or dare to hope CA spies themselves as otherwise it's only a question of time till some new spy abuse deck arises). Cause you have a point, decks without spy abuse mechanic are currently in a great disadvantage against decks with one.

(Also to be fair currently it's not "barely" t1. We're talking about the deck that has the best win rate on the highest MMR tier and was consistently in top3 since last patch.)

As for Half-elfs, Scouts and Drivers I think all of them need further nerfs along with Bearmasters.

 

[iamthedave]

Wardancer. One Morkvarg or Olgierd and it is usless unless it's buffed. If it is buffed than it took more setup than just dropping Olgierd or Morkvarg. Also it's 3 points, any other carryover that sticks beats it. I haven't seen one suggestion made that will keep wardancer in play, literally every suggestion made by players on this forum thus far would completely kill the card. This shows me these suggestions come from non ST players who simply want the card out of the way.

Even without being able to drypass against ST they aren't t1. The Brouver spy abuse is an exploit that needs fixing but once that's fixed what is left for ST? They will have no decks to reach the top ranks with. It's hard enough now even with Brouver and Wardancer.

I'm aware Brouver is t1..barely. My point was I don't count him because he's broken and on borrowed time. Once him and wardancer are patched ST as a whole is completely in the gutter.

You can make similar arguments for every T1 deck.

Henselt is only t1 because of Thaler into Dun Banner

Skellige is only t1 because of Bran into Mork/Olgi and Hym into Skjall into Uldaryk

Every T1 deck uses the same tricks. It's uncertain that those tricks are the reason that they're T1 though. Even without wardancer the Brouver deck is strong. The problem with Wardancer compared to the other carry over, however, is there's absolutely no counterplay or interaction. Mork can be banished or locked, as can Olgierd, or he can be stolen/consumed from the yard or returned to the deck. Wardancer's either in their hand or isn't, and is going onto the board or isn't, and you can't do anything about that or turn it to your advantage.

On those grounds something should probably be done about it.

Also, ST players sure cry doom a lot despite almost always having at least 1 tier 1 deck and completely crushing the entire meta several times in Gwent's history (Dorfs and old-style spellatael, back when Villen double scorched). The fact the faction keeps getting nerfed and keeps being T1 suggests that those nerfs were pretty justified.

 

[Pruny]

Warduncer ambush that flips at end turn i like that.
:cheers:

 

[Hellsmoke77]

I'm an ST-MO player and want them out of the way, preferably along with Morkvarg and Olgierd or any other carryover with no or minimal counters to mess with dry-pass.

Same thing peope said about ST, when dwarfs got nerfed. The reason nobody else plays other ST decks than Brouver spy-base, is because it's ridicously broken. And the reason nobody played it before last patch, because dwarfs were even more broken. Once it's out of the way I'm pretty sure some new ST deck will rise, because I think it's still gonna be the strongest faction along with SK.

But to be fair when they kill Brouver spy abuse, they should also kill Henselt spy abuse, and Skellige spy abuse (or dare to hope CA spies themselves as otherwise it's only a question of time till some new spy abuse deck arises). Cause you have a point, decks without spy abuse mechanic are currently in a great disadvantage against decks with one.

(Also to be fair currently it's not "barely" t1. We're talking about the deck that has the best win rate on the highest MMR tier and was consistently in top3 since last patch.)

As for Half-elfs, Scouts and Drivers I think all of them need further nerfs along with Bearmasters.

Half elf is 12 points, Nilfgaardian Knight is 12 + 2 armor, if 12 is too many points for a bronze now let's take a look at all bronzes.

Brouver doesn't have the "best win rate".
https://forums.cdprojektred.com/for...0747991-meta-report-11-and-some-meta-analysis

The reason nobody played it before the dwarf nerf is because nobody had figured it out, it had nothing to do with dwarves. Thank Swim for that.

As far as half elves go they are fine, elf swarm is an archetype and every swarm archetype has cards that put multiple bodies on board. If everyone crying about scouts and hunters get their way the elf swarm archetype is dead. Ng has no problem putting 3 bodies on the board, NR definitely has no problem putting multiple bodies on the board, monsters has no problem with it either and SK doesn't need swarm as they just spam bears. If your argument is that scout and hunter are too strong then ST swarm needs other cards that ensure they can still get multiple bodies on the board. Otherwise we have yet another half broken ST archetype that can't compete like current dwarves, movement and spelltael.

Granted ST often has had op archetypes but since CDPR loves to use a hammer to nerf they have destroyed one ST archetype after another, there are none left after mulligan is destroyed. ST without Brouver is not the strongest faction and will not even be competitive once Wardancer, Brouver, Scout and Hunter are nerfed. Yet another huge list of nerfs for ST while other factions stay ridiculously op.

