Being Visibly Armed,Holsters and Trunks

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Dual-wielding, piffle. Hollywood silliness. One is fine - learn to shoot. And use a rifle, a handgun you only carry until you can get your hands on a weapon.

I realise this isn't very Grammaton-cleric of me, but lots of dumb Cpunk players try this and die. Your off hand is to steady the shot, or carry mags or grenades or god forbid, actually do hand-type things like hold onto railings, brace against walls, grab your partner, etc.
 
Uh-huh. First, for ridiculous silly gunfighter boys, John Preston would kill him in an eyeblink - with one gun. 2nd, NO ONE flies gently through the air shooty shooting as your opponents have lots of time to line up a shot. 3rd, CP2020 doesn't even give you an extra attack or anything for dual wielding, so meh. MEH.

Killer was a damn stylish movie, though.
 
2nd, NO ONE flies gently through the air shooty shooting as your opponents have lots of time to line up a shot. 3rd, CP2020 doesn't even give you an extra attack or anything for dual wielding, so meh. MEH.

Killer was a damn stylish movie, though.

1. Not sure whaat flying gently through the air has to do with anything... thats certainly not something I ever saw in any of Fats hong Kong flicks...

2. CP 2020 Dual Wielding most certainly does give you extra attacks... using two weapons incurs a penalty, but allows you make your full ROF with each weapon. IU imposes further penalties, but it also has an optional rules that allows the character to roll for natural ambidexterity at creation.

Chow Yun Fat is truly the saint of killers.... though I prefer Hard Boiled to the Killer., Tequila was just pure cool. And Mad Dog was one of the best heavies ever...

Hell, the sourcebook Rough Guide To The Pacific Rim even introduces Gun-Fu to the martial arts specifically to emulate hong kong style action...
 
1. The Killer, flying forwards shooting, pigeons above..and that's just one scene where he's diving around going bang bang.

2. Full RoF, sure, but those aren't extra attacks, it's just up to the weapons RoF. Get a higher RoF if you have an issue hitting. And you have to suck back the multiple action penalties regardless. I suppose if you like your V Heavy RoF 1 pistols, it might be useful..then you eat a -3 to hit plus whatever other penalties are there. Nah. Anyway, WHY are you using a pistol?! Get a real gun, man! And WHY would ambidexteriyy affect anything? Pistol shooting is all about steady hand, grip control, etc.

Dual wielding = dumb. Especially in Cpunk, a semi-real shoot game. Next you'll be suggesting dodging bullets or some rot.

Also, while we're on the subject of RoF - it's weak. The RoF for pistol especially is weaksauce. By all means impose a negative for rapid firing, but the mechanical action of, say, a .357 or .44 can easily put out more than 1 or 2 rounds in 3 seconds. It was always weak, really.
 
Hmm!

I think we can all agree that for revolvers and semi-automatics, the firearm is (typically) as quick as the operator's skill.

What if the RoF scaled with the person's skill? Semi-autos would have a cap, since you have to wait for the slide to cycle, but in the hands of a master pistolero, a revolver can spit out all six rounds in short order.
 
1. The Killer, flying forwards shooting, pigeons above..and that's just one scene where he's diving around going bang bang.

2. Full RoF, sure, but those aren't extra attacks, it's just up to the weapons RoF. Get a higher RoF if you have an issue hitting. And you have to suck back the multiple action penalties regardless. I suppose if you like your V Heavy RoF 1 pistols, it might be useful..then you eat a -3 to hit plus whatever other penalties are there. Nah. Anyway, WHY are you using a pistol?! Get a real gun, man! And WHY would ambidexteriyy affect anything? Pistol shooting is all about steady hand, grip control, etc.

Dual wielding = dumb. Especially in Cpunk, a semi-real shoot game. Next you'll be suggesting dodging bullets or some rot.

Also, while we're on the subject of RoF - it's weak. The RoF for pistol especially is weaksauce. By all means impose a negative for rapid firing, but the mechanical action of, say, a .357 or .44 can easily put out more than 1 or 2 rounds in 3 seconds. It was always weak, really.

It most certainly is an extra attack. You roll separately for both guns.

As for the wonky ROF rules in CP 2020, that's yet another thing IU fixes... the ROF of any semi-auto or double action weapon is always 1... because one shot is fired when you pull the bloody trigger. You want to fire more than one shot, that's what the whole Combat Action thing is for, where skill determines how many times in rapid succession you can pull the trigger before you start taking penalties.

Its a complicated mechanic, but the character sheet does all the math for you, and it works really really well.

Under the system Initiative is treated as its own skill... Initiative +combat sense + relevant skill equals your Combat actions. These are divided into Quick, Normal, and Full. Divide combat actions by 5 to get the number of Quick Actions, by 10 to get normal, by 15 to get full.

