Building a gaming PC

[eskiMoe]

I'm not sure it's necessarily weaker. It's just... different.

Nah, it's weaker. Or slower. Even the memory latency is like double that of intel. And it has its limitations in terms of OC'ing.

That's probably the biggest advantage intel has anymore in terms of gaming performance. But AMD is improving in that aspect too.

Also as an owner of an Aorus board, yeah, the BIOS UI is horrid. Buuut, you get used to it.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Nah, it's weaker. Or slower. Even the memory latency is like double that of intel. And it has its limitations in terms of OC'ing.

It is different, not weaker. Intel's design is all based on monolith chip. AMD's design is based on chiplets and smaller process node. Those are key differences that affect it. Intel is going to have exactly same limitations once they lower their process node in the near future.

I.e. this is not Intel's advantage, it's their being behind situation.

 

[eskiMoe]

But it is slower tho. I'm not really arguing anything else. If you're really into overclocking your memory and getting the most mileage out of it, intel is the better choice. (atm)

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

It is limited by the interconnect quality. Intel doesn't deal with interconnect because of the monolith. But they'll surely do, so what they have now is already obsolete going forward.

 

[metalmaniac21]

overclocking

Hah, [...]!

Timings > Clock speed. On DDR4 it is.

[Edited - SigilFey]

 

[eskiMoe]

Gaming performance relies more on clock speed tho. Games generally run better with higher frequency memory, even with slightly looser timings. Both are important tho.

I've pretty much tightened up my timings/tertiaries as far as they go. Lowered them to the point my PC wouldn't post anymore -> Clear CMOS and reset them to the last stable values.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Gaming is too general of a use case. Some things benefit from lower latency (timings). Others from higher frequency. Depends on the workload.

 

[Guest 2091327]

Just to report back... I'm extremely pleased with the case. I'd go so far as to say it's probably the best I've ever slapped components into. The performance is equally pleasing. It does come with quite a few accessories but these are a bonus due to the modularity they allow. It does a lot of little things well.

In terms of specifics.... Cut-outs for cable routing are some of the best I've seen. The thing basically cable manages itself. One area I liked here was how the built-in tie down points are "open". So instead of struggling to fish straps through tiny little holes you can halfway tie them down and loop them around the tie down points. I've had experiences with other cases where the tie down points for straps were closed off loops. It can get annoying . There are even individual fan route holes perfectly positioned beside where you install front fans.

Stuff like including plenty of various screws in a dedicated plastic box with seperators isn't major. It is something though. It comes with a lot of spare screws to boot. This came in the accessory box with spinny boy HD cages, a anti-droop GPU bracket and a vertical GPU mount (didn't use any of these but they're there).

The magnetic hinged doors concept is pretty helpful too. They are removable, although the back door is a pain to take off without removing the top panel (held in by 2 thumb screws). You can get it off but it requires opening it up first, as the back top part of the door is underneath the lip on the top panel. Any concerns about the doors closing via magnets were dispelled quickly. The magnets on the doors are pretty damn strong. There is no chance they will inadvertantly open. My only complaint here is getting the doors lined up with both hinge pins to put them back on the case. Although, this could just be a me problem.

All in all it was a good recommendation. So thanks for mentioning it.

Thanks for reporting back This sounds excellent, and some of the points remind me of stuff mentioned in some of the reviews I saw. One of them was a long video in Swedish, so probably not very accessible internationally, but it was a thorough and good review. It's almost certainly the case I'll go for as well (think I'll wait for RDNA 2 now, and see how wicked the prices are). It kinda sounded like it had everything tbh, and even with the front panel on (so less air coming in), the temperature was very good when compared with other (and more popular) cases.

Currently I have an ancient Chieftec tower I bought around year 2000. Probably time for a new one No connectors on the front, which can get a bit annoying. It's basically a metal box, with metal harddisk boxes. Sometimes one of them can start vibrating against the metal core it is housed in, which is definitely annoying. Small paper clips and stuff to solve it -- for a time. I like the giant space inside it, so easy to work inside it, but it's time for an upgrade. For me the Phanteks will actually be considerably smaller as well, so that's kinda nice. And I probably don't need the six 5.25" wells...

