Main quests should scale to player lvl or just bosses. I play for the story and the ( hopefully) challenge. Why would scaling lvl req be such a bad design?
Sorry! I should have read all post before quoting. still think the main quest/bosses/contracts scaling could work.
---------- Updated at 06:11 PM ----------
I feel the same except that ther should always be plenty of badasses in the world who are a challenge. All bosses should be difficult. If you have a tough time there the easy setting.
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Sadly only the combat is better compared to the rest of the series. The main quest line is a search story wich ends with a fight with a caracter that was more fleshed out i the witcher 2 (you really felt dread and resect for Eredin and the riders) despite the fact that he's only shown in cutscenes.
And skills are laughable too. Your damage output depends only on your level. But you know what's WORSE. The breaking of immersion when a pack of ghouls kills you despite of the fact that you killed many more of their kind in the past, WHY? BEACAUSE NUMBERS ABOVE THEIR HEADS THATH WHY. And the sollution could be giving the stronger ones other skins like graivers and Cementars in TW1.
And skills are laughable too. Your damage output depends only on your level. But you know what's WORSE. The breaking of immersion when a pack of ghouls kills you despite of the fact that you killed many more of their kind in the past, WHY? BEACAUSE NUMBERS ABOVE THEIR HEADS THATH WHY. And the sollution could be giving the stronger ones other skins like graivers and Cementars in TW1.
1 and 2 i like but 3 not so much. I like to discover high lvl quests that are out of my reach for the moment. So some quest should be red and findable from the start.
---------- Updated at 06:30 PM ----------
So all humans are equally good at fighting? Why cant some ghouls be stronger and more experienced than some teenage ghouls? just a thought.
How many people aim above their level? I've completed some red quests and completed many red leveled monsters about 2-3 level's above me, and I feel no restriction on the open world or exploration. It's just the rewards I often get for defeating tough opponents or finding stashes. If anything, this gear should level up to the player but instead I'm pawing off suit after suit of specialized armor. Then there's the diagrams I get that are literally 10-15 levels above me and I have to sit on them, and when I get leveled up enough to wear them, there's a good chance they'll be worthless...
I couldn't agree more. That's the perfect recipe!
For the life of me I cannot understand why the Devolepers went with that mess of a MMO-inspired level gating (with damage reductions basing on level, monster damage scaling basing on level, level locking equipment), instead of the "traditional" cRPG approach.
It's not rocket science. Like BoboTheMighty pointed out, it has been done numerous times before, The Gothic series is the perfect example. A game the Developers claimed to have taken heavy inspiration from... well, sadly I cannot see it.
Or hell, Might and Magic World of Xeen was built like that (and that was an open world of old... sort of). OR most classic cRPGs for that matter.
Bethesda started the trend with the silly open world level scaling... And somehow CDProjekt RED managed to develop an even worse system.
Again, why the hell are the drowners in this area 10x stronger then the rest?
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Gosh, I'm really glad I'm not the only one seeing the massive flaws in this. Thank you!
And here's the most ironic thing: One of the devs were saying that they really wanted to NOT have all those "gamey" mechanics in the game. But then they went and used the most over-used and quite frankly, completely unnecessary "gamey" mechanic of all: Levelling!
I am absolutely convinced that The Witcher 3 should have been a game in which all creatures' strengths and vulnerabilities are mimicked in reality. No numbered levels and such. No level restrictions and level-gated gear.
I don't want to see a level number on every single thing in the game! I want to measure a monster's element of danger based on the information I have for that monster, their size and whatever other attributes they have.
THAT would have been a true Masterpiece of a game. I would have felt like a true WITCHER playing that game!
This is the one thing that (for me) would have made this the greatest RPG of all time.
What makes me sad is that CDPR is apparently turning a blind eye to this.
Currently on my NG+ playthrought:
-Enemy level scaling with the optional file that strong monsters (golems, gravehags, gargylos etc) and bosses are always at least 6 levels above Geralt. With this mod normal monsters like a group of wolves or drowners are manageable but can still be challenging if there are a lot of them, while strong monsters are always challenging.
http://www.nexusmods.com/witcher3/mods/442/?
- grey quests give exp
http://www.nexusmods.com/witcher3/mods/414/?
- Learned skills and perks are always active and do not need to be equipped. With the level scaling mod some enemies can be really tough and this mod balances it out. I don't have to waste my limited slots for skills that Geralt should know from the start like parrying arrows.
http://www.nexusmods.com/witcher3/mods/416/?
With this mods the game is not only more challenging, but it is also more lore friendly
Geralt is a fully trained monster hunter. He shouldn't get much stronger during the few weeks the game takes place. It shouldn't be impossible for him to kill a bandit just because he is 10 levels higher than Geralt. Furthermore I really like to do whatever quest I would like to do and not be bound by the level restrictions.
For instance I started with the main quest in Skellige, then Novigrad and Velen at last, which lead to some new dialogues I haven't heard in my previous two playthroughs.
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I modded my Witcher 3 to death too, but mostly visually - could you please share some of your mods that you use for better XP/Quest scaling? Thanks in advance!
I love these debates!
The leveling in an open world game is too readily thrown out of whack because 1.) it's easy to accidentally grind your way to the top or 2.) get blindsided by something way over your level without warning.
To me, a combat system should always allow the player a chance to succeed, and there should be some consistent and ongoing balance between encounters that make the player go, "Holy Great Pumpkin above!!! It peeled off my skin through my armor then picked its teeth with my +15 sword!" and encounters that make them go, "Teacup. It's tea. I'll kill you with my teacup." Both are a great way of showing character advancement. (I'll refer back to Might and Magic VI and VII. I loved how players would still encounter low-level enemies late in the games. Not only did it make the world feel more immersive, but it was also a sign of how far their characters had come. Creatures that used to pose a real threat could now be absently swiped aside. Awesome stuff.)
The secret is for the game give the player a hint as to what sort of challenge they'll be facing. Static enemies create odd and disorienting (read: "un-fun") surprises. I, too, have encountered the almighty Drowner or Nekker that can insta-kill Geralt, despite their icons clearly showing that we're at the same level. And the Jenny o' the Woods, quest -- wow. It took me 5 tries and over 2 hours to beat her, and I was two levels above recommended! (These things are probably just errors, though.) It also can't really be rectified by leveled lists (like Bethesda's games), as that just ensures the game starts to become a bit ridiculous...(Why does this rat have 420 HP? Is that bandit wearing FULL DAEDRIC ARMOR!?)
Here's I would fix it in two strokes:
A. Bring back training to CRPGs.
Gaining experience and then needing to actually train to gain a level is so much more immersive. It creates solid markers for what characters can do and can't do, and it can be based on more than just the ability to cause more / receive less damage. Especially for the action-oriented combat systems in modern RPGs, it would be great to have to actually, interactively learn how to do something and get a chance to try it safely. Now, not only could things become more about player skill and less about RNG values, but it would also create seamless "stages" in gameplay that could be used as milestones for what characters were ready to tackle.
B. Give players hints in advance when something is over/below their level.
Why would this ghoul be so unbelievably more powerful than that ghoul? What, did it eat Chuck Norris and absorb his power? What gives? -- Oh, look over there! A woman frantically screaming for help! What's that? Your house is burning down and your children are trapped inside? Bandits, you say? I'll take care of them...oh. Those are level 24 bandits. Sorry. I'll come back in about a week...and the house will still be burning...and you'll still be screaming for help...
Why would players even be in that area already? It would be better if players could encounter regular "signs" or "rumors" when they were on the fringes of a new area. Passing comments from NPCs about being chewed up if we go further west or something. If we're over level, comments could become things like how much they could use someone like us out west. Encounter a boss monster, and it looks like a boss. A quick cutscene or unique animation to tell you this one's different from the herd. At least it would keep it immersive.
There's no 100% fix for it though. To be honest, I thought TW3 was fairly great if you kept yourself in the green for the story quests. Blood and Broken Bones made for a difficult start, but it was pretty balanced until I hit the high 20's. Then it became a bit too easy. But I was almost done by that point, so it was nice to be able to steamroll to the big finish, actually. Long game!
The leveling in an open world game is too readily thrown out of whack because 1.) it's easy to accidentally grind your way to the top or 2.) get blindsided by something way over your level without warning.
To me, a combat system should always allow the player a chance to succeed, and there should be some consistent and ongoing balance between encounters that make the player go, "Holy Great Pumpkin above!!! It peeled off my skin through my armor then picked its teeth with my +15 sword!" and encounters that make them go, "Teacup. It's tea. I'll kill you with my teacup." Both are a great way of showing character advancement. (I'll refer back to Might and Magic VI and VII. I loved how players would still encounter low-level enemies late in the games. Not only did it make the world feel more immersive, but it was also a sign of how far their characters had come. Creatures that used to pose a real threat could now be absently swiped aside. Awesome stuff.)
The secret is for the game give the player a hint as to what sort of challenge they'll be facing. Static enemies create odd and disorienting (read: "un-fun") surprises. I, too, have encountered the almighty Drowner or Nekker that can insta-kill Geralt, despite their icons clearly showing that we're at the same level. And the Jenny o' the Woods, quest -- wow. It took me 5 tries and over 2 hours to beat her, and I was two levels above recommended! (These things are probably just errors, though.) It also can't really be rectified by leveled lists (like Bethesda's games), as that just ensures the game starts to become a bit ridiculous...(Why does this rat have 420 HP? Is that bandit wearing FULL DAEDRIC ARMOR!?)
Here's I would fix it in two strokes:
A. Bring back training to CRPGs.
Gaining experience and then needing to actually train to gain a level is so much more immersive. It creates solid markers for what characters can do and can't do, and it can be based on more than just the ability to cause more / receive less damage. Especially for the action-oriented combat systems in modern RPGs, it would be great to have to actually, interactively learn how to do something and get a chance to try it safely. Now, not only could things become more about player skill and less about RNG values, but it would also create seamless "stages" in gameplay that could be used as milestones for what characters were ready to tackle.
B. Give players hints in advance when something is over/below their level.
Why would this ghoul be so unbelievably more powerful than that ghoul? What, did it eat Chuck Norris and absorb his power? What gives? -- Oh, look over there! A woman frantically screaming for help! What's that? Your house is burning down and your children are trapped inside? Bandits, you say? I'll take care of them...oh. Those are level 24 bandits. Sorry. I'll come back in about a week...and the house will still be burning...and you'll still be screaming for help...
Why would players even be in that area already? It would be better if players could encounter regular "signs" or "rumors" when they were on the fringes of a new area. Passing comments from NPCs about being chewed up if we go further west or something. If we're over level, comments could become things like how much they could use someone like us out west. Encounter a boss monster, and it looks like a boss. A quick cutscene or unique animation to tell you this one's different from the herd. At least it would keep it immersive.
There's no 100% fix for it though. To be honest, I thought TW3 was fairly great if you kept yourself in the green for the story quests. Blood and Broken Bones made for a difficult start, but it was pretty balanced until I hit the high 20's. Then it became a bit too easy. But I was almost done by that point, so it was nice to be able to steamroll to the big finish, actually. Long game!
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I modded my Witcher 3 to death too, but mostly visually - could you please share some of your mods that you use for better XP/Quest scaling? Thanks in advance!
Sure, I will put this information in a spoiler tag to not clutter the thread.
For enemy scaling I use Dynamic Enemy Scaling - Enhanced which you can fully customize to your own liking and the mod author suggest other neat mods on the description page to be used with it.
To make the combat less frustrating the No Auto Sword Sheathe - Unsheathe mod is of course a must so you yourself can fully decide when to pull out/sheathe your sword and which one to use.
To get rid of HUD clutter I mainly use Friendly HUD (which also does many other things than just changing the HUD) and Unseen monsters in order to not have the game point out to me exactly where a monster is when using the witcher senses.
For alchemy I use Witcher 2 Potion Length, does what it says really but also lower effectiveness so while that swallow potion might last longer it will also take longer to heal you. I found it too easy to refill all my potions though however by abusing the meditation system so I used the configuration file that came with Friendly HUD and set it to only allow meditation near fire places. To not screw myself over completely though I also installed Sit on demand which enables mediation with a different button and I set that one to create a bonfire so I can still meditate on the open field (provided I have timber on me as creating a bonfire costs timber).
Some other neat mods.
The prevent all file from Apply Oil Bug Fix, prevents me from during inventory management during combat, forcing me to prepare (like a Witcher should).
Remove Weapon and Armor Level Restrictions, does exactly what it says. If I found it or crafted it I earned it.
Fix Exp for quest, grey quest will now give XP.
The Human behaviour file from Brutal and Realistic Combat, makes human opponents smarter. For example they will now counter you if you spam attack them while they're blocking.
To make the combat less frustrating the No Auto Sword Sheathe - Unsheathe mod is of course a must so you yourself can fully decide when to pull out/sheathe your sword and which one to use.
To get rid of HUD clutter I mainly use Friendly HUD (which also does many other things than just changing the HUD) and Unseen monsters in order to not have the game point out to me exactly where a monster is when using the witcher senses.
For alchemy I use Witcher 2 Potion Length, does what it says really but also lower effectiveness so while that swallow potion might last longer it will also take longer to heal you. I found it too easy to refill all my potions though however by abusing the meditation system so I used the configuration file that came with Friendly HUD and set it to only allow meditation near fire places. To not screw myself over completely though I also installed Sit on demand which enables mediation with a different button and I set that one to create a bonfire so I can still meditate on the open field (provided I have timber on me as creating a bonfire costs timber).
Some other neat mods.
The prevent all file from Apply Oil Bug Fix, prevents me from during inventory management during combat, forcing me to prepare (like a Witcher should).
