Boundaries and movement.

[Sardukhar]

Boundaries and movement.

Edges of the map. Terrain. Dead-ends.

How do you think CP2077 should handle boundaries? Would you like to see procedurally-generated space beyond and above the City go on forever? Would you like to see that in the Net?

Do you think the character should be able to swim? Can she or he dive? How deep the water? Would accessing locked-off areas of the map through clever jumping or swimming or even climbing tricks interest you?

Should the character be able to climb and abseil? Do you see this as an interesting tactical option to bypass FPS-style sections inside the building...or plane?

I'd be quite impressed if the world were nearly as whole as can be done. So I can swim, climb, jump and hang-glide to my heart's content.

But if I had to give up the rest, I'd trade it for climbable walls and roofs.

You?

 

[Garrison72]

I don't see swimming as a relevant feature for the setting. I do think climbing, rappelling, and minor parkour are features that will expand things beyond conventional duck-and-shoot corridor gameplay. By climbing I mean only minor heights without the aid of gadgets. With gadgets I see us ascending elevator shafts and setting zip lines between rooftops. I want the game to have a strong sense of verticality, with multiple route finding opportunities.

As to what's beyond the city, I hope we at least get to see it, if not experience part of it. It's important to let the player see and read about other parts of the world in order to give a sense of scale to the narrative. I wouldn't mind if there's some city outskirts we get to visit. Hard Reset did a good job with this in the extended edition by having the player see the desolate wastes beyond Bezoar.

 

[Aditya]

I hope we have some city outskirts too, that would be really nice.

 

[Deadbolt_Don]

As long as it doesn't break the immersion whatever they do will be fine. Examples would probably include getting blown back in Journey, or getting eaten by a giant fish in Jak and Daxter.

If only we could fit an entire universe on a chip. Gotta wait till 2077 for that.

 

[netra]

Edges of the map. Terrain. Dead-ends.

How do you think CP2077 should handle boundaries? Would you like to see procedurally-generated space beyond and above the City go on forever? Would you like to see that in the Net?

Design it so the landscape poses natural limits.

Do you think the character should be able to swim? Can she or he dive?

Yes character should be able to swim and dive.

Should the character be able to climb and abseil? Do you see this as an interesting tactical option to bypass FPS-style sections inside the building...or plane?

Absolutely, i insist on this.

 

[Sydanyo]

Well, a city is relatively easy to curtain off. I mean, it's not like every single door and window in Night City will be accessible anyways. So, there will be locked doors or doors that can't otherwise be opened. That can easily be used to create limits for movement. Sure, it's silly that some FBC can't just kick in a door, but it would be impossible to create a city where you can go anywhere and everywhere. Knowing this, the problem mostly becomes what to do with roads and such. Those have usually been blocked off by some kind of road blocks, construction, cars, and so on. Or, you could just block it off with a wall saying "you can't go here." I mean, you can't expect to be able to go everywhere, right?

If there's a road, or a tunnel, one option might be to allow movement through it to a point, after which the screen goes black and a text pops up informing the player that going that way is pointless, and the character chooses to turn back. Then you return to the beginning of the road or the tunnel, heading back into the actually important areas.

The fact is, the sandbox area will be limited, obviously; anyone who thinks it won't be or shouldn't be isn't connected to reality. So, since we admit fully that the sandbox area will be limited, the way it will be limited is rather secondary. I mean, regardless of how it's done, you'll always be able to notice it.

 

[braindancer12]

I don't see swimming as a relevant feature for the setting. I do think climbing, rappelling, and minor parkour are features that will expand things beyond conventional duck-and-shoot corridor gameplay. By climbing I mean only minor heights without the aid of gadgets. With gadgets I see us ascending elevator shafts and setting zip lines between rooftops. I want the game to have a strong sense of verticality, with multiple route finding opportunities.

