Bear Minimum needed SK Balance changes for 7.1

[rrc]

1) Blacksmith - This HAS to go to 5P. No 4P card should able to hold charges and can target units. And even at 5P it should be like Cooldown 2, reduce Cooldown by 1 when playing a Warrior.
2) Harald the Cripple - Should NOT do piercing damage, and, should be limited to playing only a 4P warrior. His current value ceiling is at trolling level. In his current form he can even be a 15P card and still be included in all warrior decks.
3) Skjordal - He should be 9P at least or even 10P since he is always played at R3 for insane value.
4) Blood Eagle - Should be 11P at least. It can be 12P and still pretty powerful.
5) Second Wind - should be limited to 9P or less and his provision can go back to 14P.

 

[DRK3]

I've been seeing lots of complaints about blacksmith, and i am not sure why...

He remained exactly the same as before, and he was NEVER played. Ofc he's more viable now that SK Warriors are so strong, but this proves its the new bronze SK Warriors that are the real problem.

There are TONS of bronzes that can provide 1pt per turn, NR alone has like 15 of them. And yes, some of them are 4p cards. Some are passive (you dont even need to do anything and they get you the 1pt per turn) while others like blacksmith are active (you need to play to get the point), and even have a condition (play a warrior, which isnt hard on a full warrior deck).
That's why its recommended to run 4/5 dmg specials, so bronze engines dont provide 13-15 value on a full round.

I mostly agree with points 2)-5) so i wont really comment on them.

 

[rrc]

I've been seeing lots of complaints about blacksmith, and i am not sure why...

He remained exactly the same as before, and he was NEVER played. Ofc he's more viable now that SK Warriors are so strong, but this proves its the new bronze SK Warriors that are the real problem.

There are TONS of bronzes that can provide 1pt per turn, NR alone has like 15 of them. And yes, some of them are 4p cards. Some are passive (you dont even need to do anything and they get you the 1pt per turn) while others like blacksmith are active (you need to play to get the point), and even have a condition (play a warrior, which isnt hard on a full warrior deck).
That's why its recommended to run 4/5 dmg specials, so bronze engines dont provide 13-15 value on a full round.

I mostly agree with points 2)-5) so i wont really comment on them.

Gaining 1 point per turn by a 4P card is actually fine and there are PLENTY of cards which do that and I agree with that. But it shouldn't be able to do hold charges and do targeted action. There is actually NO 4P card which can do that, except for Blacksmith. There were 4P cards in the past which could do that and they were all made 5P cards and mostly come with 3 points on board.

I would be absolutely fine if he boosts himself by 1 whenever a warrior is played or heal a warrior with cooldown 2 (reduced cooldown when a warrior is played).. But holding charges and doing targeted boost on any unit is just over the top for ANY 4P card. Previously he was never played as Boats, Cultists, Druids were more point slam. But in the current state, he needs to be changed.

 

[quintivarium]

I think an overlooked issue with Skellige is the existence of too many tags on units (the same problem exists with Nilfgaard). If half of the current “warriors” did not carry that tag, a lot of the issues with Skellige would disappear.

 

[BrownCow54]

For me blood eagle is a huge issue. Really bad matchup for firesworn, but being able to kill a unit and play whatever card you want twice a game makes this matchup nearly impossible.

 

[4RM3D]

Bear Minimum needed SK Balance changes for 7.1

And yet you do not mention any SK bears. Shame.

^ R.I.P.

 

[Guest 4404014]

I've been seeing lots of complaints about blacksmith, and i am not sure why...

Blacksmith is completely broken, even by the standards of NR which is has the best engine protection. This was a major dev oversight when they added to the warrior package so that the whole deck can be warriors. Effectively, it's engine protection AND 1/turn engine for 4p.

Thing is SK should even be having it. It's like adding an NG-valued poison package to MO or a Caranthir to NG.

I think an overlooked issue with Skellige is the existence of too many tags on units (the same problem exists with Nilfgaard). If half of the current “warriors” did not carry that tag, a lot of the issues with Skellige would disappear.

