Broken Systems: Non-lethal

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I've had a stick up my ass about pacifist/non-lethal mechanics in games for a while now.

Back in the days of Deus Ex, the first one from 2000, going for a pacifist run was hard. Not killing anyone was very difficult and took a lot of creativity and careful progressing, avoiding boss battles, and going in for melee takedowns to avoid using lethal ranged weapons. Yes, there was the non-lethal crossbow, but you didn't have a shitload of ammo for it.

Much later came Deus Ex: Human Revolution and they wanted to honor the original and thus built in the possibility for a pacifist run. The only problem was that not only was this approach easier than going the lethal way, it was also cheaper AND gave you more experience. It was just the optimal way to play through the game, no need to engage with any of the shooting mechanics. I was so disappointed by this, that I never even touched on the next game (Mankind Divided) because in the footage they made it clear that going non-lethal was going to be even easier than before, giving you perfectly effective long ranged options on top of the already optimal system there was.

And now Cyberpunk has done the same thing.

It's so easy to go non-lethal that you have to deliberately go the murderous route. There are so many non-lethal options, from hacking, to melee weapons, to cybermods that make all your guns non-lethal. And even when you decide not to use all those options, important characters still don't die. You need to deliberately execute Cyberpsychos, for instance. The game protects you from going off the moral path at every turn and that just doesn't make for an impactful system. If you want to ask players to go the moral route, then that path should be harder than the immoral path but reward you with a better ending.

So how do I suggest the non-lethal system should work?

Well first of all, non-lethal options should never incorporate room clearing options. So the Contagion Quickhack should be a lethal one to start with.

Non-lethal guns should not just be assured by a cyberware mod either. I would actually overhaul the ammo system. Instead of having pistol, rifle, shotgun, and sniper ammo, I'd change the ammo types to the gun types, so power, smart, and tech ammo. Along with those three, I'd also add non-lethal variants for power and tech weapons: rubber and EMP bullets. Rubber bullets would be more effective against people with less cyberware and EMP bullets would be more effective against people with more cyberware. To make any gun non-lethal, you'd have to add a mod to the game and it will use the appropriate non-lethal ammo. Or in the case of smart guns, they'd simply target limbs instead. The kicker of course is that overkill and headshots would still kill the individual, even with non-lethal. Again, the moral path shouldn't be the easy path.

Non-lethal takedowns, non-lethal hacks, and non-lethal grenades should still be a thing and would be the more dependable way not to make any mistakes.

On top of reducing your options a little and changing how bullets work, the game really shouldn't hold your hand. No more having to execute important enemies, but rather having to put in the work to keep them alive if that's what you want. Make you work for that morally superior ending. Those cyberpsychos aren't going to automatically stay alive, so you'd better come up with a good plan, choom.

Finally, enemies who are not dead should be able to be revived, though how and by who should depend on the game's difficulty.

- On EASY : Unconscious enemies stay that way permanently, just like it works now.
- On MEDIUM : Unconscious enemies (with cyberware) can be revived by netrunners, if they have one in their team.
- On HARD : Unconscious enemies can be revived by netrunners, or just by any teammate that comes across their body.
- On VERY HARD : Unconscious enemy can be revived as above, but will also wake up by themselves in a couple of minutes (2? 3? 5? Will need to be tested).

For that last one, there will obviously be an exception for the cyberpsychos and any bosses. Defeated is defeated, you're not going to have to fight them again. Maybe if the devs can manage, there can be an animation to restrain them added to the game, but maybe that's too much effort for just the hardest difficulty.

So what would you get for finishing the game on the hardest difficulty completely non-lethal? Well, definitely an achievement (I'd call it Hardcore Pacifist) and the best ending in the game. Even if it's just a small improvement on the other endings.
 
I think it is really a bad idea that unconscious opponents remain unconscious forever.
Depending on which method is used to make them unconscious, the opponent should wake up again after a short time and be fully aware that he was just unconscious. So at least after waking up, warn his comrades that something is wrong.

