Breaking The Habit

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Breaking The Habit

A song by Linkin Park otherwise. Recently i saw a Gwent video from a YouTuber with the title "[Gwent] Control Doesn't Exist". Through out the video i was trying to understand were the issue or concern lies and my only conclusion is that Gwent takes a different approach than the standard CCG's, so it breaks the familiarity. As i say in the comments of the video, ultimately, the issue is being uncomfortable because habit is a powerful addiction.

Here we don't see ourselves as a Hero with a limited HP. Here we have 3 rounds, we are compelled to think ahead and strategize accordingly (most of the times). Nevertheless there is a comment i find quite efficient at replying his questions:

Caio Pelichek Gonçalves
Hi Swim! I'm a game designer, and also a big fan! Now, here's a brick wall of text about control on Gwent (xD)

Although Gwent isn't, to my knowledge, like any other card game out there, it doesn't mean it doesn't have it's own form of a control archetype. Is it better than the mid range strategies out there? Probably not, but there are enough control elements to justify the possibility of playing a straight control deck, even if it isn't good. On your video you just mention a mouthful of them! But let's not forget meta calls like using Manticore Venon for smacking down Henselt's Siege Towers, and also Cyprian Wiley (which I find curious you didn't mention, since I think you made it such a popular card right now) for dealing with Nekkers/Queensguard/Roach. Another thing to consider, is that the way ST's trap cards work contributes for the very fact that control isn't more popular right now, because most control options don't work against them, rendering such strategies fruitless in a ST-heavy environment. Should the 'trap immunity' be re-worked, there would be more room for control to rise and shine.

That being said, you can play the role of a control deck, even if you don't consider your card choices to be control heavy or intended to control at all. For example, after you won round 1 and on round 2 you just want to 'bleed cards' from your opponent, going for card advantage with Ciri, Ocvist and spies, and making they play in sub-optimal conditions for they can't afford passing. For that matter, I had a very sucesful run with Bekker's Twisted Mirror recently just because my opponents thought it was safe to pass early just because I played a big spy, making they think I can't win with only one card, them after they pass BTM come's down and it's a very satisfying GG.

By playing the role of a control deck, you're playing towards that archetype, even if you doesn't feel like that tag belongs on your deck, but let's face it, decks build around leader's like Henselt, Herald, ST in general, weather Monster, they all play in a control fashion. Radovid is just a more clear form of control, most of the time he forces your opponent on playing around him if they can, but same could be said about Dagon - if Dagon was just a Rally, he wouldn't be near as popular, but just the treat of weather makes him much more valuable, making just that control the flow of the game. Even Nilfgaard has a very, very powerful control card in the form of Letho, which if played on the right moment against most of the decks just means your opponent forfeits straight away, because their whole strategy just got banished.

Because the card pool of Gwent is still very limited, and decks try to be the most efficient and only play the minimum amount of cards required, there's not an easy way to build a pure archetype of control that works and effectively wins most of the times, and the same could be said about aggro, hence the feeling of most of the decks being mid range. Still we are just a couple of cards away from pure control (or aggro!) strategies to emerge.

Anyway, sorry for bothering with this one brick wall, but hopefully it just adds to the debate in a positive way! Wish you all who had the patience to ready all that stuff have a great day!


We have to consider the fact that the game is in CBT and as in any other CCG, more cards, Leaders, Factions even and mechanics may be presented at some point. CCG's more than any other game genre even are evolving in time, changing the meta in every single implementation of updates. Another big difference is the rewards that Gwent gives just for participating in CBT (very important for folks like me, F2P accounts).

My personal issue is the incentives the game gives to build different decks, to reward you for taking the risk to play cards/decks out of the meta. One of my favorite Youtubers is AdamNadrac because he plays decks that are different. People calling them meme decks and i do not coprehend the term honestly. Gaming is about having fun, not falling into a routine and thinking, "I have to do this!" and such. If you are not having fun you are doing it wrong. If you only have fun by winning you are doing it wrong. But that's just me i guess.