As I said, its a bit complicated, but the math is all done for you on the character sheet...

Pulling the trigger is a quick action... so a character with a 5 handgun skill, a 4 Initiative, and a 1 in combat sense will have two quick actions... meaning he can fire twice in a round before he has to start taking the -3 penalty for each successive shot. Progression is slow, and the most any character will every realistically be able to get is 6 shots a round... and that's only if he is shooting at the same target (as switching targets takes a quick action)... and that's if he has a 10 in initiative, Combat Sense, and the relevant weapon skill.

If he is dual wielding, obviously he gets the same amount of attacks with his offhand, however unless the ambidexterity was natural (optional rule), he still incurs the -3 penalty to both weapons.
 
I'm sort-of familiar with it - it's one of the things I think IU did not so well. It's complicated and not beautiful. I prefer init the way it was, although I understand you were trying to reduce the effect of Combat Sense.

I dispense with issues like RoF by saying, "sure!" and adding some extra penalties. That's also why I have no use for dual wield - it's not an extra free attack, it's just another -3. Relevant if you are running out of RoF space, but you shouldn't be anyway. Handguns pff. Get an SMG if you must.

The other things I like about FNFF extra actions rule is it encourages players to move faster and faster, getting less and less accurate. This increases the chance of a fail - or even a fumble - as they keep trying things desperately. And makes me laugh.

For maximum actions, on the very rare occasion it became an issue, I usually used their skill or stat as the max.

Time between extra actions was a bit trickier - obviously if you roll 20 init and the next guy hits 18, you don't get to fire all your actions at once.
 
Hmm!

I think we can all agree that for revolvers and semi-automatics, the firearm is (typically) as quick as the operator's skill.

What if the RoF scaled with the person's skill? Semi-autos would have a cap, since you have to wait for the slide to cycle, but in the hands of a master pistolero, a revolver can spit out all six rounds in short order.

The original system we were using (that is still up on my D-ROCS Rules page on the site, was that you simply divided your weapon skill in half... but that didn't really cover all the necessary favors, and just led to everyone dumping all their points in whatever their primary weapon skill is...

Spreading it out helped out in that regard a lot... so while the system I came up with is a bit more work than some people are willing to do, it does a fair job of smoothing out point dumping, and keeps things on a much more even keep for much longer... in other words it slows down severely the power creep you get even in cyberpunk.
 
I really try to avoid dividing or multiplying in terms of limits or capabilities. PLayers get "that look" - you know the one - and interest dwindles. I shoot for a simpler approach, where the limits are the skills or stats or Special Ability.
 
I'm sort-of familiar with it - it's one of the things I think IU did not so well. It's complicated and not beautiful. I prefer init the way it was, although I understand you were trying to reduce the effect of Combat Sense.

I dispense with issues like RoF by saying, "sure!" and adding some extra penalties. That's also why I have no use for dual wield - it's not an extra free attack, it's just another -3. Relevant if you are running out of RoF space, but you shouldn't be anyway. Handguns pff. Get an SMG if you must.

The other things I like about FNFF extra actions rule is it encourages players to move faster and faster, getting less and less accurate. This increases the chance of a fail - or even a fumble - as they keep trying things desperately. And makes me laugh.

Bah, handguns are just cooler... they are easily concealable and you look cooler using them.

As for the combat action system, it is a bit complicated, admittedly, and not for everyone... but it is elegant, and once you understand the mechanic, it comes pretty naturally.

As for Initiative, not only was I trying to reduce the effectiveness of Combat Sense (which it does beautifully), but also to reduce the importance of REF as the God Stat. It's still by far the most important combat Stat in the game, but I have taken great pains to improve the importance of other stats, and have managed to bring down the REF stat so even combat characters don't feel horribly out of place with REF scores around 7-8...

Balance, but not necessarily equality, was the rule of thumb for how to re-approach the stats...

And the action rules that encourage those things still exist... its just you are no longer hampered by bullshit firing mechanics that made you slap your head in frustration.
 
I really try to avoid dividing or multiplying in terms of limits or capabilities. PLayers get "that look" - you know the one - and interest dwindles. I shoot for a simpler approach, where the limits are the skills or stats or Special Ability.


That's why its all optional... and why I made sure the character sheet did all the work for you...

Simple isn't always better for everyone... I mean lots of people really love basic DnD or Savage Worlds... but I can't get behind anything like that.... on theother hand, I don't want to be playing GURPS or the Hero system either...

Interlock strikes just the perfect balance between "Cinematic realism" (becuase realism is a misnomer in an rpg) and simplicity.... and IU falls just a slight hair to the more complicated side in some ways, and a slight hair to the simpler side in others... falling roughly the same spot regular interlock does, but covering things much more suitably.... at least IMHO. But I am biased...
 
