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Best moral decisions in The Witcher?

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E

elwongo2

Rookie
#1
May 18, 2013
Best moral decisions in The Witcher?

Guys, I'm going to be blunt with you. I'm running a tabletop role-playing game (The interesting Dragon Age RPG if you're interested http://greenronin.com/dragon_age/) and I wanted to steal some plot elements from "The Witcher" and use them in my own campaign. (It's not like I'm profiting - I just don't have any ideas for my dark fantasy campaign at the moment. )

Now I bought both The Witcher 1 and 2, but I couldn't get into 1. Mostly because when I got to Chapter III my save got corrupted and I gave up.



I want to hear from the awesome players of "The Witcher" - what are the most interested moral decisions in the game? When do they happen? Spoilers are OK.
 
S

Sirnaq

Rookie
#2
May 18, 2013
During your visit on the swamps you meet nice old man called "Grandpa", you help him get through to the altar of goddess Melitele. After that grandpa invites you to his hut in the middle of swamps. When you get there you found him eating stew of human brain. Grandpa have some valuable information you need, you can either chose to kill cannibal or to get information.
 
G

GuyNwah

Ex-moderator
#3
May 18, 2013
Well, there's the big framing decision that keeps coming up through the game: are the Squirrels really freedom fighters? Is the Order the legitimate protector of the people? Or do they both deserve a plague upon their houses? There is always a foundation, in what you find and what others tell you, for believing one way or the other. There are always consequences, unknowable in advance but in hindsight understandable, for what you choose.

But to me the starkest moral decision is the one that confronts you in the first Act: who do you believe brought the Beast upon the villagers of the Outskirts: the witch Abigail, or their own misdeeds? And should Abigail be handed over to them for it? Unlike other choices, where the consequences are mostly pretty direct, this one has consequences that will not be revealed until much later and in a quite unexpected context.
 
R

RSIK_4

Rookie
#4
May 18, 2013
GuyN said:
Well, there's the big framing decision that keeps coming up through the game: are the Squirrels really freedom fighters? Is the Order the legitimate protector of the people? Or do they both deserve a plague upon their houses? There is always a foundation, in what you find and what others tell you, for believing one way or the other. There are always consequences, unknowable in advance but in hindsight understandable, for what you choose.

But to me the starkest moral decision is the one that confronts you in the first Act: who do you believe brought the Beast upon the villagers of the Outskirts: the witch Abigail, or their own misdeeds? And should Abigail be handed over to them for it? Unlike other choices, where the consequences are mostly pretty direct, this one has consequences that will not be revealed until much later and in a quite unexpected context.
Click to expand...
dnt know why in these quest i saved abigail....but later i found her guilty about it....
 
S

Sirnaq

Rookie
#5
May 18, 2013
She is priestess of lionhead spider god. She is obviously evil and come to the village to mess with people. But it's the people that committed that atrocities. So who is guilty, someone that made people into criminals or criminals themselves.
 
G

GuyNwah

Ex-moderator
#6
May 18, 2013
Though Abigail is no saint, she is at most an accessory to the infamous crimes the villagers committed.
Her role in instigating or facilitating any of the crimes is minor and in no way decisive. I don't see how Haren's greed or his inability to keep his trousers buttoned makes her an instigator of the trade with the hawkers, or how the voodoo doll she made for Odo gave him the courage to murder his brother that his best buddy from the bottle did. She had nothing to do with Mikul's rape of Ilsa, only helped the poor girl commit suicide in her shame; and she had no power over the most vicious of the lot, the Reverend himself.

They were set on being criminals before Abigail came, they committed crimes that Abigail did not cause them to, and Geralt's conclusion that they brought the Beast upon themselves is the only one in accordance with the facts.

Anyway, the sex cards often come in for a lot of criticism. But they're part of the choice and consequence system, in their own way. Each one tells you something important about the woman Geralt just bedded. Sometimes what it tells you should scare the daylights out of him. Abigail's is in that category.
 
S

Sirnaq

Rookie
#7
May 18, 2013
It depends who do you believe really. If we assume that villagers are liars than save Abigail and murder villagers is the "right" choice, but at least i found some presumptive evidences that not everything is so black and white. The problem is that both witch and villagers tell you half lies, half truths and you can't trust any of them. If there was a choice i would kill both witch and villagers, because they are both guilty, now you need to decide what is less evil. I am not sure if you read entries about spider god, but whole purpose of the cult is to make people do evil. I wouldn't assume that they were all criminals before Abigail appearance, we have not enough information and we can only speculate.
 
