Brouver's Ability Should not have Changed

[SnaksAwnSnaks]

Brouver's Ability Should not have Changed

To start I am going to say that I absolutely love ST and I have played a bunch of Brouver Handbuff and some Brouver Shupe. But this doesn't mean I am partial to this faction. I am on par with majority of the changes that just occurred to ST. But I am 100% against the change to Brouver. I get the change from beta to not allow you to pull any silver. But nerfing his ability to pull a spy in this current setup isn't really fair. And I am going to tell you why.

It comes down to Gwent's evolution of Spy play from closed beta to now. Brouver pulling a spy wasn't the problem, there were other factors. The main issue I see is the fact that every faction doesn't have faction specific cards to nearly guarantee your spy. I know ADC exists and it can be used as a neutral. But look at the current setup of factions. The decks that saw most play tended to have way to insure that they pulled spy when need be. Why to you think NG, SK, and ST saw so much play? A huge reason is that they simply had the ability to nearly guarantee their spy each game. So this brings me to my next point, why was only ST Brouver changed?

If you are going to nerf the ability to get a spy from ST besides ADC, then other factions needs to be changed in the same way. I don't really support this fully in the sense that I want to see each faction have cards to pull spy quite easily while thinning. As far as I am concerned both Monsters and NR need to have a card outside of ADC that is silver like NG and SK have. If you are not going to allow this then NG and SK need to have a few cards reworked to prevent them from doing what Brouver was efficiently also. How can you say Brouver cannot pull a spy but NG can use Rainfarm to do the trick. Furthermore, SK has both Hym and Skjall, and they thin more. I am not saying remove these from NG and SK. I am 100% OK with them staying as long as you create cards for both Monster and NR and restore Brouver's ability to pull spy. That way each faction will have equal opportunity to get their spy. If you are not going to do this, then it isn't fair to keep NG and SK untouched when it comes to tech that can pull a spy that is just the bottom line.

Overall, most of the changes made are solid with this latest patch, granted I would still love to see create removed completely. But I am not going to go into that with this thread.

*PS: I am open to discussing this further with people. Let's just keep it civil. Thanks!*

**Title changed?**

 

[Khreygond]

SnaksAwnSnaks

The difference with Brouver is that it was a guaranteed spy tutor. With the other factions (Like Rainfarn for NG, Hym for SK), you could simply not draw the spy or the tutor. But if Brouver remained as he is, you'd always have the ability to tutor it. And then following it up with the Barclay into Cleaver combo, practically meant that everyone would have to drypass against you in round 1, if they were on blue coin, as aside from Reveal (and we all know how good that is), there is nothing else capable of reliably putting at least 14 points on an empty board without committing a huge play. Natalis into Reinforcements into Ronvid is a notable exception but that also is not guaranteed. And if everyone had to drypass on the blue coin, that would still be coinflip abuse really. With the advantage Elven swap has on long rounds, there wouldn't be many decks out there able to go toe-to-toe

Other than that, I want to see Create gone for good. For. Good. No Triss:TK, No Hym's second option, No Isengrim: Outlaw, just get rid of that mechanic completely from all constructed deck formats.

 

[4RM3D]

Brouver pulling a spy wasn't the problem, there were other factors.

Likewise, the coin flip wasn't much of an issue either in closed beta, but much has changed. The thing is that this patch is a temporary band-aid until Homecoming. Nerfing Brouver isn't the best solution, but it is the easiest and fastest one.

PS. Changed the topic of the thread to better reflect its content.

 

[SnaksAwnSnaks]

Because people are about dry-passing now, doesn't make Brouver into spy a problem. There was a time when this whole dry-pass idea wasn't a thing. And Brouver could still pull spy. The Barclay into Clever is very strong, but doesn't warrant the removal of spy pulling from Brouver. Plenty of decks have the ability to gain massive swings also. One thing that is being overlooked, if you do not Barclay into Clever sooner, the value of that move goes way down. It is no different then a SK player resurrecting their strengthened GS. You could make the argument that the ability to resurrect a 20+ GS is much better in the long run then Barclay into Clever. As long as each faction gains a specific way to guarantee their spy, these spy issues go away. But until then, Gwent will have a spy problem. That is the biggest issue.

I would have really liked to see the nerf to Brouver pulling spy at a later patch instead of this. It would have been nice to see the other changes first. I feel the create and Wardancer changes really put Brouver into spy in a bad light. It made it feel much worse then it probably was.

 

[Iuliandrei]

Personally i would completely change Brouver, but for totally different reasons. I do agree however that spies are problematic and factions that have a reliable way to pull their spy have an advantage.
The problem isn't really with the leader, but the effect of CA spies and coinflip. We reached a point where most of the games are decided by turn 1, if you go first without a spy there is no point of even trying, this is simply broken.