That, too. In fact, everything is over the top. At this point, overnerfing the hell out of it all would be healthier for the game than letting it keep cheesin.

 

[Six-Sided-Prism]

I would be completely fine with them raising the provision costs of both "An Craite Blacksmith" and "Blood Eagle" by 1, but it would be a mistake to nerf either "Harald the Cripple" or "Skjordal Drummond"; they both require Devotion, so they should be able to consistently reach value above their provision costs, especially when this is only achieved when you play them in the third round. If anything, they could change Harald's revival ability so that level 1 can only select a 4-provision Warrior, level 2 can select either a 4- or a 5-provision Warrior, and level 3 can select any Warrior with a provision cost of 6 or lower. Also, as an alternative solution to raising the provision cost of "An Craite Blacksmith", I would prefer they changed his effect to automatically increase the power of any Warrior unit you play by 1; this would make him much more fair.

Regarding the fifth suggested nerf, I've always been in favor of a provision cost restriction for both Second Wind and Mystic Echo's resurrection abilities, but I would go with 10 provisions as the limit instead of 9.

As a final note, I would also make small adjustments to a number of other Skellige cards. For example, "Drummond Villager" should only give Bleeding for 3 turns, "An Craite Greatsword" and "Gigascorpion Decoction" could both have their provision costs increased to 7, "Stunning Blow" could have its provision cost increased to 5, "Drummond Berserker" could have both its power and its provision cost increased by 1. I would also buff some of the other Skellige cards. There are far too many underpowered/useless cards from previous expansions to list, but of the new Master Mirror cards, "War of Clans" is the main one that is entirely underwhelming; it should probably cost 5 provisions instead of 6 so that it's not made completely obsolete by "Freya's Blessing".

 

[DRK3]

Gaining 1 point per turn by a 4P card is actually fine and there are PLENTY of cards which do that and I agree with that. But it shouldn't be able to do hold charges and do targeted action. There is actually NO 4P card which can do that, except for Blacksmith. There were 4P cards in the past which could do that and they were all made 5P cards and mostly come with 3 points on board.

I would be absolutely fine if he boosts himself by 1 whenever a warrior is played or heal a warrior with cooldown 2 (reduced cooldown when a warrior is played).. But holding charges and doing targeted boost on any unit is just over the top for ANY 4P card. Previously he was never played as Boats, Cultists, Druids were more point slam. But in the current state, he needs to be changed.

I dont see what's the big deal of blacksmith holding charges and controlling who gets the boost. Its not like these powerful SK bronze warriors are engines that need protecting. Only the berserker can be considered an engine, but boosting him so he pings one more time doesnt really pay off, it might even be worse than boosting another ally, if he hits armor.

Is the blacksmith being used to boost GS out of 4/5 removal range? That would make more sense, but again, i think its GS that are the problem, i've had many warriors deck in Gwent Betas and HC and they were never broken like now, and blacksmith always felt fair (although sucked most times when he was instantly removed and failed to provide value most times)

 

[Celadyl]

I would be completely fine with them raising the provision costs of both "An Craite Blacksmith" and "Blood Eagle" by 1, but it would be a mistake to nerf either "Harald the Cripple" or "Skjordal Drummond"; they both require Devotion, so they should be able to consistently reach value above their provision costs, especially when this is only achieved when you play them in the third round. If anything, they could change Harald's revival ability so that level 1 can only select a 4-provision Warrior, level 2 can select either a 4- or a 5-provision Warrior, and level 3 can select any Warrior with a provision cost of 6 or lower. Also, as an alternative solution to raising the provision cost of "An Craite Blacksmith", I would prefer they changed his effect to automatically increase the power of any Warrior unit you play by 1; this would make him much more fair.

Regarding the fifth suggested nerf, I've always been in favor of a provision cost restriction for both Second Wind and Mystic Echo's resurrection abilities, but I would go with 10 provisions as the limit instead of 9.

agree with all of the points.
dont think blood eagle needs further nerfing though. yes it is strong but cdpr should nerf the right things, not just nerf everything. BE has already been nerfed by a reasonable amount imo.

 

[Guest 4404014]

I dont see what's the big deal of blacksmith holding charges and controlling who gets the boost. Its not like these powerful SK bronze warriors are engines that need protecting. Only the berserker can be considered an engine, but boosting him so he pings one more time doesnt really pay off, it might even be worse than boosting another ally, if he hits armor.

Herkja and Harald. Sometimes Skjal. And the fact that you can distribute the value evenly or on veiled units or anywhere you want to optimize it vs. removal. This makes it maybe the best 4p in the game. Arguably second only to Stunning Blow or the Villager

Post automatically merged: Jul 20, 2020

dont think blood eagle needs further nerfing though. yes it is strong but cdpr should nerf the right things, not just nerf everything. BE has already been nerfed by a reasonable amount imo.

It does. (Conditionally) any unit tutor for 10 with echo and +2 value plus synergy with bloodlust. Within this deck, this is better than Oneiromancy.

 

[Payus]

This thread should be merged with this one:

The problem with Skellige

So i've played a bit of Ranked lately, where i've faced quite a few Second WInds. And i lost almost every time. Why? I was using a NG Tactics deck. This deck was destroying SK Warriors earlier this month, but now it loses, because a lot of these SK decks arent using GS/Dagur anymore! This was...

forums.cdprojektred.com

 

[Six-Sided-Prism]

It does. (Conditionally) any unit tutor for 10 with echo and +2 value plus synergy with bloodlust. Within this deck, this is better than Oneiromancy.

I think you need to read "Blood Eagle" one more time. Even if you fulfill the Deathblow/Bloodthirst trigger, it can still only target Warriors, definitely not any unit.

Also, cards that heavily synergize with a specific deck theme (like Blood Eagle) should always be better in their appropriate deck than a more generalized Neutral equivalent (like Oneiromancy), so that argument is basically moot.

 

[Qzman]

I think an overlooked issue with Skellige is the existence of too many tags on units (the same problem exists with Nilfgaard).

Ah yes, the good old tag abuse with Nilfgaard that is totally oppressive...

If half of the current “warriors” did not carry that tag, a lot of the issues with Skellige would disappear.

Only the few related to Harald, but units by themselves and replaying OP golds would still make it a tier 0 faction.

 

[Guest 4404014]

I think you need to read "Blood Eagle" one more time. Even if you fulfill the Deathblow/Bloodthirst trigger, it can still only target Warriors, definitely not any unit.

Any unit within the deck. Except the Blacksmith (and sometimes the Wild Boar). That's one of the thousand things that make SK so broken. Devs forgot that a tag condition is no condition at all when every unit has that tag.

Also, cards that heavily synergize with a specific deck theme (like Blood Eagle) should always be better in their appropriate deck than a more generalized Neutral equivalent (like Oneiromancy), so that argument is basically moot.

In most cases, yes. But not in the case of consistency options in devotion decks. Not having full provision range tutorship options is one of the downsides of devotion. For every faction except SK (and ST but are we really gonna go there comparing SK to ST?). And SK got it ECHOED...

Also, "specific deck themes" usually mean there are more crystallized strengths and weaknesses. SK got no weaknesses. There is no reason why you would wanna include a neutral even if it didn't break devotion (maybe except the Heaver - the only thing) - or a SK non-warrior even - when your specific theme package already has it all. And most of it best in the game in their respective categories.

SK is a thousand things, each of them broken.

 

[InkognitoXI]

I still think the warrior archtype would be fine without a nerf if it could not interact with **** Great-swords.
The issue is that Greatswords are only fine if they only get supported by themselves underpowered cards (like the Dimum Longship).
Furthermore the new Warrior archtype is an amazing short round archtype, which combined with Greatswords insane long round potential results in a lose-lose condition based on the round length for the opponent, which is also the largest balancing issue the old Harmony decks had.