B

bengeddes

Forum veteran
#8
May 18, 2013
One theme that turns up is "a monster in appearance" vs. "a monster inside." Geralt learns that some classical monsters have rational, sane minds and avoid evil, while some apparently normal humans do evil monstrous deeds.

In Chapter III you have the story of Vincent and Carmen. Vincent is the captain of the guard and Carmen is his hooker girlfriend. Vincent also happens to be a werewolf.

Carmen desperately wants to help Vincent find a cure, and recruits Geralt to help. It turns out, however that Vincent is quite satisfied being a werewolf, as he more or less retains his mind and goes out at night as a vigilante werewolf crime-fighter. Still, Carmen is frightened at this savagery, and all of Geralt's knowledge indicates that eventually Vincent will slowly lose his mind and become a savage beast in body, mind, and spirit.

So, when Geralt happens to bump into werewolf Vincent, what does he do? Does he tell Vincent, "keep up the good work, and help me kill some bad guys," or does he kill the monster before he can do any serious harm to innocents? Or maybe he honors his agreement with Carmen and continues to search for a cure to lift the curse? But can mere human Vincent be as much help in the fight against the bad guys?

--------

The freedom fighters/terrorists vs. the law and order/oppressors is the overarching decision, as others have described. In the first game, I'm probably not the only one who sided with the Order not because of their ideals, but because of Siegfried. Fighting against the "big bad racist oppressors" might have been an easier choice if you didn't have someone like Siegfried as your friend and ally. You begin to realize only later that he's a total anomaly in the Witcher universe, a true knight, as if he stepped out of a story.
 
S

sfinx

Rookie
#9
May 18, 2013
Abigail - as already mentioned ... big decission, but not so hard - to let mad crowd of murderers lynch and execute sorceress, when you got no proof about her guilt? Even when I would get the proof, I wouldn't let them. If you do that, Geralt partly regrets that.

Beasts - kill them or let them live. Also good question, but answer is not so difficult. Vincent, Gravier, Ladies of the night...
Better question is about Adda - that is more like revenge/forgiveness.
(I always spared them - as I know - they wasn't guilty and when some idiot just wants to get her sister to marriage with some old man, when Vincent helped me a lot and I could just ruin his and Carmen's life, I saw no need to kill them.)

Berengar - very difficult - he is betrayer, but he was just very feared, so..?
(I let him go - he acted bad, but as I know, he was just feared.)

Adam - to forgive revenge or not?
(I gave him into prison - I can understand if someone thirst for revenge, but one was just accident and second unnecesarry murder. Mainy - her sister, which had the best reason to be angry forgived her. He just wanted to be some judger.)

And probably main - Order/Sqirrels
- I chose squirrels - main reason are books for me. I don't see them like a terrorists - they are just desperate. Yaevinn basicly said - people chose instead of him. He tried to live with them, but how you can live in endless fear like something worse than human, in special (worst) part of towns. During plague, they were transported to Old Wizima, not healed in hospital like the others. So they are still attacked, they have to pay special taxes, they don't have same rights, they don't deserve same care,... Fight of Scoia'tael is just organized form of attacks from human. But Squirrels are terrorists and actions of human are just regrettable.
But also they have dark side - their thirst for revenge is sometimes too big (but still with roots in actions of human). They are too proud,...
Order is just band of fanatics for me, which read one prophecy and after that they want to rise only one race and eliminate others, nothing more. They want to hunt the sorcerers (as I heard) - but their master was also mage, fight with non-human. Seems like Nilfgaard to me, maybe worse - only one opinion, so cruel punishments. I think they were descriped pretty well in diary.
 
V

vivaxardas2015

Rookie
#10
May 18, 2013
Actually, in TW1 there were no hard choices for me at all. I always play neutral, because I do not like both squirrels and the Order. I always spare or cure everyone I can. I do not give goods to squirrels because it was against what I agreed to do, and I do not break promises. I always save Abigale. Yes, she provided the means, but she did not create the whole situation. She was like an honest arms dealer, who supplies arms in a conflict, but does not create conflicts.
 
