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Botchling/Lubberkin Order ability should have a cooldown of 2

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There are only a very few cards which can do 5 damage on deploy. Botchling/Lubberkin having a cooldown of 1 makes it impossible to counter it if you don't have lock or a card which can do 5 damage, which kind of translates to if you don't draw the lock, Botchling will be impossible to get rid of. It is not row locked too.

This makes this card one of the most insane/annoying engines in the game. Let it be its identity and let it have the cool ability of transforming into its counter part with full health, but let the opponent also has a chance to deal with it. This doesn't necessarily make this card bad (no way. It would still be insane.) as NR has enough ways to boost allies.
 
That nerf is too harsh. That would give it max 10 value for 8 provisions. For a (gold) engine, that's not worth the risk. Reducing the strength by one to bring it within sniping range should suffice.
 
This makes this card one of the most insane/annoying engines in the game
How many points can Botchling, realistically speaking, generate over the long round? NR is not having any cards with instant value, so having exactly one "not that easily removable" engine does not sound like big deal.. We are meeting again, but this time is nothing else than shameful nerf call :D

What about Vysogota? Great card, try to play without immunity.. It will generate 1 point most of the time.

Reducing the strength by one to bring it within sniping range should suffice
But why? Is NR overpowered fraction dominating the field? Even this would be just unnecessary..
 
But why? Is NR overpowered fraction dominating the field? Even this would be just unnecessary.
Giving a weak faction cards that are too strong isn't the way to fix it. Botchling is a strong engine. Does it really need a nerf? Not really, but I could see the card getting one less strength or one more provision.
 
RED Points: rrc
That nerf is too harsh. That would give it max 10 value for 8 provisions. For a (gold) engine, that's not worth the risk. Reducing the strength by one to bring it within sniping range should suffice.
I would quote Pavko as an example. 8 provisions, each round one ping and that too on Order which basically means, he is worth 99% of the time 5 point for a 8 provision Gold. But you would say I am comparing Oranges to Apples and then I would say, but Dear 4RM3D, the value an engine provides for a provision should be roughly the same, though the means can differ for each factions :p

Making it 4 health is actually the bigger nerf as it comes under a lot of unit's damage range. No other engine has the innate ability to reset/heal itself. Making it 4 would kind of make it pointless.

How many points can Botchling, realistically speaking, generate over the long round? We are meeting again, but this time is nothing else than shameful nerf call :D
How much points any engine, realistically speaking, can generate over long round. Botchling can easily generate more than any other engine and with its current state it is broken. With cooldown of 2, Botchling already needs three 3+ damages in a row to kill it (It can rest after first damage and then the opponent will have to use 2 rounds to do 5 damage provided it is not healed before that) which is pretty significant and unlike any other engines.

A smiley at the end of that statement doesn't make it less insulting or adding any fking value for the 'shameful' argument :p

What about Vysogota? Great card, try to play without immunity.. It will generate 1 point most of the time.
Yes, if he stays, he wins the game single handedly. Any extremely powerful if-you-can-keep-it-you-win cards should have very less life and enough counters. It is how the game should be. Vysogota is perfectly balanced in that regards. And yes, he is in my every single NR deck, so it Botchling, Ves, Reinforced Trebutchet.

Giving a weak faction cards that are too strong isn't the way to fix it. Botchling is a strong engine. Does it really need a nerf? Not really, but I could see the card getting one less strength or one more provision.
Thank you. I couldn't have said it better, but, though I would rather have more provision or cooldown than making it 4 power. Even with cooldown, as I had said, it would need three consecutive 3+ damage to kill it, which I think is pretty insane already.
 
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There are only a very few cards which can do 5 damage on deploy.
Few can do 5 but a lot can do 4. Pair 4 with single pings and you have a dead Botchling.

P.S. Crach can go to hell :).

That nerf is too harsh. That would give it max 10 value for 8 provisions. For a (gold) engine, that's not worth the risk. Reducing the strength by one to bring it within sniping range should suffice.
The order ability doesn't give Botchling pings. It lets you flip it between Lubberkin/Botchling. I think rrc is asking to change it so you can't flip it every turn. Instead you would have to wait 2 turns to flip it to reset it to base power. I could actually see that being alright, to be honest. Assuming NR needs nerfed. It could be argued it does not.