Even in the game's deck builder you could incentivize adversity. At the same spot craft cards, more elaborate and easy to use Filter system too. And ofc. i do hope in the future more cards will give that incentive, punish predictability, reward the risk to try something different. The issue with the game is not the lack of familiarity and archetypes, the issue is the lack of incentives to break the meta consistently. And if you say, "Every CCG has this issue", well, it is time to being comfortable with the unexpected.


Closing, i think the game needs more regular updates. Times like these it feels like everyone has left the building. From having a Dev diary or roadmap for the game, to make quick balances (cards like Milva, just make her ability trigger before Roach fcol.), everything helps to keep the audience interested. Things like having simple surveys send (the Suggestion subforum is ok too) but taking so much time even in CBT feels like neglection almost, at least to some i am sure.

Hope for the best, best regards, cheers to all.
 
I don't get why people are so pissed at Milva + Roach. It's literally her only use as of right now (the only one else I can think of is Milva + Barclay but dwarves aren't really popular), and outside of getting card advantage with Roach you can't return anything valuable to hand. Elven Mercenary relentless, and using a golden slot for 8 raw power + one more Vrihedd Dragoon buff/Vrihedd Brigade Neophyte is meh. Changing Milva would automatically change Vilgefortz, Bekker's Twisted Mirror, Yennefer, Saskia, Keira etc and to some of them the Roach appearing beforehand is vital (like empty board BT Mirror).
 
KasumiGoto;n8504020 said:
I don't get why people are so pissed at Milva + Roach. It's literally her only use as of right now (the only one else I can think of is Milva + Barclay but dwarves aren't really popular), and outside of getting card advantage with Roach you can't return anything valuable to hand. Elven Mercenary relentless, and using a golden slot for 8 raw power + one more Vrihedd Dragoon buff/Vrihedd Brigade Neophyte is meh. Changing Milva would automatically change Vilgefortz, Bekker's Twisted Mirror, Yennefer, Saskia, Keira etc and to some of them the Roach appearing beforehand is vital (like empty board BT Mirror).

The point about Milva+roach is CA that you cant do anything about. Same thing like with ciaran, you cant stop it. And while you could say that you are wasting value with that, ST can replay scorch billions of times that you usually never have the chance to play your highstrength cards last to save them from scorch and THATS the issue with milva+roach (and with ST in general).

Also who says that all the cards you mentioned should be changed. I dont see how Milva+Roach is the same mechanic like Vilgefortz, Bekkers, Yennefer, Saskia, Keira and so on. Roach always comes out of your deck if a gold card is played and all the gold cards you mentioned have no additional effects for the opponent if there is a card. Milva has one and thats where the issue comes from. An easy fix for this would be that Milva only returns card if both players have a card on the board (similar to the condition that Cahir, Cynthia and Albrich have with both players having not passed yet) and besides I don't think that when CDPR designed Milva they designed her with the intention that she is used for unbeatable CA in 90% of her uses...
 
There will invariably be balance issues while the game is being built. It's just the nature of design. Sometimes, it literally boils to trial and error to find the balance. While it's very easy to look at something that I, personally, have seen a thousand times that annoys me, it's far more difficult for me to remember that such is only my own, very unique experience. (What I find "absolutely unacceptable" might be "fun" for the next person!)

The next big jump is taking on universal design. Relinquishing my own opinions and preferences and looking at the product as it is now as objectively as humanly possible. That...is really hard to do. Even after that, trying to judge whether what I'm seeing is actually fine, a mistake that simply needs a tiny tweak, something that should be scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up, or something that should be cut completely...is even harder. Plus, how will a change affect the overall product? This takes time and testing. And any new thing may upset the balance all over again.

That's why updates are, perhaps, more rare than some players would like to see. Besides, lots of little, continuous updates are actually a rather bad way to handle things (my personal opinion here). Not only does it mean sooo many more issues will slip through the cracks, it makes it hellish when trying to figure out what is and isn't still an issue. e.g. A Short Play:

A: "Hey, this is still broken!"