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Thanks for reporting back

No problem. Yes, the thermals are decent when the removable panels are left in place. I have not paid much attention to the difference between having them on vs off. Temps hit about 60-65C on both the CPU/GPU during gaming with the panels inserted. Although, I'm not playing anything extremely modern at the moment (Metro 2033 Redux atm because I never played the first two games in the series).

 

[SigilFey]

Sometimes one of them can start vibrating against the metal core it is housed in, which is definitely annoying.

That's bad. I'd definitely begin shopping for a new case. Vibrations can be a system destroyer. Look at it this way, not only are your components constantly fluctuating by many tens of °C, but now they're being rattled back and forth hundreds to thousands of times per second (as the vibrations will be created by the fans and the spinning of the actual disks).

A lot of hardware damage comes from things being incorrectly mounted in a system's case or the mounts themselves being faulty.

No problem. Yes, the thermals are decent when the removable panels are left in place. I have not paid much attention to the difference between having them on vs off. Temps hit about 60-65C on both the CPU/GPU during gaming with the panels inserted. Although, I'm not playing anything extremely modern at the moment (Metro 2033 Redux atm because I never played the first two games in the series).

Generally you'll want all of the panels on. Not only will it affect the airflow, but it will keep the components much, much cleaner. That's big for both temps and longevity.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Generally you'll want all of the panels on. Not only will it affect the airflow, but it will keep the components much, much cleaner. That's big for both temps and longevity.

The p600s comes with a nylon mesh fabric on the front and top, with an additional dust filter in the front. It has small removable magnetic panels in both spots. It's marketed as an on-demand method to go with silence (the panels have sound proofing) or cooling performance. Whether it works out this way is a topic in itself.

I'd agree with your comments on dust. I wouldn't necessarily agree with the part about temperature. The entire point of fans is to blow ambient air at hot components to A, blow ambient (cool) air at the hot components and B, send the hot air somewhere else. The ability of a fan to perform this job can be significantly reduced when it has resistance in front or behind it. Like, glass/metal/plastic panels or dust filters.

To put this differently, I could easily take the components out of the case, line the fans up exactly as they are in the case and probably get better temperatures on said components. Worst case I'd have to move the fans closer to the components to ensure good coverage on air forced toward them. And.... it might need dusted off every couple of weeks to months.

 

[SigilFey]

The p600s comes with a nylon mesh fabric on the front and top, with an additional dust filter in the front. It has small removable magnetic panels in both spots. It's marketed as an on-demand method to go with silence (the panels have sound proofing) or cooling performance. Whether it works out this way is a topic in itself.

I'd agree with your comments on dust. I wouldn't necessarily agree with the part about temperature. The entire point of fans is to blow ambient air at hot components to A, blow ambient (cool) air at the hot components and B, send the hot air somewhere else. The ability of a fan to perform this job can be significantly reduced when it has resistance in front or behind it. Like, glass/metal/plastic panels or dust filters.

To put this differently, I could easily take the components out of the case, line the fans up exactly as they are in the case and probably get better temperatures on said components. Worst case I'd have to move the fans closer to the components to ensure good coverage on air forced toward them. And.... it might need dusted off every couple of weeks to months.

I've not used the case you're referring to, so I can't really argue if that's what you're seeing. I've not encountered any filters that would interrupt airflow in any significant way, though. I thought you were talking about the side-plates of the case. I know a lot of people often remove them in order to let the heat radiate away from the mobo.

For me, if that were to create better heat management, I would say that it indicates a problem with the overall design of the system. With the plates on, the air cooling should create a pressurized flow of air from the front to the back of the system, offering maximum cooling while the system is closed. If that's not happening, it means that the system requires more powerful fans, or there's a design flaw with that case. (But that's just how I handle it, personally.)

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I've not used the case you're referring to, so I can't really argue if that's what you're seeing. I've not encountered any filters that would interrupt airflow in any significant way, though. I thought you were talking about the side-plates of the case. I know a lot of people often remove them in order to let the heat radiate away from the mobo.

http://www.phanteks.com/images/product/Eclipse-P600s/Black/PH-EC600PSTG-15z.jpg

A picture might help. Those little magnetic panels attach in the smaller cut-outs on the front and top. They're easy to use or remove at will. The nylon mesh is behind them. The front has an additional fine mesh filter.

I'd mention I have an NZXT case for an older system where taking off the glass side panel improves temperature significantly. It was setup for negative pressure, with a front mounted AIO (better for CPU this way, worse for everything else). Removing the front panel improved temperature a lot too. Presumably this behavior occurs because glass tends to heat up (it got quite warm when the system was under heavy load, especially when stressing the GPU) and NZXT front panels are generally restrictive.

For me, if that were to create better heat management, I would say that it indicates a problem with the overall design of the system. With the plates on, the air cooling should create a pressurized flow of air from the front to the back of the system, offering maximum cooling while the system is closed. If that's not happening, it means that the system requires more powerful fans, or there's a design flaw with that case. (But that's just how I handle it, personally.)

Yep, pretty much. Brute forcing airflow with additional and/or more powerful fans is always an option. It was the solution with the NZXT case mentioned above. The former is generally better in my experience because at a certain point piling on additional fans has steep diminishing returns. More importantly, a staggering number of case designers don't appear to care about good airflow. They're focused almost entirely on whether the case is aesthetically pleasing. Thus, glass panels galore, RGB all over the place, choked off airflow, etc.

 

[Guest 2091327]

That's bad. I'd definitely begin shopping for a new case. Vibrations can be a system destroyer. Look at it this way, not only are your components constantly fluctuating by many tens of °C, but now they're being rattled back and forth hundreds to thousands of times per second (as the vibrations will be created by the fans and the spinning of the actual disks).

A lot of hardware damage comes from things being incorrectly mounted in a system's case or the mounts themselves being faulty.

It sounds worse than it is with how I wrote it. Sorry. The cases for the harddisks (two cases with room for 3 each) has a hook of sorts on them, which fastens it a bit more to the actual interior of the case. It's this hook that sometimes starts vibrating. It's not the case itself, or the harddisks inside the case. Those are firmly in place with screws. Obviously not ideal, but it's been quiet for a long while now. It's time for an upgrade, though, as this one is ancient, oversized, and lacking some features that would be nice, like USB connectors in the front. Think I'll wait for the next AMD GPUs though, and hope they won't have "nose bleed" prices.

 

[SigilFey]

A picture might help. Those little magnetic panels attach in the smaller cut-outs on the front and top. They're easy to use or remove at will. The nylon mesh is behind them. The front has an additional fine mesh filter.

I'd mention I have an NZXT case for an older system where taking off the glass side panel improves temperature significantly. It was setup for negative pressure, with a front mounted AIO (better for CPU this way, worse for everything else). Removing the front panel improved temperature a lot too. Presumably this behavior occurs because glass tends to heat up (it got quite warm when the system was under heavy load, especially when stressing the GPU) and NZXT front panels are generally restrictive.

Interesting...

Honestly, I have no idea why those plates would ever be beneficial. Having the top completely closed off simply traps the radiating heat. Hot air rises. That's...odd.

I'm almost convinced that it's a gimmick to sell those cases.

Yep, pretty much. Brute forcing airflow with additional and/or more powerful fans is always an option. It was the solution with the NZXT case mentioned above. The former is generally better in my experience because at a certain point piling on additional fans has steep diminishing returns. More importantly, a staggering number of case designers don't appear to care about good airflow. They're focused almost entirely on whether the case is aesthetically pleasing. Thus, glass panels galore, RGB all over the place, choked off airflow, etc.

I wouldn't call it "brute forcing" -- -- I'd call it simple optimization. If nature gives us an easy way to dissipate heat wells, we might as well take advantage of it.

As for newer case designs, there are three schools of them, in my estimation. There are those that try to sell cheap-arse designs that don't really serve any purpose other than being cheap. (Perfectly fine for average, home PC use.) Then there are the cases that are made for gaming that focus on airflow. And thirdly, are the cases that are designed for liquid cooling. Those might be more closed off to minimize any sort of ambient sound, but honestly, I think that whole concept is self defeating. A liquid-cooled system still benefits a huge amount from effective airflow. Even though the liquid will absorb heat more slowly, when it does get hot, it also radiates the heat more slowly. Keeping the ambient temp in the case low is a massive benefit.