I

iisvloi

Rookie
#11
May 18, 2013
EccentricOwl said:
Guys, I'm going to be blunt with you. I'm running a tabletop role-playing game (The interesting Dragon Age RPG if you're interested http://greenronin.com/dragon_age/) and I wanted to steal some plot elements from "The Witcher" and use them in my own campaign. (It's not like I'm profiting - I just don't have any ideas for my dark fantasy campaign at the moment. )

Now I bought both The Witcher 1 and 2, but I couldn't get into 1. Mostly because when I got to Chapter III my save got corrupted and I gave up.



I want to hear from the awesome players of "The Witcher" - what are the most interested moral decisions in the game? When do they happen? Spoilers are OK.
Click to expand...
Make it so each and every character has equal amounts of redeemable and irredeemable qualities like in the Witcher. a perfect example is king Foltest; he had an incestuous affair with his own sister, and is well known infamously for many affair type scandels, but he's is also a loving father, regardless of whether the children in question are bastards or illegitimate heirs. that is why my favorite scene in video game history is in Assassin's of Kings during the man's assassination. Because when you see him with his children, he appears to not see them as a necessity to continue his bloodline, but simply as his children whom he loves. the way he caresses them fatherly like, his nod of thanks to Letho as a blind monk, the outstretched hands he and Anais share when the kids leave the room, all make it quite clear that he cares about them.
 
V

vivaxardas2015

Rookie
#12
May 18, 2013
GynvaelBleidd said:
Make it so each and every character has equal amounts of redeemable and irredeemable qualities like in the Witcher. a perfect example is king Foltest; he had an incestuous affair with his own sister, and is well known infamously for many affair type scandels, but he's is also a loving father, regardless of whether the children in question are bastards or illegitimate heirs. that is why my favorite scene in video game history is in Assassin's of Kings during the man's assassination. Because when you see him with his children, he appears to not see them as a necessity to continue his bloodline, but simply as his children whom he loves. the way he caresses them fatherly like, his nod of thanks to Letho as a blind monk, the outstretched hands he and Anais share when the kids leave the room, all make it quite clear that he cares about them.
Click to expand...
Actually, Foltest's behavior is bad (sinful) only from a Judeo-Christian perspective (three major monotheistic religions). From a modern non-theistic moral perspective, it was permissible because it was between consenting adults. Neither his sister, nor Louise were raped, and in this case it is nobody's business what happens in somebody's bedroom. Nothing irredeemable about it. Foltest was shown in a very positive light in both TW1 and TW2.

Why exactly incest is morally bad (evil) even if both parties want this relationship, is something I have no idea how to argue for. It is more of a social taboo most people uphold, and it might have some negative consequences for the health of the children (though not even close to as much as people believe), but I don't see any EVIL in it.
 
E

elwongo2

Rookie
#13
May 18, 2013
That werewolf one? Wow. That's really interesting. That's really, really cool, in fact- cool enough to drop into basically any game. Wow. I'm almost sad I didn't find that. It really does make you think.

As for the Abigail/Villager one, you say that there are consequences later on? What are they? Aside from that, well, she doesn't die so I assume you run into her later.


Who is this 'Adam' character you mention?
 
Yeiiow

Yeiiow

Senior user
#14
May 18, 2013
Sirnaq said:
She is priestess of lionhead spider god.
Click to expand...
From where did you got that info?
 
G

GuyNwah

Ex-moderator
#15
May 18, 2013
EccentricOwl said:
That werewolf one? Wow. That's really interesting. That's really, really cool, in fact- cool enough to drop into basically any game. Wow. I'm almost sad I didn't find that. It really does make you think.

As for the Abigail/Villager one, you say that there are consequences later on? What are they? Aside from that, well, she doesn't die so I assume you run into her later.


Who is this 'Adam' character you mention?
Click to expand...
You have to play into Act 4 to get to these things.

If you spare Abigail, she turns up again as the healer in Murky Waters. If you let the villagers lynch her, the healer refuses to help you because you have "innocent blood on your hands". As for Adam, he is Alina's lover, but Alina is to marry Julian, Adam is being a mope about it, and Bad Things ensue. Talk to the Resolute Girl, who knows everything, about "yearning".
 