 

[CallMeHoot]

SnaksAwnSnaks

The difference with Brouver is that it was a guaranteed spy tutor. With the other factions (Like Rainfarn for NG, Hym for SK), you could simply not draw the spy or the tutor. But if Brouver remained as he is, you'd always have the ability to tutor it. And then following it up with the Barclay into Cleaver combo, practically meant that everyone would have to drypass against you in round 1, if they were on blue coin, as aside from Reveal (and we all know how good that is), there is nothing else capable of reliably putting at least 14 points on an empty board without committing a huge play. Natalis into Reinforcements into Ronvid is a notable exception but that also is not guaranteed. And if everyone had to drypass on the blue coin, that would still be coinflip abuse really. With the advantage Elven swap has on long rounds, there wouldn't be many decks out there able to go toe-to-toe

Other than that, I want to see Create gone for good. For. Good. No Triss:TK, No Hym's second option, No Isengrim: Outlaw, just get rid of that mechanic completely from all constructed deck formats.

This post has my full endorsement.

I also want to see Create gone from the game. Completely. Nuked from orbit, if you're old enough to get the reference. It's a damn lazy mechanic and it needs to go.

 

[SnaksAwnSnaks]

Personally i would completely change Brouver, but for totally different reasons. I do agree however that spies are problematic and factions that have a reliable way to pull their spy have an advantage.
The problem isn't really with the leader, but the effect of CA spies and coinflip. We reached a point where most of the games are decided by turn 1, if you go first without a spy there is no point of even trying, this is simply broken.

I do agree with you to a point. I am perfectly fine with removing spies in general. Spies heavily relied on now a days.

 

[Khreygond]

Because people are about dry-passing now, doesn't make Brouver into spy a problem. There was a time when this whole dry-pass idea wasn't a thing. And Brouver could still pull spy. The Barclay into Clever is very strong, but doesn't warrant the removal of spy pulling from Brouver. Plenty of decks have the ability to gain massive swings also. One thing that is being overlooked, if you do not Barclay into Clever sooner, the value of that move goes way down. It is no different then a SK player resurrecting their strengthened GS. You could make the argument that the ability to resurrect a 20+ GS is much better in the long run then Barclay into Clever. As long as each faction gains a specific way to guarantee their spy, these spy issues go away. But until then, Gwent will have a spy problem. That is the biggest issue.

I would have really liked to see the nerf to Brouver pulling spy at a later patch instead of this. It would have been nice to see the other changes first. I feel the create and Wardancer changes really put Brouver into spy in a bad light. It made it feel much worse then it probably was.

Τhere are actually many decks that don't drypass you know. Baseline consume, Alchemy, Greatswords don't pass either. Also, the problem remains that none of the decks capable of massive swings can do so without setup, with the exception of reveal. With brouver the problem was that really, you had only 1 turn to react, one turn to play something on an empty board that needed to be greater than 17 (due to wardancer, now 14) points before he played the spy. Literally everything except the Crones, Natalis into Ronvid and Reveal needs to expend something really huge in order to be 14 points ahead on an empty board, with its first play. Vilgefortz needs some units, allies or enemies, Ciri: Nova is easy to scorch, like, there's not much else that can do so from the very beginning.

Surely the removal isn't warranted but pulling the spy with brouver would still force you to pass if you were blue coin wouldn't it? You could simply scare opponents out of the round. Besides, there's plenty more ways to remove the spy and gain a lot of points from the early beginning. Ciri: Nova nails you 22 points, Barclay into Cleaver also 22, Eskel is 20, Milva is 19. You could just include some more to increase the chances you'll pull at least one and presto, coinflip abuse at it's finest.

Now I am not saying that no other deck can do that. If, say Skellige has the hym they can do the hym -> Skjall -> Udalryk from the first turn, giving you a 5 point spy (1 if there's roach) and then just catching up with 1 card. Sure. Even NG spies can play Rainfarn into cantarella and then kill her with Menno, again forcing you out of the round and then taking it on even. The main difference however is that none of those decks can rely on that tactic. Simply, you may not draw Rainfarn, Hym, Menno, Cantarella, any of that. You have to have a tactic, a plan in case you don't. Brouver with that ability however, made this tactic very much reliable. You ALWAYS had the spy tutor. You could ALWAYS rely on forcing opponents out of the round on the blue coin.