B: "Yeah...me too!"

C: "Works on my end, version 0.227.

B: "Oh...I'm still using 0.223..."

A: "I am using 0.227!"

C: "Hotfix 8?"

A: "No...Hotfix 6. Hotfix 7 wouldn't work on Windows 10. I didn't even realize Hotifix 8 was out."

D: "0.226 Hotfix 8???"

A: "No, 0.227."

E: "Is 0.223 released for Xbox yet?"

:facepalm2:

(Curtain.)
 
Strollin;n8504330 said:
The point about Milva+roach is CA that you cant do anything about. Same thing like with ciaran, you cant stop it. And while you could say that you are wasting value with that, ST can replay scorch billions of times that you usually never have the chance to play your highstrength cards last to save them from scorch and THATS the issue with milva+roach (and with ST in general).

Also who says that all the cards you mentioned should be changed. I dont see how Milva+Roach is the same mechanic like Vilgefortz, Bekkers, Yennefer, Saskia, Keira and so on. Roach always comes out of your deck if a gold card is played and all the gold cards you mentioned have no additional effects for the opponent if there is a card. Milva has one and thats where the issue comes from. An easy fix for this would be that Milva only returns card if both players have a card on the board (similar to the condition that Cahir, Cynthia and Albrich have with both players having not passed yet) and besides I don't think that when CDPR designed Milva they designed her with the intention that she is used for unbeatable CA in 90% of her uses...

I meant that the mechanic is the same because first the golden card appears, then roach appears, then the golden card triggers its' ability. If you changed Milva so that Roach comes after her, it'd affect all the mentioned cards as well (Roach coming after Keira - MegaMogwai's combo not possible anymore, Yennefer wouldn't give additional +2 for Roach, Vilgefortz wouldn't be able to burn Roach etc)
 
I think Roach is not working as intended regarding Milva/Vilgefortz/Kayran, but right now it gives 3 different factions a necessary buff due to the OP of Henselt, Foltest and Harald.

I'd like to see Roach nerfed a bit so that she's not an autoinclude in 90% of the decks, but right now she is making those factions much more playable.
 
Hello

I cannot say too much about Roach, because i dont have this Card but ive seen him like 300 times and i just dont see why people are so fixed on combos with Roach.
For example (Happens yesterday). Ive played consume, my opponent Movran. Ive won the first round, it was the second. He has already used a Igni, i was like 30 points ahaid mostly with a Vran.
Then he played Vilgafortz. As soon as ive seen him i knew the Game was over but NO. Instead of using vilgafortz to burn my strongest Card, he used him on Roach, gained 1 Card and then Tryed to catch up with his points. I couldnt believe what ive seen, he clearly had won this match. Of course he wasnt able to catch up and ive kept my Vran for the next round.

This is just the latest example, ive won alot of Games because of such mistakes.
From my sight: I dont need Roach for my own Decks but i love this Card. Roach FTW!

PinkFloyd76;n8503250 said:
The issue with the game is not the lack of familiarity and archetypes, the issue is the lack of incentives to break the meta consistently.

I cannot fully subscribe to that, but you are right.
A point ive mentoined before is that the Game has a different Matchmaking for Casual and Ladder Games.
My suggestion ist to make them the same with 1 Match-Pool and just dont give rewards in Casual matches (Because of abusive).
Devs didnt react instantkly to this but maybe they will think about that. This would solve some problems to avoid this "Netdecking only" problem.

In my experience: I am always trying new Decks, thats what i do all the time.
Ive stucked on Rank 9, lost alot of MMR because of testing Decks in Ladder Games and with a new Combo another user in this Forum used in his Fundeck (Ive tested the Combo and ive build a new Deck around it), i was able to climb the Ladder grom1200MMR to 3000+ MMR in one rush.
The Deck i came up with: Weather control with Iris/Caretaker Combo.
This combo is extremely potent in swarm Decks, thats why you see it more and more often along with Consume-Decks, but until now ive didnt seen any "Million MMR-Decks" using this combo.

As in this example: Even without new Cards you can still break the Meta.
BUT: Not with Net-Decks. Thats what most ppl dont understand.
If a High-Ladder Gamer shares his best Meta-Breaker Deck with the Community, the Deck itself geds Meta.
High-Ladder Gamers get fame from Deck-Sharing and they pour their own positions into cement, making it harder for lower-ranked players to catch up.
Very clever, by the way.

PinkFloyd76;n8503250 said:
Closing, i think the game needs more regular updates. Times like these it feels like everyone has left the building. From having a Dev diary or roadmap for the game, to make quick balances (cards like Milva, just make her ability trigger before Roach fcol.), everything helps to keep the audience interested. Things like having simple surveys send (the Suggestion subforum is ok too) but taking so much time even in CBT feels like neglection almost, at least to some i am sure.

Sign!
ATM im working on a new Layout for the Forums ill post as a suggestion.
The planned Layout deals with most of these problems. Including a small Chat where the Devs could "Twitter" from time to time and some other community-related improvements.

Greetings
Faustus
 
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Faustus800;n8505300 said:
Hello

I cannot say too much about Roach, because i dont have this Card but ive seen him like 300 times and i just dont see why people are so fixed on combos with Roach.
For example (Happens yesterday). Ive played consume, my opponent Movran. Ive won the first round, it was the second. He has already used a Igni, i was like 30 points ahaid mostly with a Vran.
Then he played Vilgafortz. As soon as ive seen him i knew the Game was over but NO. Instead of using vilgafortz to burn my strongest Card, he used him on Roach, gained 1 Card and then Tryed to catch up with his points. I couldnt believe what ive seen, he clearly had won this match. Of course he wasnt able to catch up and ive kept my Vran for the next round.

This is just the latest example, ive won alot of Games because of such mistakes.
From my sight: I dont need Roach for my own Decks but i love this Card. Roach FTW!

Probably because the guide on gwentDB said to use Vilgefortz on Roach.
No matter what it takes. :smiling2:
 
SigilFey;n8504740 said:
That's why updates are, perhaps, more rare than some players would like to see.

I understand it for now, being in CBT, but after wipe i hope they'll be more regular, that's all. What i mean is, if a card is not working as intended (Milva say), then a quick update wouldn't be bad. If it is working as intended, ok then. If not, why spend all that time with that broken mechanic? I almost have feelings of desperation because i cannot counter, it's not that i am stupid, it is because some ppl. will use whatever exploits the game will give them. It's not an ethical world.
 
PinkFloyd76;n8507070 said:
I understand it for now, being in CBT, but after wipe i hope they'll be more regular, that's all. What i mean is, if a card is not working as intended (Milva say), then a quick update wouldn't be bad. If it is working as intended, ok then. If not, why spend all that time with that broken mechanic? I almost have feelings of desperation because i cannot counter, it's not that i am stupid, it is because some ppl. will use whatever exploits the game will give them. It's not an ethical world.

I think you're getting a little ahead of the situation. It's great that you wish to see the game in "ship-shape" (we all do!), but the framework for the hull isn't even fully constructed yet. The key is: there's a lot we don't know. CDPR has this...habit (;))...of creating really unique and interesting gameplay mechanics that no one ever saw coming. I doubt it's much different here. That's why I refer to things that are "obvious" in quotations. Yes, "obvious"...according to what we can see. Likely, not so much if we knew the grand plan.

Besides, I doubt anyone here would ever actually say, "Yes, as of the open beta, players can expect much more regular updates!" It's a promise that there is no guarantee can be kept. Simply too much can change or go wrong. Plus, there are many, many things that are as important or more important than "content and balance". Some good perfect balance does if servers keep disconnecting, or the game won't start, for example.

Fear not about exploits and whatnot -- that's exactly what the beta tests are for! Stay current on this sticky thread for known issues, and maybe read through the linked threads on this page to get some tips, pointers, and tactics.
 
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