 

[Pruny]

You cant compare halfelf with knights. Those cards are scorch target and they often reveal something you dont want.
12 points without restrictions is wrong. This is why no one plays wildhunt wariors that require setup when bears and elfs dont plus have 2bodies, braindead cards.

Ps. Make halfelf 12points in one body, nobody will play it then

 

[Alch1mist]

Here are two other cards I wasn't sure about when I originally created the thread:

Mandrake

Organic, Special.
Choose One: Heal a unit and Strengthen it by 6; or Reset a unit and Weaken it by 6.

This card doesn’t have the Alchemy category anymore, meaning that Vesimir: Mentor cannot tutor it. In its current state I think that Mandrake is fine, it’s a very versatile tool used to counter quite a lot of units, and therefore shouldn’t be nerfed. The issue with Mandrake however comes with Vesimir: Mentor, which gives too much constituency to the card, making it too strong, particularly in handbuff decks, and it also limits gold choices across factions. There is a case to be made that Mandrake needs to be consistent in a world where cards like Imlerith: Sabbath exists, but that’s more of an issue rising with the latter card than the former.
If Runestones are removed from constructed then Vesimir: Mentor will probably be never be used any-more, though alchemy decks might still take him, but I’d argue that in order to make him stronger they need to buff other alchemy cards such as Dragon's Dream. Moreover Monsters will still have Whispess: Tribute to pull Mandrake, as the card remains Organic, but Monsters are mainly going to benefit from the strengthening aspect with Imlerith: Sabbath, which can easily be countered the turn before unlike Nilfgaardian Knight for example, and outside of that the faction is currently not in the strongest position, and could benefit from this edge, but later on this card might also need to be looked at.

Cleaver

[...]

Cleaver is a hard card to balance because it sees no play outside of the Barclay pull to swing back points after a Yaevinn, it needs to be reworked entirely, but I don't see how, returning to its former locking ability isn't an option any-more as every faction have one of their own now.

----------------

Wardancer. One Morkvarg or Olgierd and it is usless unless it's buffed. If it is buffed than it took more setup than just dropping Olgierd or Morkvarg. Also it's 3 points, any other carryover that sticks beats it. I haven't seen one suggestion made that will keep wardancer in play, literally every suggestion made by players on this forum thus far would completely kill the card. This shows me these suggestions come from non ST players who simply want the card out of the way.

Morkvarg can be countered by killing it several times, or by locking it. Olgierd is only problematic with Bran, but even then can be countered with graveyard hate cards.

Wardancer on the other hand has only one counter, having better carry-overs, but not every deck are using carry-overs, while most Scoia'tael decks do, and even if you use carry-overs your opponent will be able to counter them with the usual tools.

Moreover Wardancer wouldn't be a dead card with the suggestion I made, it's still useful to thin your deck and have point advantage before the round even started, while also being another elf body for the elf swarm archetype, and now benefits from ambush buffs.

This shows me these suggestions come from non ST players who simply want the card out of the way.

For the record I am mainly a Scoia'tael player.

Even without being able to drypass against ST they aren't t1. The Brouver spy abuse is an exploit that needs fixing but once that's fixed what is left for ST? They will have no decks to reach the top ranks with. It's hard enough now even with Brouver and Wardancer.

I'm aware Brouver is t1..barely. My point was I don't count him because he's broken and on borrowed time. Once him and wardancer are patched ST as a whole is completely in the gutter.

Eithné has two strong decks, Scorch and Mahakam Ale based, and in general thrives against some of the top tier decks thanks to double Artefact Compression, or multiple Scorches, but she's eclipsed because Brouver is too strong.

Moreover if I agree that Scoia'tael have quite a lot underwhelming cards, it shouldn't prevent the developers from nerfing several cards that are easy to abuse within the faction. Balancing weak cards is another matter, and not the one I intended when creating this thread.

Where are vipers?

Viper Witcher is also a hard card to balance, because if you nerf them, or rework them, then you might kill the alchemy archetype. It's undeniable that Viper Witchers are very strong, most of the time they're an Alzur's Thunder with a 5 strength body, and of course this is ludicrous because both cards are bronzes, but one is 9 points the other is 14 for the same removal aspect, and even potential Alzur's Thunder tutors like Elven Mercenary or Sage don't have 5 strength bodies. Moreover Viper Witchers value can be even higher, as most decks are going to use 10 alchemy cards, then Viper Witchers are going to potentially reach 15 points without any kind of set-up, or counter, unlike other bronzes that can go above and far beyond 15 points value. That being said there is a slight risk playing with 10 alchemy cards, but it's a risk that is reduced by Vicovaro Novices.