As to what's beyond the city, I hope we at least get to see it, if not experience part of it. It's important to let the player see and read about other parts of the world in order to give a sense of scale to the narrative. I wouldn't mind if there's some city outskirts we get to visit. Hard Reset did a good job with this in the extended edition by having the player see the desolate wastes beyond Bezoar.

i think the same way.....One thing is sure NO invicible walls!

 

[Decatonkeil]

I want the game to have a strong sense of verticality, with multiple route finding opportunities.

This verticality can be very interesting in both the gameplay and aesthetic. I like hive-like cyberpunk cities and I wonder how they could use the shadows these tall and dense groups of buildings can cast in conjunction with a day and night cycle. It's already been talked about if Night City has a daytime (which it obviously does)... but we didn't really see the sky in the trailer, right? Reminds me of the well city in The Incal, where only the higher classes got to live in the "higher rings" where the sky was visible. There's even cinematography theories of composition that take into account the "lines in the frame" and what emotions they transmit (if we look up we'll be lucky if we can see a small patch of sky surrounded by rooftops, and this will enhance the feeling of being oppressed).

As long as it doesn't break the immersion whatever they do will be fine. Examples would probably include getting blown back in Journey, or getting eaten by a giant fish in Jak and Daxter. .

The all time fans sure could know what is possible and what not, and transform those examples in things that fit the settings internal logic. Should these be punishing like getting shot on sight in a Berlin-like-wall or having our health deplete when we spend too much time in a radioactive wasteland (did getting eaten by the fish even cost you a life or collectibles? would it be too much for an RPG?) or something more forgiving like this redirecting in Journey?

The fact is, the sandbox area will be limited, obviously; anyone who thinks it won't be or shouldn't be isn't connected to reality. So, since we admit fully that the sandbox area will be limited, the way it will be limited is rather secondary. I mean, regardless of how it's done, you'll always be able to notice it.

And that's not just understandable, but also good for gameplay. If we could break into every appartment and rob it... maybe we would procrastinate way too much. I want to believe that players can see when they should stop... but some can be too obsesive compulsive...

 

[Sardukhar]

Macleod, have you not played ArmA 2 or Day Z?

When you hit the "limits" of the map, it starts generating tiles. Endlessly. So you can wander through a forest followed by scrub followed by hills, followed by forset again, or hills, or scrub...

I had this happen to me in Day Z, before I knew that's how they dealt with boundaries. Half an hour later...

Blocking things off with walls that say, "you can't go here" is poor design decision. Fooling the player into "making" that decision him or herself is much slicker. Having your AV-4 bump against an invisible wall above is fairly clumsy - having an altimeter warning and engine failure is not.

But much of what we're talking about are boundaries on your movement style, not which doors are open or not. Swimming, climbing, flying. Deus Ex HR had very defined boundaries both in the personal and geographic sense. World of Warcraft had less. Where would people like CP2077 to fall in that spectrum?

And again, deciding CDPR's resources for them isn't too wise - they may well have decided to make every waterway enterable, full climbing everywhere and a city surrounded by endless desert, already.

 

[Sydanyo]

Macleod, have you not played ArmA 2 or Day Z?

Nope.

When you hit the "limits" of the map, it starts generating tiles. Endlessly. So you can wander through a forest followed by scrub followed by hills, followed by forset again, or hills, or scrub...

Well, I suppose this might work to an extent outside Night City, but it wouldn't be very logical inside the city limits, unless you throw realism as far as the map of Night City goes out the window. Also, I'm not exactly sure if an endlessly generated line of random tiles would be much better than simply stopping the character and turning him around.

Blocking things off with walls that say, "you can't go here" is poor design decision. Fooling the player into "making" that decision him or herself is much slicker. Having your AV-4 bump against an invisible wall above is fairly clumsy - having an altimeter warning and engine failure is not.

Yeah, of course. It's much more fun if you never realize you're in a small box, but if that's the thing that peoples' attention is drawn to, then there's something wrong with the game to begin with. If it's a great game, you don't really pay much attention to that. I mean, Skyrim for example has some places where you just run against a wall, and all of it's cities are separate instances from the game world, so you can't even jump over the wall and run out. It's never bothered me though, and I don't see why it would.

But much of what we're talking about are boundaries on your movement style, not which doors are open or not. Swimming, climbing, flying. Deus Ex HR had very defined boundaries both in the personal and geographic sense. World of Warcraft had less. Where would people like CP2077 to fall in that spectrum?

And again, deciding CDPR's resources for them isn't too wise - they may well have decided to make every waterway enterable, full climbing everywhere and a city surrounded by endless desert, already.

I'm not sure there'll be many places in Cyberpunk 2077 where you would have to swim, so I don't see that as a problem. I don't expect us to leave Night City to wonder out in the wastes or even see the ocean at any point, except perhaps from a window or a balcony. As far as flying goes, I don't think we'll be free flying in Night City.

Imagine the insane amount of work they would have to do just to allow that. They would have to create the city a mile high vertically. Then there would obviously have to be air traffic, and the handling of that and how you interact with air traffic would obviously be a thing of it's own. I don't see them going that route at all. Any flying bits we will have will most likely be on rails.

 

[Garrison72]

Nope.



Well, I suppose this might work to an extent outside Night City, but it wouldn't be very logical inside the city limits, unless you throw realism as far as the map of Night City goes out the window. Also, I'm not exactly sure if an endlessly generated line of random tiles would be much better than simply stopping the character and turning him around.

This. Either way there has to be a perimeter, and as long as the city itself is open, I'm not annoyed by a natural barricade at its edge. For TW3, they'll apparently have the fast travel map pop up if the player hits the edge of the game world.

 

[wisdom000]

Macleod, have you not played ArmA 2 or Day Z?

When you hit the "limits" of the map, it starts generating tiles. Endlessly. So you can wander through a forest followed by scrub followed by hills, followed by forset again, or hills, or scrub...

I had this happen to me in Day Z, before I knew that's how they dealt with boundaries. Half an hour later...

Blocking things off with walls that say, "you can't go here" is poor design decision. Fooling the player into "making" that decision him or herself is much slicker. Having your AV-4 bump against an invisible wall above is fairly clumsy - having an altimeter warning and engine failure is not.

But much of what we're talking about are boundaries on your movement style, not which doors are open or not. Swimming, climbing, flying. Deus Ex HR had very defined boundaries both in the personal and geographic sense. World of Warcraft had less. Where would people like CP2077 to fall in that spectrum?

And again, deciding CDPR's resources for them isn't too wise - they may well have decided to make every waterway enterable, full climbing everywhere and a city surrounded by endless desert, already.

Night city is a coastal city, obviously there will be water. So yes, the character should be able to swim... don't care if he can dive or not, but in this day and age, drowning in 3 feet of water is just poor game design.

However, at least a quarter of night city is surrounded by land (NC sits on the tip of a bay, like san francisco). So there needs to be land.... For this portion I quite like the idea of endless randomly generated terrqain as you get farther out... obviously I believe there shoudl be wasteland anyway, with things in it, but beyond that, how hard is it to just have flat desert? How is that any harder that endless sea? If there do need to be landlock boundaries, mountains works. The only way it doesn't is if there are aircraft. But then you just institute a "no fly zone" where the military has set up anti-aircraft batteries that start shooting at you if you cross the threshold.

Nope.



Well, I suppose this might work to an extent outside Night City, but it wouldn't be very logical inside the city limits, unless you throw realism as far as the map of Night City goes out the window. Also, I'm not exactly sure if an endlessly generated line of random tiles would be much better than simply stopping the character and turning him around.[

Why would there be limits inside the city? That would be pretty poor game design.

I'm not sure there'll be many places in Cyberpunk 2077 where you would have to swim, so I don't see that as a problem. I don't expect us to leave Night City to wonder out in the wastes or even see the ocean at any point, except perhaps from a window or a balcony. As far as flying goes, I don't think we'll be free flying in Night City.

Night city is surrounded on three sides by water... and there is a lake in the middle of city center. Of course there will be water. And they have already said that they plan on putting areas outside the city to explore.

Imagine the insane amount of work they would have to do just to allow that. They would have to create the city a mile high vertically. Then there would obviously have to be air traffic, and the handling of that and how you interact with air traffic would obviously be a thing of it's own. I don't see them going that route at all. Any flying bits we will have will most likely be on rails.

Um.... you are making this a much bigger deal than it is. There is already going to be air traffic, we have seen that much already in the trailer. A modern city without air traffic would just be bloody weird. Sleeping Dogs and Saints Row 1were the only worthwhile sandbox game that allowed vehicles that didn't allow flight to come out in the last 10 years. And in Cyberpunk 2020 Aerodynes are pretty much mandatory.

You are acting like this is something that has never been done before...

 

[Sardukhar]

If we have vehicles, I really hope the air travel is not on rails. I'm not sure why it would have to be, save in terms of locking off unexplored areas. Which you could do with a governor, or as Wisdom says, military airspace. Or, since it's Cyberpunk, Corporate-controlled airspace. No pass, no go. You could even let the pases be hacked when you were skilled enough, i.e. more than half0way through the game.

I could survive having no swimming, but it would seem weird. Night City has loads of water. CP2020 has loads of water-oriented cyber and skills.

The advantage of generated tilesets outside NC is that it gives the developers a chance to have you die of thirst. Or drown. While enjoying the view. And not feeling hemmed-in. "Yeah, I -could- spend an hour driving along the highway, but I always seem to be interdicted by HiWay and sent home. When I walk it, holy COW that's a long way!"

I'm all about amusing new ways to kill players.

 

[d1am0ndback]

Night City should be a fixed location with natural boundaries, with full exploration. Well, except of course for the damned checkpoints.

As for the outlying no man's desert land should be the neverending generating tiles of legend. The desert should be a place where the environment changes our character. Run out of gas on your aerodyne escaping the corporate fascist assholes in Night City should make us feel a disconnect from technology. Crap starts to stop working on you and you can hear classic country music somewheres off in the distance.

 

[Sydanyo]

Night city is surrounded on three sides by water... and there is a lake in the middle of city center. Of course there will be water. And they have already said that they plan on putting areas outside the city to explore.

Well, the way I understood it was that Night City in 2077 won't be exactly the same as Night City in 2020, as in it'll be more to the north (it has spread that way), and it will be much larger in size. Allowing access to the ocean would be a bit of a tricky thing as far as boundaries go, since it's much harder to create virtual borders in an open ocean than it is with city streets and such. But yeah, maybe there'll be swimming. I just don't see it being as an integral part of the game, seeing as though swimming, or rather diving, usually requires a skill and gear, and I doubt they'll require the character to have those unless they're automatic.

Um.... you are making this a much bigger deal than it is. There is already going to be air traffic, we have seen that much already in the trailer. A modern city without air traffic would just be bloody weird. Sleeping Dogs and Saints Row 1were the only worthwhile sandbox game that allowed vehicles that didn't allow flight to come out in the last 10 years. And in Cyberpunk 2020 Aerodynes are pretty much mandatory.

While I don't think the trailer has anything to do with the actual game, it being just a rendered video, I agree there's most likely going to be air traffic. However, it's much much easier to just have the air traffic "up there somewhere", all of it or even a part of it perhaps just 2D, rather than having actual 3D models whizzing around everywhere constantly at several different altitudes. Not to mention then making it in any way realistic for the player to integrate with that traffic.

I mean hey, it would be awesome if they would allow completely free movement in the Night City air space, and if they would fill it up with thousands of air vehicles, and if they created all the skyscrapers from ground up so you can for example park on one and go inside, but I just don't see it being quite that realistic. Time will tell, of course.

You are acting like this is something that has never been done before...

Well, perhaps I haven't seen it done before. Do you have a title in mind? A game where there's a futuristic city filled with skyscrapers, complete with dense air traffic, and one where you can fly around freely? I mean, I know there are plenty of games that simulate cities on the ground level, but I don't remember seeing any where there's the ground level simulated as well as all of the (hover car) air traffic as well.

 

[wisdom000]

Well, the way I understood it was that Night City in 2077 won't be exactly the same as Night City in 2020, as in it'll be more to the north (it has spread that way), and it will be much larger in size. Allowing access to the ocean would be a bit of a tricky thing as far as boundaries go, since it's much harder to create virtual borders in an open ocean than it is with city streets and such. But yeah, maybe there'll be swimming. I just don't see it being as an integral part of the game, seeing as though swimming, or rather diving, usually requires a skill and gear, and I doubt they'll require the character to have those unless they're automatic.



While I don't think the trailer has anything to do with the actual game, it being just a rendered video, I agree there's most likely going to be air traffic. However, it's much much easier to just have the air traffic "up there somewhere", all of it or even a part of it perhaps just 2D, rather than having actual 3D models whizzing around everywhere constantly at several different altitudes. Not to mention then making it in any way realistic for the player to integrate with that traffic.

I mean hey, it would be awesome if they would allow completely free movement in the Night City air space, and if they would fill it up with thousands of air vehicles, and if they created all the skyscrapers from ground up so you can for example park on one and go inside, but I just don't see it being quite that realistic. Time will tell, of course.



Well, perhaps I haven't seen it done before. Do you have a title in mind? A game where there's a futuristic city filled with skyscrapers, complete with dense air traffic, and one where you can fly around freely? I mean, I know there are plenty of games that simulate cities on the ground level, but I don't remember seeing any where there's the ground level simulated as well as all of the (hover car) air traffic as well.

You have some pretty weird misconceptions about things. Cyberpunk is NOT 5th Element, the air traffic is really not all that much more dense than in
in any major city. Both SR2 and San Andreas had about the right amount of air traffic.

And Nc already sits on the north tip, it cant go any further north unless it jumps the bay entirely.

 

[Lolssi83.811]

Well what I've read about Witcher 3 and REDengine 3 can give us some clues. We can jump and fall from heights. Also in Witcher 3 you can steer boat(s?).

Ok jumping and heights maybe we won't get bested by every little obstacle now. Loved trying to find alternate paths and secrets in Deus Ex with my boosted legs.
Hopefully enemies can also fall from places. Hate in some games when fighting on high places but you can't knock enemies down.

Ok if boats are possible I don't see swimming to be that far off. If you can fall of from pier I'd assume you will swim after that (unless we have guy that never learned to swim) or drown Diving might be bit harder to implement. Still very doable by the time of 2077 with the twenty man engine team that CDPR has. You can find awesome secrets / passages underwater even though I'm personally scared of water in games (drowning, dark, monsters, guns won't work)

I wouldn't like map that just creates random vistas forever. This is CDPR after all who take pride by handcrafting quests so hopefully quality over quantity with map and visuals also. Though loved the D1amondback's idea of technology having problems in desert.

 

[gregski]

If they are able to pull off proper horse-riding mechanic in TW3, making driveable cars is going to be piece of cake.

 

[Garrison72]

I wasn't aware so much of NC was surrounded by water. I still fail to see the gameplay potential of swimming though. It adds nothing to any of the city style open world games I've played. As for flying, the no fly zone idea seems good to me. Fly into the wrong air space and anti-air missiles are headed your way.

 

[gregski]

I wasn't aware so much of NC was surrounded by water. I still fail to see the gameplay potential of swimming though. It adds nothing to any of the city style open world games I've played. As for flying, the no fly zone idea seems good to me. Fly into the wrong air space and anti-air missiles are headed your way.

And then you have to evade them in a QTE sequence...

just kidding