How many points can Botchling, realistically speaking, generate over the long round?
5 body. Play it in a 10 card round as the opening card when going second. +/- 1 point per ping. 15, not counting whatever it kills, keeps alive, synergies or value saved from flipping it? Not sure why anyone would hit it if they couldn't kill it unless you wanted to force it to flip. So the last one isn't often relevant.

Botchling can easily generate more than any other engine and with its current state it is broken.
I would dispute that :). Vysogota/Anna can unquestionably get more. Does Kiyan count as an engine if you feed it charges? That card can be worth 15 million points if you don't answer it. Foltest's Pride comes to mind. Yen: Con can probably get far more with the right board state. Most engines can take the train to murder town if left up in a long round.
 
RED Points: rrc
When talking about NR one should always remember that engine decks don't generate as much value as they could in theory, because not every card can be placed on the first turn in a round. Alas, there are quite a couple of decks (Foltest ones in particular), which don't rely on that many engines and more on single strong cards.

Nonetheless, I think giving the transformation a cooldown of 2 turns would be alright and definetly shouldn't be an overkill.
 
Shouldn't be able to flip/heal. Should at least stay the same diminished value. Does damage, hit it for four, it flips, heals, then boosts. Bit OP. I carry Thunder and a lock purely because of cards like Botchling.
 
Shouldn't be able to flip/heal. Should at least stay the same diminished value. Does damage, hit it for four, it flips, heals, then boosts. Bit OP. I carry Thunder and a lock purely because of cards like Botchling.
Except hitting Botchling for 4 if you cannot kill it makes sense in exactly zero scenarios. Okay, close to zero scenarios. Maybe if you had last say and it was the only card you would not lose value from hitting with a 4 pt damage card at the end of a game/round. Then it might make sense. Otherwise it's pretty stupid. They flip it, there goes your four damage.

I don't know why this card is getting hit with these type of complaints. It's not really the most worrisome engine in most of the engine overload decks floating around. The entire key to beating such decks, barring having enough removal to kill everything they put on the board, is to kill the correct engines, take R1 and/or bleed R2 to force a short R3. The best way to lose is to waste your removal on bronze engines or the least threatening engines. Easy fix, don't.
 
Good point. I got confused about that.
I didn't understand that you didn't understand me and went on to explain something completely out of context. Sorry about it. Yes, what I meant was, only the Order ability to Reset and Transform. Botchling and Lubberkin would anyhow be creating +1 points every single round in my proposal.
It's not really the most worrisome engine in most of the engine overload decks floating around. The entire key to beating such decks, barring having enough removal to kill everything they put on the board, is to kill the correct engines, take R1 and/or bleed R2 to force a short R3. The best way to lose is to waste your removal on bronze engines or the least threatening engines. Easy fix, don't.
I completely agree. It is not over the top engine card. But its ability to stick around if you don't have a lock is the problem here. Even the greatest engines can be handled without locks by damaging/killing them. But this one, if you don't have lock and a 5 damage card, in a long round, this can easily be worth at least 15 points (and if combined with Tridam, even more).

I would dispute that :). Vysogota/Anna can unquestionably get more. Does Kiyan count as an engine if you feed it charges? That card can be worth 15 million points if you don't answer it. Foltest's Pride comes to mind. Yen: Con can probably get far more with the right board state. Most engines can take the train to murder town if left up in a long round.
Yes. As I have mentioned before, there are various counters to other powerful engines (which can single handedly win the game). They are either row locked and/or have less life to start with and can be destroyed in two or three rounds with multiple small damages.

15 million points :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
Deathwish units can't be countered by destroying them either, as they will overcame their provisions in this way. And there are quite a number of powerfull ones, like Succubus or Manticore. And in particular the latter can easily win and exceed its provision limit.
 
I didn't understand that you didn't understand me and went on to explain something completely out of context. Sorry about it.
But you didn't know that I didn't know that you didn't know that I was thinking about something else. No apologies required.
 