Personally I think the issue would be fixed if Greatswords could not be used in the same deck or would meet the same fate as Bearmasters.

 

[Markus_Wirth]

To my mind there is also a lot of need for improvement since SK is still dominating. To your suggestions: I think they are too intense and would probably kill SK as harmony nerv did to SC.

1) Blacksmith - This HAS to go to 5P. No 4P card should able to hold charges and can target units. And even at 5P it should be like Cooldown 2, reduce Cooldown by 1 when playing a Warrior.

To my mind Blacksmith is somehow between 4 and 5 as warrior became much more important. I would solve this issue with decreasing strength to 3 and give one armour

2) Harald the Cripple - Should NOT do piercing damage, and, should be limited to playing only a 4P warrior. His current value ceiling is at trolling level. In his current form he can even be a 15P card and still be included in all warrior decks.

To my mind each fraction´s evolving card should be somehow the same value. If you want to evaluate those leader you have to evaluate the powerful deploy action and the passive Action and potential synergies. I will do for each and every leader, as the base value of all those is the same with 5. I start with the perceived strongest and go to the highest.
a) Eithne: Deploy two young dryads (value of those should be 6 to my mind as I would argue that symbiosis has a value of about 1;
Eithne has symbiosis as a passive ability (also 1 point). So here overall value in round 3 would be 13.
b) Jacques Aldersberg: Deploy two flaming rose footman (value would be 5,5 to my mind as they have potential synergies in swarm decks, with the one being damaged by missing firesowrn tokens and with fallen knights; Furthermore the coins could theoretical also be saved).
Passive ability appears to be much stronger. Usually Jacques is played very early in round 3 (only playing Fallen Knight before makes sense as they get 2 points from Jacques). So he gets an additional point potential of round about 5 if not removed. The passive ability I would count for 3,5 points due to the danger of removal. So here overall value in round 3 would be 15.
c) Auberon: Create and play a WH bronze (6 points as it is boosted by 1 automatically. And the drawn card usually has at least a value of 5).
Passive ability: Is smiliar to Jacques but I would evaluate this with 4 points due to lower danger of tall removal. So here overall value in round 3 would be 16.
d) Usurper: Create and play two operatives (7,5 points due to high synergy with aristocrates, Impera Enforcers, Assimiliate, Thirsty Dames and potential to spam the deck). For the passive ability I would only give round about 2,5 points. The reason is that usually the aristocrates and other spying agents are played before Usurper and there are not so many fitting agent cards. So here overall value in round 3 would be 16.
e) Harald: Play a bronze warrior from your deck (6 points assuming Greatswords is the target and directly boosted or similar engine.
For the passive ability I would also count 6 points. Reason: High probability that it causes synergies (Greatsword massacre or blood thirst). Usually, not often removed as removal cards has already been spent for Greatsword/Dragur. So here overall value in round 3 would be 19.
If you limit to non piercing damage the passive ability I would count for 4,5. And for the deploy activity I would count for 4 points. Then Harald would be round about 14,5 (being the second worst after Eithne).
I would limit him to 5 and abolish piercing damage. Then he would have a decent value of round about 15,5 and Greatsword massacre would be siginifantly reduced.

3) Skjordal - He should be 9P at least or even 10P since he is always played at R3 for insane value.
Would leave him as he his. But add one additional condition: Damage himself by 3 minus the cards your opponent has in his hand. If played so late that your opponent has no chance to react your value also gets reduced.

4) Blood Eagle - Should be 11P at least. It can be 12P and still pretty powerful.
Still love my old idea:
Damage an enemy unit by 2 then play a warrior from your deck with max 5 provision cost. If it has higher provision costs damage it by one for each difference.
Deathblow: Increase the limit by 2
Bloodthirst 3: Increase the limit by 2
=> Fits much better the Skellige Nature and weakens the card

5) Second Wind - should be limited to 9P or less and his provision can go back to 14P.
Would leave as it is but add one additional thing to keep druids competitive:
If you play a bronze unit increase its strength by 4.