Therefore Viper Witchers are tricky to balance because they're one of the core of alchemy Nilfgaard, the other one being Vicovaro Novices, because Slave Driver don't have synergy with alchemy but they're simply a set-up for Mahakam Ale with good value, unlike Slave Infantry for instance, and if you nerf them too much you'll bring alchemy to the ground.

I tried to slightly nerf Ointment, because Ointment is one of the reason why Viper Witchers are so strong, as you can use them more than three times, but otherwise I haven't come up with a good nerf for them.

 

[time_drainer]

Half elf is 12 points, Nilfgaardian Knight is 12 + 2 armor, if 12 is too many points for a bronze now let's take a look at all bronzes.

Half-elves are 12 points in two bodies, synergy with Elf swarm. Knight is one body, that comes with a drawback with some sort of synergy with Reveal but it's a pretty weak choice for Reveal deck. I would be okay if knights would lose their armor though, not that it counts that much.

Brouver doesn't have the "best win rate".
https://forums.cdprojektred.com/for...0747991-meta-report-11-and-some-meta-analysis

Yes, he does. Just check out the source, as the post you quoted lists popularity and not win rate (also mind I'm only talking about highest 3900+ tier).

The reason nobody played it before the dwarf nerf is because nobody had figured it out, it had nothing to do with dwarves. Thank Swim for that.

You really think the rise of Brouver spy abuse happening right after dwarf-nerfis a coincidence? I bet at least some people were already aware of that combo, and even if it was common knowledge back then, nobody would play it over dwarfs. But of course that's no less speculation than what you said.

As far as half elves go they are fine, elf swarm is an archetype and every swarm archetype has cards that put multiple bodies on board. If everyone crying about scouts and hunters get their way the elf swarm archetype is dead. Ng has no problem putting 3 bodies on the board, NR definitely has no problem putting multiple bodies on the board, monsters has no problem with it either and SK doesn't need swarm as they just spam bears. If your argument is that scout and hunter are too strong then ST swarm needs other cards that ensure they can still get multiple bodies on the board. Otherwise we have yet another half broken ST archetype that can't compete like current dwarves, movement and spelltael.

I'm fine if they keep putting multiple bodies on board as long as it's not zero setup and that much points. I don't have problem with Blue Stripes Commando, which in exchange for 3 bodies is only 9 points on their own (same as NG and NR 3 bodies on the board btw).

Granted ST often has had op archetypes but since CDPR loves to use a hammer to nerf they have destroyed one ST archetype after another, there are none left after mulligan is destroyed. ST without Brouver is not the strongest faction and will not even be competitive once Wardancer, Brouver, Scout and Hunter are nerfed. Yet another huge list of nerfs for ST while other factions stay ridiculously op.

Again I think other spy-abuse crap should also get killed and then none of the current top 3 decks remain as strong as they currently are. Also everybody talks about a lot of other nerfes for other factions as well. (Winch, Slave Driver, etc. get about as much hate as Scouts and Half-elves if not more)

 

[Hellsmoke77]

Bottom line is we can discuss this all day but the fact is CDPR uses a hammer to nerf. ST by far gets the most hate and get's a whole list of nerfs where other factions get slightly nerfed here and there. Now we once again have a whole list of nerfs ready for ST.

People are just going to stop playing if you destroy their faction without giving them something to work with. I already stopped playing and it wasn't because of ST, it was because of NG and NR along with this mulligan bug. I'm still kinda hooked on the game and would love to play but it's just annoying as is.

You can't nerf a whole list of cards with a hammer and more so if that list hits the same faction twice. I expect to see that hammer hit other factions as well next time and it better not hit monsters either, otherwise I don't see myself playing any gwent in the near future.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

I tried to slightly nerf Ointment, because Ointment is one of the reason why Viper Witchers are so strong, as you can use them more than three times, but otherwise I haven't come up with a good nerf for them.

I have no idea why ointment is in the game at all. Since when did NG turn into SK?

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

Did I understand it correctly that Wardancer is only played, if he is swapped by a unit (Saskia, Officer) and not at the start of the round? Then I'm all for it.

Dun Banner
Strength 4 If you are losing by more than 23 on turn start, Summon this unit.

I don't really like this suggestion. It doesn't really fix the abuse with Thaler, because Thaler +1 bronze will nonetheless trigger them. And without Thaler they will become even more unplayable.
Therefore I would suggest, making them either 5 power or 4 power+1armor, but only 1 of them is triggered at the same time. So you will get maximal 5 at once and it can even be worth to include less than 3.