RED Points: rrc
Giving a weak faction cards that are too strong isn't the way to fix it
And further nerfing is a way how to fix it? But as you said, is strong engine. I would argue is strong especially because can't be shut down easily. 1 point per round, that is hardy a game changer..

When talking about NR one should always remember that engine decks don't generate as much value as they could in theory, because not every card can be placed on the first turn in a round.
This is exactly my argument against the value calculations presented also in this thread. You will never get the ideal value with multiple engines, and honestly very few NR decks play just one.

A smiley at the end of that statement doesn't make it less insulting
I bit less so I would say :D But realistically, Botchling by itself is not going to win a single game.

It is not over the top engine card. But its ability to stick around if you don't have a lock is the problem here.
Yes, that is what I am saying all the time. So, let us complain first and later to conclude is not overpowered? :D You can find numerous plays do not requiring any setup at all, pretty much zero counters and winning the game in fact (double Zoltan with Emhyr?). So sorry, not feeling persuaded at all..

in a long round, this can easily be worth at least 15 points
Easily? :D 15 is close to theoretical maximum, not something you will get just out of the box. And regarding the interaction with Tridams, how exactly you can manage to keep them boosted? After few rounds, Tridam will be strongest card on your side and you can forget any extra value from Botchling. And on top of this, would require to play Botchling first and Tridam second, reducing value of any further engines you want to play. 15 points? Easily? Let us be serious please :D

I don't know why this card is getting hit with these type of complaints.
Well, same for me :)
 
I bit less so I would say :D But realistically, Botchling by itself is not going to win a single game.
I didn't understand the first statement, but it is hardly of any importance to the thread/discussion. I never said Botchling is a game winner. I said it is very powerful and annoying as it is kind of having immunity. If it is not locked, and if the opponent doesn't have a card which can do 5 damage (and there are very few cards which can do 5 damage on deploy), it is going to stay for the entire round. The opponent can do nothing about it. You may find it as perfect and fair, but I find it as unfair and broken.

Yes, that is what I am saying all the time. So, let us complain first and later to conclude is not overpowered? :D You can find numerous plays do not requiring any setup at all, pretty much zero counters and winning the game in fact (double Zoltan with Emhyr?). So sorry, not feeling persuaded at all..
Honestly I don't understand your first statement till the smiley and again, it is not relevant to the thread. But when you say double Zoltan doesn't need any setup, I don't know if I should laugh or feel sad. Zoltan is a 15 provision card and for it to break even, there should be 7 cards in a row. Which is highly susceptible to Lacrete or any row stack punish cards and would probably take more setup than any other engines. And you say it doesn't need any setup? I am not persuaded at all that you see this thread objectively. Of course, I have never used Zoltan once even before the nerf and hardly see it getting played. Botchling on the other hand, every single NR game (including my own NR decks).

Easily? :D 15 is close to theoretical maximum, not something you will get just out of the box. And regarding the interaction with Tridams, how exactly you can manage to keep them boosted? After few rounds, Tridam will be strongest card on your side and you can forget any extra value from Botchling. And on top of this, would require to play Botchling first and Tridam second, reducing value of any further engines you want to play. 15 points? Easily? Let us be serious please :D
Yes, in a 10 cards Round 3 (that is what I meant by long round) if I deploy Botchling, it can get me 15 unless it is locked. That is what I meant by "it can". I didn't say it will boost Tridam all the turns. I said if combined with Tridam it can get more. Aren't Tridam supposed to be played after it can be boosted? It is not an on deploy get value card.

If you think a 8 provision card which gives 6 points on Deploy and which can reset if damaged every single round and will get value even after you pass and which can synergize with other cards that needs boost is perfectly balanced and fair, well, that is your opinion. Probably your love for NR doesn't let you see this card objectively. I understand that. I play NR and I use Botchling, but when I see this card objectively, I find it is too powerful and gives much more value than its provision. No need to get personal about it. :cool:
 
Probably your love for NR doesn't let you see this card objectively. I understand that
:) you can call it like that if you want to. I am never deadly serious about anything posted on these forums.. I mean, we are still talking about card game. I made my point, you made yours. But suggesting nerf to weakest fraction based on objectivity is for me no idea to follow. I would rather see all fractions playable to at least similar extent. So, nerf all auto-include NR cards and throw the fraction to the bin? The idea of using points per provisioning cost metric as objective indicator is not plausible for me. Playing engines will be always more tricky as big bodies or deploy abilities. So I do not think such easy comparison bears either truth or objectivity. You play NR with Botchling, and what win rate are you having on which rank?