And yes, I agree too that a lot of other things should have been fixed that haven't. Now a new Imlerith: Sabbath deck with Olgierd has risen and is probably the worst thing to have ever hit Gwent. Vipers can remove anything you put on the board still, and Skellige has a massive ton of resurrections, more than the max amount of removal control heavy decks can pack really. Not to mention Create wasn't actually addressed (I just lost a match due to Hym spawning an Ozzrel and eating a spy). But I'll take what I can, whatever was addressed, needed to be addressed, with the exception of Olgierd, which actually gave rise to the worst deck I've ever seen

 

[SnaksAwnSnaks]

Now I am not saying that no other deck can do that. If, say Skellige has the hym they can do the hym -> Skjall -> Udalryk from the first turn, giving you a 5 point spy (1 if there's roach) and then just catching up with 1 card. Sure. Even NG spies can play Rainfarn into cantarella and then kill her with Menno, again forcing you out of the round and then taking it on even. The main difference however is that none of those decks can rely on that tactic. Simply, you may not draw Rainfarn, Hym, Menno, Cantarella, any of that. You have to have a tactic, a plan in case you don't. Brouver with that ability however, made this tactic very much reliable. You ALWAYS had the spy tutor. You could ALWAYS rely on forcing opponents out of the round on the blue coin.

And yes, I agree too that a lot of other things should have been fixed that haven't. Now a new Imlerith: Sabbath deck with Olgierd has risen and is probably the worst thing to have ever hit Gwent. Vipers can remove anything you put on the board still, and Skellige has a massive ton of resurrections, more than the max amount of removal control heavy decks can pack really. Not to mention Create wasn't actually addressed (I just lost a match due to Hym spawning an Ozzrel and eating a spy). But I'll take what I can, whatever was addressed, needed to be addressed, with the exception of Olgierd, which actually gave rise to the worst deck I've ever seen

When it comes to NG, they can pretty reliably play their spy in most games. NG is problem the best faction a thinning out your deck. Granted other factions can do the same, but NG is way ahead when it comes to strong decks that can reliably thin to get their spy regularly.

Side note: I agree with your create points. Create needs to be revisited.

 

[Khreygond]

When it comes to NG, they can pretty reliably play their spy in most games. NG is problem the best faction a thinning out your deck. Granted other factions can do the same, but NG is way ahead when it comes to strong decks that can reliably thin to get their spy regularly.

Side note: I agree with your create points. Create needs to be revisited.

And like you, I am also starting to think CA spies should really be removed. But playing the CA spy is not that much of a problem if you can thin reliably as well. if they play or draw it later on, chances are so have you, or at least the tutor. It's much more of a problem when you can play it in the very beginning. Any factions or decks with a slow start are completely at your mercy.

 

[SnaksAwnSnaks]

And like you, I am also starting to think CA spies should really be removed. But playing the CA spy is not that much of a problem if you can thin reliably as well. if they play or draw it later on, chances are so have you, or at least the tutor. It's much more of a problem when you can play it in the very beginning. Any factions or decks with a slow start are completely at your mercy.

I find it fascinating how spies in Gwent have evolved. Maybe it is just me, but I don't recall decks relying so heavily on spies as then do now. Not sure what changed. But it has definitely impacted Gwent. Some may say in a positive way, others may not view it that way.

 

[Khreygond]

I find it fascinating how spies in Gwent have evolved. Maybe it is just me, but I don't recall decks relying so heavily on spies as then do now. Not sure what changed. But it has definitely impacted Gwent. Some may say in a positive way, others may not view it that way.

I do think Spies were always powerful. Even in the closed beta, what dominated the meta was Skellige discard, because it was the only faction that could field 2 CA spies. Their plan was to win round 1, enter round 2 and play 2 CA spies, ermion and Last wish and make it to round 3 with a set up graveyard and a card up at least. Then NG often played a rot tosser on an empty row and then cantarella. Rot tosser triggered at the start of the turn, so you either sacrificed a unit or they play a CA spy but gave you no points.

Spy abuse has always been a thing, it just wasn't so impactful back then admittedly.

 

[SnaksAwnSnaks]

I do think Spies were always powerful. Even in the closed beta, what dominated the meta was Skellige discard, because it was the only faction that could field 2 CA spies. Their plan was to win round 1, enter round 2 and play 2 CA spies, ermion and Last wish and make it to round 3 with a set up graveyard and a card up at least. Then NG often played a rot tosser on an empty row and then cantarella. Rot tosser triggered at the start of the turn, so you either sacrificed a unit or they play a CA spy but gave you no points.

Spy abuse has always been a thing, it just wasn't so impactful back then admittedly.

I don't recall them nearly as used in beta as they are now.

 

[Pruny]

Τhere are actually many decks that don't drypass you know. Baseline consume, Alchemy, Greatswords don't pass either. Also, the problem remains that none of the decks capable of massive swings can do so without setup, with the exception of reveal. With brouver the problem was that really, you had only 1 turn to react, one turn to play something on an empty board that needed to be greater than 17 (due to wardancer, now 14) points before he played the spy. Literally everything except the Crones, Natalis into Ronvid and Reveal needs to expend something really huge in order to be 14 points ahead on an empty board, with its first play. Vilgefortz needs some units, allies or enemies, Ciri: Nova is easy to scorch, like, there's not much else that can do so from the very beginning.

Surely the removal isn't warranted but pulling the spy with brouver would still force you to pass if you were blue coin wouldn't it? You could simply scare opponents out of the round. Besides, there's plenty more ways to remove the spy and gain a lot of points from the early beginning. Ciri: Nova nails you 22 points, Barclay into Cleaver also 22, Eskel is 20, Milva is 19. You could just include some more to increase the chances you'll pull at least one and presto, coinflip abuse at it's finest.

Now I am not saying that no other deck can do that. If, say Skellige has the hym they can do the hym -> Skjall -> Udalryk from the first turn, giving you a 5 point spy (1 if there's roach) and then just catching up with 1 card. Sure. Even NG spies can play Rainfarn into cantarella and then kill her with Menno, again forcing you out of the round and then taking it on even. The main difference however is that none of those decks can rely on that tactic. Simply, you may not draw Rainfarn, Hym, Menno, Cantarella, any of that. You have to have a tactic, a plan in case you don't. Brouver with that ability however, made this tactic very much reliable. You ALWAYS had the spy tutor. You could ALWAYS rely on forcing opponents out of the round on the blue coin.

And yes, I agree too that a lot of other things should have been fixed that haven't. Now a new Imlerith: Sabbath deck with Olgierd has risen and is probably the worst thing to have ever hit Gwent. Vipers can remove anything you put on the board still, and Skellige has a massive ton of resurrections, more than the max amount of removal control heavy decks can pack really. Not to mention Create wasn't actually addressed (I just lost a match due to Hym spawning an Ozzrel and eating a spy). But I'll take what I can, whatever was addressed, needed to be addressed, with the exception of Olgierd, which actually gave rise to the worst deck I've ever seen

You were defending Triss and Hym as good create cards a few days ago, lul.
:shock2:

 

[time_drainer]

Even if you don't consider Cleaver (who is still problematic by the way), just reliably able to pull your Spy in every single match is a huge advantage even compared to Spy tutor cards that you may or may not draw. Considering the importance of CA Spies at the moment, I also agree though that it's not fair to have factions that can tutor their CA Spy, while other can't. So it would be in order to limit Hym, Skjall and Rainfarn as well - probably with adding a new NG Silver Spy to keep him viable.

But the best way to deal with the mess which is CA Spies is just to simply remove the whole mechanic. Fingers crossed CDPR do it with Homecoming.

 

[Khreygond]

You were defending Triss and Hym as good create cards a few days ago, lul.
:shock2:

Seriously? The most defensive I've been of that card is this:

Well I don't like that she can do that, even though she is a pretty decent card. To be honest though she is only used that way in Henselt to give you a 4th Winch ( -_- ). Otherwise she usually plays Reconnaissance, and no deck that runs her also runs 3 Recons. It could be "Create a Bronze special card that you have less than 3 copies of, from either player's starting deck"

And this:

Hmm, the Blood Moon deck definitely profits because it currently lacks gold synergy. The Full Moon, not so much, I feel there are enough Moons and my finisher is 2 golds so there is no space there, with Ge'els and Whispess: Tribute taking up the other 2 slots.

The latter is a very specific scenario, in which Triss: TK can just fill a gap in deckbuilding. The former, I never liked it. I acknowledged that as a card, it's decent, and it's true. It's a pretty good card. That doesn't mean I like the card itself. I never liked what it can do.

If I actually defended it anywhere else that I don't recall, that's because in the meta, with everything else being broken, she was not exemplary, the point swings she made were usually nice for a gold card. That doesn't mean I ever liked it

As for the discussion we had, I do remember saying that it's not true create, because of how consistent it is. I also agreed with you that it's an abomination of a card.

So please explain to me again how "defensive" I've been of that card

 

[SHALLAHJUSTICE]

It should have been changed and i'm very glad it did.

It was a cheap and guaranteed way to get card advantage and/or win round 1, did not require any setup or planning, a braindead move for netdeckers.

Good riddance :cheers:

 

[Alch1mist]

Brouver needed to be changed, but it's more than disappointing that they didn't remove card advantage spy tutors from NG and SK.

 

[Void_Singer]

Brouver needed to be changed, but it's more than disappointing that they didn't remove card advantage spy tutors from NG and SK.

I suppose you'd also like Francesca changed as well? and ADC?

 

[xalaa]

I guess he was too good in all situations. Red -> he will remove your engine, Blue -> he will spy and pass.