Remove Weapon and Armor Level Restrictions, does exactly what it says. If I found it or crafted it I earned it.
Fix Exp for quest, grey quest will now give XP.
The Human behaviour file from Brutal and Realistic Combat, makes human opponents smarter. For example they will now counter you if you spam attack them while they're blocking.
)Sure, I will put this information in a spoiler tag to not clutter the thread.
Hopefully I didn't forget about anything important (I run the game with a lot of modsFor enemy scaling I use Dynamic Enemy Scaling - Enhanced which you can fully customize to your own liking and the mod author suggest other neat mods on the description page to be used with it.
To make the combat less frustrating the No Auto Sword Sheathe - Unsheathe mod is of course a must so you yourself can fully decide when to pull out/sheathe your sword and which one to use.
To get rid of HUD clutter I mainly use Friendly HUD (which also does many other things than just changing the HUD) and Unseen monsters in order to not have the game point out to me exactly where a monster is when using the witcher senses.
For alchemy I use Witcher 2 Potion Length, does what it says really but also lower effectiveness so while that swallow potion might last longer it will also take longer to heal you. I found it too easy to refill all my potions though however by abusing the meditation system so I used the configuration file that came with Friendly HUD and set it to only allow meditation near fire places. To not screw myself over completely though I also installed Sit on demand which enables mediation with a different button and I set that one to create a bonfire so I can still meditate on the open field (provided I have timber on me as creating a bonfire costs timber).
Some other neat mods.
The prevent all file from Apply Oil Bug Fix, prevents me from during inventory management during combat, forcing me to prepare (like a Witcher should).
Remove Weapon and Armor Level Restrictions, does exactly what it says. If I found it or crafted it I earned it.
Fix Exp for quest, grey quest will now give XP.
The Human behaviour file from Brutal and Realistic Combat, makes human opponents smarter. For example they will now counter you if you spam attack them while they're blocking.
Fantastic list of mod suggestions there! I am sure many will benefit from it.
---------- Updated at 08:13 AM ----------
Look at Mezziaz's suggestions in his last comment in this thread.
A beautiful dream.
Such a change, along with removing random stats from named lore items (random rubbish stats, level scaling and "magic rareness" really have no place in legendary named items... its maybe okay for a generic Nilfgaardian sword and such), would make the game an instant 10/10 classic in story/action/open world cRPG categories. Unfortunately it seems nowadays game devs always need to screw up somewhere.
So you can get overpowered by skillfully defeating legendary foes guarding that rare sword. So what? That's a good thing - if you're lucky, skilled or know where to look. I got a very powerfull sword in Gothic 2 in Act 1 (or was it 2?), before even joining any factions. Competetive with end-game weapons, only slightly weaker. Still I felt I earned it. I found it way off the beaten path, it took me numerous reloads to defeat its deadly guardians and later I had to train hard to get the Strenght needed to wield it (practically ignoring all other stats). I was proud and it was a good feeling.
The way to reduce the impact of such a thing happening is NOT to introduce arbitrary level restrictions on gear and enemies which reduce/deal damage basing on your level. The solution is different: reduce the impact of equipment on gameplay. Make these skills and builds count way more. This way even if you get the powerfull staff earlier then the Devs have planned, game can still be interesting and fun, as your effectiveness depends on character build and level and player skill more then on lootz. Pillars of Eternity did it right, IMO. Superb quality weapons deal only 45% more damage then the base items (admittedly also have a large bonus to hit, which is kinda a big deal). But it's the character and its skills what really counts.
Sadly The Witcher 3 followed the Wasteland 2 and D:OS craziness of MMO weapon tiers with advanced versions dealing over 10x damage of the base versions.
Nvm @Mezziaz just found another NoGreyQuest mod http://www.nexusmods.com/witcher3/mods/414/?
The one you mentioned does that, but its in the bms format. With this one u just have to place it in Mods folder
Btw these are the mods that I use right now (essenthy's Swamp Mod is disabled because Super Turbo Lighting 1.0.3 is already installed):
^ All these mods + Essenthy's STL Mod makes this already amazing game even greater. Just imagine if they will release ModKit someday! (I still believe they will!)
P.S. Do u also use Nexus Mod Manager? If so - could u also share you screenshot of the mods that u use?
The one you mentioned does that, but its in the bms format. With this one u just have to place it in Mods folder
Btw these are the mods that I use right now (essenthy's Swamp Mod is disabled because Super Turbo Lighting 1.0.3 is already installed):
^ All these mods + Essenthy's STL Mod makes this already amazing game even greater. Just imagine if they will release ModKit someday! (I still believe they will!)
P.S. Do u also use Nexus Mod Manager? If so - could u also share you screenshot of the mods that u use?