Which is highly susceptible to Lacrete or any row stack punish cards
Yes, of course it would be. But how many such cards are you having in your decks? I play only Sabrina in some, and given she is boosted as well if trying to use her with Hubert, would not call this very efficient. But again, my personal dislike for Emhyr is nothing I am trying to hide. So that much for the example. Playing NR, I can remove Botchling in multiple ways without lock- Arbalest + Vincent and he is gone, Arbalest + Ves, Seltkirk...

I didn't understand the first statement
If you want to understand, please check what I quoting. Otherwise, not sure what are quotes good for. Try to do that before moderating the thread. If reply to what you posted before is irrelevant, maybe posting it in the first place was not relevant. But agree, is out of scope to continue this kind of discussion.

Yes, in a 10 cards Round 3
Yes, if you play it as first card only and if is round 3 long. I would not call it exactly easy as the short sentence is having two ifs already. And as mentioned- it means you are delaying other engines so loosing "theoretical max" points somewhere else. And regarding the synergies, besides of Tridam I do not see any special one. Sure, it can be 15. But as best case, not easy case.
 
But suggesting nerf to weakest fraction based on objectivity is for me no idea to follow. I would rather see all fractions playable to at least similar extent. So, nerf all auto-include NR cards and throw the fraction to the bin?
The weakest faction is ST. Check the decks of the tournament going on. There is hardly any ST played. It is mainly SK, Shupe, and Meve. If you want to argue that NR is weakest, lets take the argument to the appropriate thread. For this thread and for this discussion, I only want to discuss about Botchling, objectively, in comparison with Provision and Points.

The idea of using points per provisioning cost metric as objective indicator is not plausible for me.
That explains it. I see the points per provision cost metric. If Botchling were 9 or 10 provisions, I wouldn't have created this thread. If it was 10, I might have created a post that it should be reduced tbh.

You play NR with Botchling, and what win rate are you having on which rank?
Seriously... cool off. No fking need to get personal. What rank I play what win rate I have doesn't affect this discussion. If you can't avoid getting personal, take our moderators' advice and cool off.

Yes, of course it would be. But how many such cards are you having in your decks? I play only Sabrina in some, and given she is boosted as well if trying to use her with Hubert, would not call this very efficient. .. But again, my personal dislike for Emhyr is nothing I am trying to hide....
Are we now going to discuss about Zoltan? You said Zoltan is a no-setup-required easy card and I said it was absolutely wrong saying that it needs a huge setup and is suceptible to row damage cards. How many people have how many row damage cards is irrelevant. Zoltan was a very poor and very wrong example when discussing Botchling. If you hate Emhyr and want to suggest something, please use Suggestion forum and create a post.

If you want to understand, please check what I quoting. Otherwise, not sure what are quotes good for. Try to do that before moderating the thread. If reply to what you posted before is irrelevant, maybe posting it in the first place was not relevant. But agree, is out of scope to continue this kind of discussion.
English is not my mother tongue. I *honestly* didn't understand that statement and I don't care to do a research on a phrase just to understand a trolling point.

Yes, if you play it as first card only and if is round 3 long. I would not call it exactly easy as the short sentence is having two ifs already. And as mentioned- it means you are delaying other engines so loosing "theoretical max" points somewhere else. And regarding the synergies, besides of Tridam I do not see any special one. Sure, it can be 15. But as best case, not easy case.
Tridam is never meant to be played first. He would ideally played after Sergent having one boost left or Neneke or trying to make Vyosogta survive or setting up Anna. Also, If you can't think of any other NR card that can synergize with boosted cards, I can't say anything more.

If you want to further pass on insults or sarcasm, please send me a direct message. :cool: