Bossbattle Variety

[Ouroboros612]

I'm hoping that when a final confrontation of a story arc that leads to combat do happen, the fights will have variety.

For example one confrontation could be against a prototype gunship on the 69th floor of a building where you have to strategically damage or hack specific parts of the gunship. One could be against a stealth cyborg where you have to use the environment or implants to reveal them, like shooting barrels of oil so you can see their footsteps. One example coule be 2 heavily augmented brothers that shares a life pool. One could be a survival encounter where you have to set up turrets and drones and barricade yourself up to defend hallways and survive for X minutes.

There are so many elements to designing a well implemented memorable bossfight. Unfortunately, TW3 left me wanting in this regard. Bossfights with just mechanical skills / reflexes to beat it, is fine. Like Dark Souls. I'm just hoping to see some VARIETY!

I'd hate it for every fight to be a puzzle, or for every fight to be just a show of brute force / attrition. Balance is the key, having each such fight be a memorable challenge. Where (when metagaming) you'd start a new character and go "Holy hell my character will struggle against X if it leads to a fight".

Just throwing this topic out there to ask you guys what you think would be the right and wrong ways to handle it.
As an RPG, and knowing CDPR, there will probably be many ways to avoid it all. Still, when it does happen, it shouldn't just be a pure attition fight each time IMO.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I would hope they’d rethink the whole idea of ”bossbattles”.

I’d much rather not see any ”boss” figures to defeat on an arena match (even for a combat character), but rather situations to solve in a number of ways (or leave unsolved on purpose - i.e. walk away from) where the tension and theme doesn’t revolve around one BIG enemy to defeat.

 

[Garrison72]

I would hope they’d rethink the whole idea of ”bossbattles”.

I’d much rather not see any ”boss” figures to defeat on an arena match (even for a combat character), but rather situations to solve in a number of ways (or leave unsolved on purpose - i.e. walk away from) where the tension and theme doesn’t revolve around one BIG enemy to defeat.

It should be one big enemy to defeat. Multiple ways to defeat said enemy? Sure. I don't want to go through 100 hours of gameplay without boss battles.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I don't want to go through 100 hours of gameplay without boss battles.

I do. I think ”bosses” - as explained - are a creatively lazy solution.

I’d want interesting situations to solve, not really danceoffs with ”bosses”.

 

[Garrison72]

I do. I think ”bosses” - as explained - are a creatively lazy solution.

I’d want interesting situations to solve, not really danceoffs with ”bosses”.

Then we have no crescendo during a 70 hour campaign. Imagine TW2 without our dances with Letho, the Kayren, Phillipa, Vran boss, The Operator. No thanks. I understand you're coming from a roleplaying POV, but no bosses would be...uneventful.

 

[laramshe]

For me boss fights need context, in that regard that I know whom I fighting, what kind of person/creature/monster it is.
I think the boss fight in the CP2077 gameplay video of last year was handled well.

The exoskeleton/mech the gang leader used, fitted good into the garage, because the gang would need space to store it, to store additional devices/machines to charge/refuel it, and tools if they (and they probably did) want to modify it. Above that, the boss was known, he appeared before, and he and his goons threatened V and Jackie, which established that he is not a friend. The context was there.

Aside from that, standoffs with villains are quite important for the player to receive the satisfaction of finally giving him what he deserves. This of course only works when the characters had been established prior to the boss fight, so that the player can develop the desire to beat them.

So, just throwing a seemingly random boss, of which the player knows nothing and is, at worst, just confused or annoyed of, will just leave questions like "Who?... What?... Why?!?"

 

[Snowflakez]

I do. I think ”bosses” - as explained - are a creatively lazy solution.

I’d want interesting situations to solve, not really danceoffs with ”bosses”.

I think boss battles are fine. It's the implementation that matters most.

Can you bypass the fight? In the case of Sasquatch in the latest demo, yes, you can. You don't have to fight her.
That's an important thing for me. Apparently, you can just sneak (or run?) by.