Yeah, I use weapons because they "look cooler". Not in Cpunk I don't.

Crunchiness is a matter of preference, but I typically lean towards less-crunchy in action, since if you slow it down, it doesn't feel very exciting. I like REF as the god stat - it tends to be in The Real World, too. That and Cool.

I'd like to see Cool used more.

Ooh! On-topic for a change: a conceal check in-game that the NPCs have to subtract a portion of your Cool from to see you are carrying. It's all about nerve and style, baby.
 
On-topic for a change: a conceal check in-game that the NPCs have to subtract a portion of your Cool from to see you are carrying. It's all about nerve and style, baby.
Hm. I could buy that; falls in to that whole "social engineering" thing. Convincing other people that you're supposed to be there and nothing is out of place, because you're acting the part.
 
Yeah, I use weapons because they "look cooler". Not in Cpunk I don't.

Crunchiness is a matter of preference, but I typically lean towards less-crunchy in action, since if you slow it down, it doesn't feel very exciting. I like REF as the god stat - it tends to be in The Real World, too. That and Cool.

I'd like to see Cool used more.

Ooh! On-topic for a change: a conceal check in-game that the NPCs have to subtract a portion of your Cool from to see you are carrying. It's all about nerve and style, baby.

Heh, cool factor aside, I use weapons I can take pretty much everywhere...

Rifels and SMG's are jsut to bulky, to combersome, and get too many peoples atention....

Now don;t get me wrong, if I know I am gonna be in a major amount of shit, I will rifle up like anyone else, I am not stupid... range, damage, ammo count, a good rifle has all that...

SMG's on the other hand, just seem kind of useless to me most of the time... ay smg worth having isn't as concealable as a good handgun, but they lack the punch of a rifle...

sure their are situations where they are useful, but in any situation where they are, there is usually a better tool for the job... I mean I would much rather have an auto shotgun for room to room sweeps, for precision shots I would just switch to my sidearm... The ammo weighs less, meaning you can carry more of it, which is why special forces love them so much... but even they go with rifles when they can...

But its all a matter of personal style really...

As for cool, I bumped up its importance as well... With IU Cool is now the stat you roll stun saves against... bod is used for death saves...
 
SMG's on the other hand, just seem kind of useless to me most of the time... ay smg worth having isn't as concealable as a good handgun, but they lack the punch of a rifle...
SMG vs rifle is usually more of a tactical decision. Ammo weight and how much you can carry, ammo interchangability between your main and your secondary, maneuverability in CQC. Ammo types and overpenetration considerations, depending on the job, and subsonic rounds for suppressed weapons.

Plus, SMGs are REALLY good at "pray n' spray" / suppressive fire. If you need to put a LOT of lead down the hallway to cover your exit (mostly, to keep heads down,) the SMG is a good choice.
 
SMG is an excellent choice for most situations needing a pistol, if you care about RoF rules, ( we usually don't; a good operatro can put 10 rounds in 10 seconds no problem) and the FNFF rules have most Med-Hvy SMGs as J/L concealeable, same has H/VH pistols. SMGs can also suppress, and we all love that.

Feel free to check up on this, of course, but operators prefer SMGs for light work, even in covert situations. Pistols are handy only for legality purposes mostly.

In FNFF, I actually throw style out the window. If you want to survive in the full-on ruleset, you really need to be utterly dedicated to whatever works best.

Come to think of it, I usually throw style out the window as a player. I'm a bad, bad punk.
 
I hope they do make visible weapons on characters and have the cops mess with them if its like obscene amounts of firepower, I would also like it if your character can get like a concealed weapons permit. Cops see the character with a gun ask to see his permit he shows they go, if he don't have they bust him.
 
I hope they do make visible weapons on characters and have the cops mess with them if its like obscene amounts of firepower, I would also like it if your character can get like a concealed weapons permit. Cops see the character with a gun ask to see his permit he shows they go, if he don't have they bust him.

I like this idea.
 
Come to think of it, I usually throw style out the window as a player. I'm a bad, bad punk.
Ha! YEAH you are. =p

I hope they do make visible weapons on characters and have the cops mess with them if its like obscene amounts of firepower, I would also like it if your character can get like a concealed weapons permit. Cops see the character with a gun ask to see his permit he shows they go, if he don't have they bust him.
That'd be more of an open-carry permit, wouldn't it?

I think it'd be a cool idea. Of course, they should be NOTORIOUSLY difficult to come by. Can't have every weeflerunner cruising around Corporate Plaza with their Barrett .50 cal rifle or their rocket propelled grenade launcher slung over their shoulder, neh?
 
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