Unconscious Time (not permanent)
- Choke close combat: 30 seconds - 3 minutes (that is btw also the real value)
- Melee baton (blunt weapon): 3 minutes to 10 minutes
-QHack Elecktro-shock: 30 seconds - 1 minute
-Q Hack SYSTEM RESET: Exactly 60 seconds
- All other methods 3 to 10 minutes



Unconscious Time (permanent)
Anesthetic (syringe) ...
Put someone in a chest / trash container ..
Shackles and gags someone ...



Additional idea: opponents that you unconsciously shoot, should DIE of internal bleeding after 5 to 10 minutes, if they are not stabilized by the player ...
 
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t is very true that stealth in the game is very overpowered as a mechanic. I remember when I first heard about people beating the game on very hard difficulty with no kills and then found out from my own experience that pacifist approach is by far the easiest way to play through very hard difficulty. That said, I started using guns, just to make things actually a bit more difficult :p

I'm not sure how they would implement a system for ammo types, but I think aforementioned would be pretty good. Tranquiliser rounds would be a good addition to the rubber bullets and EMP rounds previously mentioned. We do have various damage types in addition to base damage (physical, electrical, chemical and thermal), so maybe weapons that drop or are crafted permanently for non lethal might be something easier to work into the current ranged weapons system?

I agree that wake-up timers on stealth takedowns unless they've been stashed, would be good for balancing the stealth system, especially where you're attempting to clear out swarms of enemy targets.

One thing that I think was a bit of a missed opportunity was clothing that as a precondition reduces the sound your V makes, or reduces visibility I know there clothing mods and perks that can achieve similar effects, but it would add a bit more depth to character builds maybe. I'm not suggesting that it has to be what the Ghosts had (Ghost Recon operatives had that active camo tech long before 2077... ;) )
 

EdAbra

Forum regular
This is a great suggestion and I would really enjoy a pacifist path with social connections like in the EMPATHY thread with options to influence people with passive or active skills or in some dialogues, and perhaps enhance some of existing hacks with more effects.
Dissociation of hard modded and meaty people on how they react to special non-lethal ammunitions could also function with hacks as well and offer a new framework to develop in therm of gameplay. By being more efficient and have more options toward heavily modded Characters, now that I think about it, and perhaps modify some existing resistance that you can mod yourself with and can make you almost invincible.

Your exemple on how conciousness would work is really cool too, I feel that an enemy automatically reviving his mates could be an unnecessary pain in the ass, OR it should not be an instant heal and take time, could be a behavior that suppose that their inconcious teammate is noticed by somebody of his crew that would take risk to heal him.
So enemies should have behaviors options based on their number (and thus capacity to cover the heal) and the location of the unconcious member of their team (behind a cover or exposed).
It could also be interesting to be able to neutralise instantly an enemy that is on the ground just like with a droped stealth neutralisation and could be used with non lethal grenades or special habilities that could knock off an enemy.

Again, I really like the Idea !
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Reminds me of This mod !
 
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EdAbra

Forum regular
Not to mention Tranquiliser ammo for arm canon that are exploding ammunitions instead of having a syringe type of usage ...
They should rework all the concieled weapon mods from monowire to mantis blade and canon arm. For now it really looks like placeholders.

More cooldown for exploding dart , 2 or 3 ammunitions per cooldown for IEM and buring with the need to aim correctly (on a non-armored part for critical if it makes any sense) and finally 4 ammunitions for Tranquiliser that depleats stamina bar and knock ennemy off when it hits zero with more stamina depleated with a shot on the chest and a kinda one shot in the head (And perhaps hability to add auto aim or more ammo to any of those)

But yeah there definitely is an urge for rework ! Stealth kill from distance with monowire and climbing hability with mantis blades (like in the trailer) could be really nice !
 
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