Is the boss godlike? If so, that's a problem. What's better (IMO) is to have bosses that just have unique abilities or tools that make sense within the game world. For example, if a boss has a fancy mech suit that has an autonomous shield, it makes sense for him to be tougher to defeat. You may not like it personally, which I respect, but it's at least not unrealistic for Cyberpunk 2077's universe. In the case of sasquatch, she was beefed up on juice and thus was tougher (and cybered up to hell). When you take away her energy source, she becomes much weaker and "normal," and tries to hack you instead. Again, nothing is breaking my immersion here, and you could have avoided this fight just fine.

To summarize, I have a desires/dislikes regarding boss fights.

• In a game that has freedom of gameplay (important distinction, because if this is not available I won't complain as much), forcing players to fight specific bosses, and especially forcing them to fight bosses in a specific way, is frustrating. Plz don't do it. Again, it's fine in story-based games or games where there's only really one way to play (Witcher 3).
• The boss can be tough and have lots of "health," but it should be explained and exploitable. I.E. Royce's autonomous shield can be taken down by destroying its power source, Sasquatch's strength and vitality can be mitigated by taking out her juice pack. If you just give people health because "Cybermagic," that's dumb.
• Have some bosses that you don't fight directly, but instead have to contend with their mastery over, say, security systems and turrets, robots, stuff like that. Give us some environmental hazards to take on as part of the fight, but also let us bypass them or find another route through the building.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I understand you're coming from a roleplaying POV, but no bosses would be...uneventful.

I don’t think it needs to be (uneventful). Just lacking those occasional arena matches that block progression in an unimaginative and arcade way.

Those fights fit with games like Witcher (although I’m not a fan of them there either), but when I think something thematically closer to Cyberpunk, like Deus Ex HR, it would have been waaaaay better if those boss battles were replaced with tense interactive events where the boss character is - while somewhat special compared to ordinary mooks, and while mattering more in the outcome - not extraordinary nor the central point of the event.

 

[laramshe]

In a game that has freedom of gameplay (important distinction, because if this is not available I won't complain as much), forcing players to fight specific bosses, and especially forcing them to fight bosses in a specific way, is frustrating. Plz don't do it. Again, it's fine in story-based games or games where there's only really one way to play (Witcher 3).

Perfect example would be Deus Ex: Human Revolution. You can sneak through the entire game, but boss fights force you to fight out in the open. Very bad, and odd, gameplay decision.

 

[Snowflakez]

Perfect example would be Deus Ex: Human Revolution. You can sneak through the entire game, but boss fights force you to fight out in the open. Very bad, and odd, gameplay decision.

Yes, that's precisely the example I had in mind. Glad they fixed that (somewhat) in the sequel. Could at least stay sneaky and knock them out instead of a full frontal fight.

I don’t think it needs to be (uneventful). Just lacking those occasional arena matches that block progression in an unimaginative and arcade way.

Those fights fit with games like Witcher (although I’m not a fan of them there either), but when I think something thematically closer to Cyberpunk, like Deus Ex HR, it would have been waaaaay better if those boss battles were replaced with tense interactive events where the boss character is - while somewhat special compared to ordinary mooks, and while mattering more in the outcome - not extraordinary nor the central point of the event.

What if, as I suggested above, it didn't block progression and was an optional fight that perhaps branched the story or offered extra rewards? Further, what if it was implemented realistically?

 

[Garrison72]

I don’t think it needs to be (uneventful). Just lacking those occasional arena matches that block progression in an unimaginative and arcade way.

Those fights fit with games like Witcher (although I’m not a fan of them there either), but when I think something thematically closer to Cyberpunk, like Deus Ex HR, it would have been waaaaay better if those boss battles were replaced with tense interactive events where the boss character is - while somewhat special compared to ordinary mooks, and while mattering more in the outcome - not extraordinary nor the central point of the event.

Perfect example would be Deus Ex: Human Revolution. You can sneak through the entire game, but boss fights force you to fight out in the open. Very bad, and odd, gameplay decision.

And dog shit boss fights.

 

[Hoplite_22]

Yeah this isn't really a boss fights kind of game i hope, but the level system and colour coded loot make me think they are not only there but probably way too meany of them.

for reference, any number exceeding zero is what i think of as too many. this isn't Dark souls.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

What if, as I suggested above, it didn't block progression and was an optional fight that perhaps branched the story or offered extra rewards? Further, what if it was implemented realistically?

That's what I've been trying to say.

It about theme and execution. Nonsensical (both thematically and mechanically) bossfights hurt the feel and the experience.

If Royce was making a "run for it", why wasn't the mission "catch him if you can, if you want, and live with the consequences"? And if you want and also can, let him live, or don't. Consequences to follow. You know, instead of him waiting for you to arrive at the hall and then acting like some sort of JRPG arena boss.

Same with the scavenger boss and Sasquatch (though obviously different themes for different situations).

And if a battle is what one wants... Have it please make sense. If Royce jumps into a 2077 version of BMP and drives through the wall to a courtyard where he can maneuver, it makes much more sense that you can't really harm him easily than having a red skull tag and loads HP. Destroy the vehicle someohow or smoke him out to be killed like everyone else (no highlighted appendixes to shoot at, no 9000 HP...), or die trying. And if it turns out to be impossible for your character, leave through what ever means you can - you already have the chip afterall.

I'm not arguing to get rid off boss fights per say, just to rationalize them as events and rename them believably (in so far as their functionality goes) to something less arcadey.

Post automatically merged: Jun 28, 2019

And dog shit boss fights.

Boss fights tend to be dog shit anyway.

 

[Garrison72]

That's what I've been trying to say.

It about theme and execution.

If Royce was making a "run for it", why wasn't the mission "catch him if you can, if you want, and live with the consequences"? And if you want and also can, let him live, or don't. Consequences to follow. You know, instead of him waiting for you to arrive at the hall and then acting like some sort of JRPG arena boss.

Same with the scavenger boss and Sasquatch (though obviously different themes for different situations).

And if a battle is what one wants... Have it please make sense. If Royce jumps into a 2077 version of BMP and drives through the wall to a courtyard where he can maneuver, it makes much more sense than having a red skull tag and loads HP. Destroy the vehicle someohow or smoke him out to be killed like everyone else (no highlighted appendixes to shoot at, no 9000 HP...), or die trying. And if it turns out to be impossible for your character, leave through what ever means you can - you already have the chip afterall.

Post automatically merged: Jun 28, 2019

Boss fights tend to be dog shit anyway.

No they do not. That is specifically your bias. Look dude, the reason I'm fighting you on this is you want this game to apparently be a turn-based system or nothing else. It's time to accept reality.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

No they do not. That is specifically your bias.

Can't argue for tastes, that much is true - the response was in kind to yours.

But I have been trying to explain my stance through alternatives and examples that I think really would work better in terms of the used mechanics and the themes therein, where there has been an argument that'd warrant the trouble.

 

[Garrison72]

Can't argue for tastes, that much is true - the response was in kind to yours.

But I have been trying to explain my stance through alternatives and examples that I think really would work better in terms of the used mechanics and the themes therein, where there has been an argument that'd warrant the trouble.

Have you played the previous Witcher games?

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Have you played the previous Witcher games?

Yeah. I've played all of them.

But I don't think they should be the point of reference here. If that's what you mean. As fantasy hack&slash games they are thematically so different.

 

[Mikasa_Germanota]

I hope the game has a great variety of enemies and epic boss battles

 

[Ambergeddon]

I get both sides of the coin here, hopefully this game will have alternate ways of dealing with bosses or choices that can allow you to avoid them entirely if you'd like (I like being able to talk people down myself) I know my friend was very disappointed with the newer Deus Ex games because he would build for stealth but be forced into one on one boss battles and that is something I do hope this game avoids.

I personally like to deal with problems head on and know I'd hate it if the game stopped everything and forced a crappy stealth section (looking at you otherwise fantastic Spider-Man game) or something else that brought the momentum to a crawl and killed the mood, so I feel everyone that doesn't want their sneaky fun tiems interrupted by boss battle mcgee.

 

[xer21]

• In a game that has freedom of gameplay (important distinction, because if this is not available I won't complain as much), forcing players to fight specific bosses, and especially forcing them to fight bosses in a specific way, is frustrating. Plz don't do it. Again, it's fine in story-based games or games where there's only really one way to play (Witcher 3).

See Deus Ex Human Revolution.