It sounds worse than it is with how I wrote it. Sorry. The cases for the harddisks (two cases with room for 3 each) has a hook of sorts on them, which fastens it a bit more to the actual interior of the case. It's this hook that sometimes starts vibrating. It's not the case itself, or the harddisks inside the case. Those are firmly in place with screws. Obviously not ideal, but it's been quiet for a long while now. It's time for an upgrade, though, as this one is ancient, oversized, and lacking some features that would be nice, like USB connectors in the front. Think I'll wait for the next AMD GPUs though, and hope they won't have "nose bleed" prices.

Well, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "hooks". Every case I've ever used fastens HDDs / SSDs with screws. The only sound one should hear are the fans. If something is vibrating / rattling / buzzing, that's not a good sign. Especially for HDDs (with moving parts), any sort of vibration will eventually result in the heads becoming misaligned or the magnetic field on the disks, themselves, getting wonked. (Equivalent to smacking a magnet. It will eventually scramble the poles. Vibration is effectively banging the magnet back and forth.)

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Interesting...

Honestly, I have no idea why those plates would ever be beneficial. Having the top completely closed off simply traps the radiating heat. Hot air rises. That's...odd.

I'm almost convinced that it's a gimmick to sell those cases.

They aren't beneficial for temperatures. Both of them have sound proofing on the inner part of the panel. The panels themselves are designed to minimize noise. The idea is you can switch between airflow vs noise reduction on-demand and with minimal hassle.

I'd agree it's a bit of a gimmick. It's not on the list of reasons for buying the case. But, the option isn't exactly a bad thing.

I wouldn't call it "brute forcing" -- -- I'd call it simple optimization. If nature gives us an easy way to dissipate heat wells, we might as well take advantage of it.

As for newer case designs, there are three schools of them, in my estimation. There are those that try to sell cheap-arse designs that don't really serve any purpose other than being cheap. (Perfectly fine for average, home PC use.) Then there are the cases that are made for gaming that focus on airflow. And thirdly, are the cases that are designed for liquid cooling. Those might be more closed off to minimize any sort of ambient sound, but honestly, I think that whole concept is self defeating. A liquid-cooled system still benefits a huge amount from effective airflow. Even though the liquid will absorb heat more slowly, when it does get hot, it also radiates the heat more slowly. Keeping the ambient temp in the case low is a massive benefit.

I meant using overbuilt fans or a lot of them to compensate for poor case design. In terms of newer case designs.... Your run-down of the options available out there is reasonable. The trouble is a lot of the cases advertised as the other categories are more expensive cheap-arse cases.

 

[SigilFey]

They aren't beneficial for temperatures. Both of them have sound proofing on the inner part of the panel.

This makes sense! I suppose it's nice to have the option.

I meant using overbuilt fans or a lot of them to compensate for poor case design. In terms of newer case designs.... Your run-down of the options available out there is reasonable. The trouble is a lot of the cases advertised as the other categories are more expensive cheap-arse cases.

Yeah, you're right, there. I almost always have to do homework on new cases whenever I build a new system. I'm very happy with my Corsair case now:

 

[eskiMoe]

That's the most utilitarian case I've ever seen, lol.

 

[fr33kSh0w2012]

Deleted

 

[Skirlasvoud]

Boy I'm happy I returned my 5700 XT for Coil Whine and decided to wait.

I'm the kind of person that only upgrades once the new consoles are out and then purchases hardware that's slightly better to stay ahead of whatever the new game releases are. Now, everything points at the fact that the new consoles are going to absolutely destroy ANY GPU that's currently on the market. There's no PC GPU in existence yet, that's even an equivalent to what's going to be in the XBox Series X. Rumor is that it leapfrogs even the 2080 by a significant amount.

I was right on the money that the 3700X would be roughly equivalent to the console's CPU.
As for the GPU: Me and my clunky GTX 970 are going to keep our heads down until AMD releases a GPU that can keep up with what's inside the Xbox Series X.

I shudder to think of what a brand new RDNA2 / Navi 2x is going to cost though. Must be upwards of 600 - 900 euros. The new consoles can't be much cheaper than that either.


I've already build my desktop with brand new components, sans GPU, so I WILL buy a new GPU. If I had known in advance though, I might've switched from PC to PS5 for my gaming needs and keep the desktop for work and browsing. The new consoles are an actual threat both performance and price/value wise to PC gaming now.

Sony is going to release the specs in their machine in 6 hours from now. May god have mercy on us PC players if it's going to be more powerful than the Xbox.