B

Blothulfur

Mentor
#16
May 18, 2013
Killing elves.
 
C

CostinRaz

Banned
#17
May 18, 2013
The Letho decision.
 
B

bengeddes

Forum veteran
#18
May 19, 2013
EccentricOwl said:
That werewolf one? Wow. That's really interesting. That's really, really cool, in fact- cool enough to drop into basically any game. Wow. I'm almost sad I didn't find that. It really does make you think.
Click to expand...
Here's another "who's the real monster" story from Chapter III:

In an inn, Geralt runs into Patrick, a knight. Patrick is upset and hires the Witcher to track down his missing sister, who he suspects was victimized and taken away by a vampire. Geralt eventually finds her in the local brothel, and after much investigation and confirmation of the girl's identity (read: sleeping with her), Geralt convinces Patrick that his sister is indeed a vampire and a hooker. However, Patrick is sure that the original vampire is using mind control on his sister and is forcing her to work in the brothel.

Geralt manages to infiltrate the brothel and talk to the Lady of the Night, the original vampire. But the Lady tells us that the girl is quite happy being a vampire and working here, and that men sell their entire estates to be with her for one night. She tells him that all the girls in the brothel are vampires, and they never kill or transform anyone without their consent. She also reminds Geralt that they had a mutual acquaintance, the vampire Regis, a higher vampire who didn't harm humans.

Geralt can just wipe out all the vampires. There's no cure, but if the girl was being mind-controlled then this should break the spell. Patrick and his knights will even show up to help. If he does, however, we learn that the girl really was happy working there, and she ran away from home and became a vampire hooker willingly to escape her cruel, abusive brother who was going to marry her off to a fat old merchant. The girl is distraught that you destroyed her new life and Patrick doesn't even pay you.

Alternatively, Geralt can dishonor his contract and help the vampires. This means directly killing Patrick and a group of knights (presumably some of these men are just innocent knights doing their duty), who arrive to kill the vampires. But the girl remains safe and happy and the vampires can continue their lives.


As for the Abigail/Villager one, you say that there are consequences later on? What are they? Aside from that, well, she doesn't die so I assume you run into her later.

Who is this 'Adam' character you mention?
Click to expand...
If Abigail is dead, she cannot help you solve a major quest in Chapter IV. As Guy said, the healer who is there instead will say you have "innocent blood on your hands." The quest is one where you have to send a dead girl's wraith into the beyond, and as a bonus, perhaps send her dead sister's wraith into the beyond as well. The story is this:

The village mayor's daughter Alina is engaged in arranged marriage to the wealthy merchant Julian. However, Alina's sister Celina is terribly jealous because she loves Julian. And to top it off, a local man, Adam is also jealous because he loves Alina. The two sisters have a fight, and Celina accidentally kills Alina. Adam sees this and, in a rage, kills Celina for revenge.

First, you have to deal with Adam. Do you turn him in for murder, or let him go free since he simply took vengeance and it's not really your business?

Second, now both sisters are walking the world as wraiths. If Abigail is alive, she will have the knowledge to tell Geralt that sometimes the use of poetic arguments can get through to the dead. Geralt recruits Dandelion to write a poem, and the two ghost sisters forgive each other and Alina is laid to rest (with Celina, you have to use another method not tied to this quest).

If Abigail is dead though, the healer will tell you someone has to die to get through to Alina. That someone is Adam (slightly more difficult to get him if you turned him in). Adam willingly kills himself and is finally reunited with his love in death. Again, the other sister has to be laid to rest seperately.

It's a good quest, but it's not really tied to the events of Chapter 1 except by a weird coincidence (oh, Abigail, fancy meeting you here!).
 
R

RSIK_4

Rookie
#19
May 19, 2013
In TW2 letho decision quite annoying..to let him go or kill him...
i always let him go though in the epilogue
 
G

Glaroug.531

Forum veteran
#20
May 19, 2013
Killing elves.
Click to expand...
Killing in the Witcher is not sloppy. The triumph of good is not won by by the sword and, in Star Wars: A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back fashion, the blade is only drawn as a last resort. Killing guards is hard, just simple men doing their duty. Killing Elves and Dwarves feels awful and wrong.
 
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