Additionally, I´d like to highlight my previous ideas again:
Morkvarg: decrease strength to 4
=> Usually he creates much more value than 6, as usually he has good targets. So a small nerv might be justified.

Wild Boar of the Sea
-> Give Initiative to the Second Strike

 

[Guest 4404014]

To your suggestions: I think they are too intense and would probably kill SK as harmony nerv did to SC.

Harmony was the strongest deck last patch but it was nowhere as over-the-top as SK is now. Harmony had about 54% winrate and 7% play rate. According to community surveys, SK approaches 60% win rate and 30 freaking percent play rate. Idk how accurate this is but from what I see in the ladder it's probably even worse.

So, if we were to apply a reaction proportional to the crime and punishment of harmony, we would have to remove SK from the game and ban accounts of every player who mained it this patch.

Seriously, though, overnerfs would be much healthier for the game than no nerfs at this point. Just check out the leaderboards for pro. In top fifty, there are exactly 6 NR/SY/MO positions, first at 23rd. Rest is SK and NG in about 3:1 proportion.

If you limit to non piercing damage the passive ability I would count for 4,5. And for the deploy activity I would count for 4 points. Then Harald would be round about 14,5 (being the second worst after Eithne).

You can't just give stats arbitrary scores.

Harald deploys for 7 (6 body and 1 ping on deploy) plus whatever value the revived warrior brings. So, at least 14 as deploy value. Furthermore, Harald's pings are the most consistent, almost a guaranteed 1/turn, because almost every card in the deck is a warrior. Due to the fact that he can revive GS, there is no actual ceiling to his value. Harald is undoubtedly the best evolving card and - according to many pro players - the best card in the game currently. It's simply broken. It's not designed for Gwent. It's like SK was playing some hyper empowered seasonal mode, and the other side didn't

 

[DRK3]

Harald deploys for 7 (6 body and 1 ping on deploy) plus whatever value the revived warrior brings. So, at least 14 as deploy value. Furthermore, Harald's pings are the most consistent, almost a guaranteed 1/turn, because almost every card in the deck is a warrior. Due to the fact that he can revive GS, there is no actual ceiling to his value. Harald is undoubtedly the best evolving card and - according to many pro players - the best card in the game currently. It's simply broken. It's not designed for Gwent. It's like SK was playing some hyper empowered seasonal mode, and the other side didn't

Im not sure i agree with Harald being the best card in the game, but its definitely the best evolving card.
And the worst part is - he's the evolving card who provides most passive points, so you wanna remove him, but since he's mostly played on Second Wind, he's also the only evolving card that it might not be wise to do so, because he can be replayed again ith leader ability, and revive yet another bronze warrior...

The best counter i've found is just seizing him, with my tactics-6 or a spy/helge+amnesty setup, but honestly that's just NG that actually has some decent counters for it, while the other factions just auto-lose to SK.

 

[Markus_Wirth]

You can't just give stats arbitrary scores.

Harald deploys for 7 (6 body and 1 ping on deploy) plus whatever value the revived warrior brings. So, at least 14 as deploy value. Furthermore, Harald's pings are the most consistent, almost a guaranteed 1/turn, because almost every card in the deck is a warrior. Due to the fact that he can revive GS, there is no actual ceiling to his value. Harald is undoubtedly the best evolving card and - according to many pro players - the best card in the game currently. It's simply broken. It's not designed for Gwent. It's like SK was playing some hyper empowered seasonal mode, and the other side didn't

Well, according to my analysis Harald is still by far the strongest evolving card. Of course, my number might be subjective but I think they are not that bad as I took into account synergies, when they are played, removal, etc..
To my mind Harald would be fair if he would be limited to 5 provisions and only cause damage and no pierced damage. 4 provisions I would consider to be too intense. And he could not revive GS after a 5 provisions limit