Can't belive they cut out the humanity cost from the game

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At those points in-game when your screen would get red and distorted without Silverhand popping up, I thought it was because I started getting more cyberware and that the game was physically showing V's descent into cyber psychosis.

I figured once you went full psycho and helped bring the other cyberpsychos in alive, you'd get the Maxtac squad invitation.
 
Just posted on the general forum about the lack of combat buffs via drugs anymore and the heavy use of cybernetics for combat effectiveness, but with the lack of humanity cost.

As far as how it could be implemented in the current game, the player could randomly rage out and punch/kill a civilian which calls police chases as well as maybe a bounty system that persisted on you. Normally you could play until you went full cyber psycho and while super strong, you would have more problems with the law.

Prior to losing all humanity, the romantic relationships and some missions could get locked out due to lack of empathy or trust in the player, as people begin to fear you and the cybernetics. This could open up the door to other missions, and maybe a cybernetic removal missions to return some humanity (one time mission to wipe your slate clean).

Same with the drug system, originally keriznekov was a drug, but now it is a cybernetic. Similar to the witcher potion system, I believe they could have had a toxicity level (drug addiction) with adverse effects on the player if they relied too much on combat buffs via drugs.

This would create meaningful player choice between a tug of war on being stronger via drugs or cybernetics and maintaining humanity against drug addiction and/or cybernetics. (hard mode would be pure human, and then a mix off huge buffs for some adverse quality of life debuffs)
 
I've read it was cut because it was deemed offensive to people that need prosthetics IRL, ie. it doesn't make them any less human. I think that mecanic was removed in the newest edition of the TTRPG, too. Also, once you go into cyberpsychosis it's game over, so no point in including that system I guess.

Nope: the tabletop RPG makes a difference between restorative cyberware and trying to get unbound from your limited human flesh.
 
It honestly wouldn't be difficult to implement this feature. Your character has a certain pool of "humanity" (for example, 30, or whatever). Each cyberware decreases that pool and has side effects - both positive and negative. Positive could be being more resistant (basically more armor, more resistances to explosives or fire) and, obviously, getting new features from cyberware. Negatives could be more roleplayish like growing cold. And no, you don't have to record new lines. It could result in actually not being able to choose more empathic choices during the dialogues that already exist (not that there are too many choices, but ok).

Also, in terms of gameplay, you could have a chance (the more cyberware you have, the higher the chance) to enter something like a kind of cyberpsychosis / berserk mode during combat which results in:

- increased damage and resistances
- both enemies and friendly NPCs (random people on the street) highlighting in red and switching their models to the same as enemies have, making them both indistinguishable
- this would result in you hurting random people during fights, which could lower your street reputation

However, to make this actually worthwhile, you would need to have more dialogues too choose in the first place (so you can lock some of the empathic ones if you lose humanity) and living world reacting to you killing bypassers (or at least street cred mattering more). So it's not really the fact that this system doesn't make sense or is difficult to implement. There are plenty of ways to still keep it as a nice flavor without putting too many resources to implement it. However, the real problem is that this game is too linear and oversimplified even for that, and that is just sad.
 
That would have been AMAZING. The more cyberware you use you significantly increase in power (especially if the game was harder), but you lose humanity, and depending on the breaking points, you would be locked out from several quests that needed human interconnection and even locking out several endings. The ultimate role playing based on your choices.

The outrage would have been real though. AAHHH BAD DESIGN LOCKING OUT CONTENT FOR WANTING TO BE MORE POWERFULL etc.... We already have complaints for not being able to level up higher, while the leveling already is TOO much and sort of negates build creation (i mean seriously? 56 out 85 attribute points, and over 120 perks??)
 
In the Shadowrun universe there is "Essence cost" involved when you had body parts removed, and you would become mentally unstable if you had too little Essence left.
I remember in one of the first novels I read, there was a mercenary who had two cyberarms, and the protagonist was wondering all the time what happened to the man. When he finally mustered the courage to ask the mercenary how it happened, assuming an accident, the guy just replied "voluntary exchange", it was a really intense moment, realising the gravity of such a decision.

Now in CP2077, when you're about to get both your legs removed by some shady stranger who you also happen to be blackmailing to give you a lower price, all you get is the basic shop inventory with the item going from one side to the other...?! No animation, no dialogue, whatsoever?!

Urgh.... how disappointing...
 
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I've read it was cut because it was deemed offensive to people that need prosthetics IRL, ie. it doesn't make them any less human. I think that mecanic was removed in the newest edition of the TTRPG, too. Also, once you go into cyberpsychosis it's game over, so no point in including that system I guess.


It was said to NOT be in the game since long ago (pretty early).
It's mostly due to gameplay reasons because:
- it doesn't make any sense gameplay-wise (how would you even implement it? several psycho-stages?)
- nor is it any fun when your humanity reaches lower levels (or zero)
Technically the lower you go, the less control you have left. Surely it would be kinda like Johnny taking over, but you don't get to play and watch what happens, without your consent every now and then (similar to very few instances already in the game)
and when it reaches zero - Game Over. Congratulations.

The only thing I'd see this implementes would be as balancing reason down to a min of 30-40 and you have to chose which cybernetics you wanna install. Also on a Roleplaying level it would make sense to grow colder emotionally. But with a fully voiced huge game like that? No fucking way.

No, even though it's just my own opinion, it was very wise to not implement this.

Indeed. There is something obvious here, people asking more complex system for CP 2077 appear to miss. In tabletop game, anything like this, there must be limiting factors for builds, in CP humanity cost, for balancing reason. There wouldn't be any point for different character classes even, if cybering up didn't had limiting factor. While such thing was used in background material, it was in-universe way of explain reason for those limitations. People are confusing lore and game play mechanic.

It was very good that matter of real life prosthetics was brought up. Tabletop game would have probably gotten rid of those mechanics all together, if those weren't needed for game balancing reasons. They made difference between medical and game play enhancing stuff, because of game mechanics.

About exploring humanity. I actually needed to watch opening sequence for Ghost in the Shell (GitS) (1995) from youtube to check if my memory served me right, but yes. There is very complex system, production line even, putting together other very complex system, that is the body of main character. I kinda see, how viewers focus may slip to other things though. Still the real kicker is, she doesn't own that body and even if she did, she would still be dependent from complex system, to be able maintain that body. She asks questions, but that she asks is also sort of an answer.

GitS, other works, world of Cyberpunk 2077, maybe, say assassination is done by aid of cyberware, but motives behind crime, are those that different motives in 2020 or 1820?

Yeah, there is no reason for single player game for some convoluted mechanic, that exists in tabletop for different reasons. What comes exploring humanity in cyberpunk context, game does that very well. For example, perhaps not everyone has enhancements because they want them, but because they had to.
 
Who knows what future dlc will have. The 3rd percentage meter in the menus is supposedly your closeness to cyberpsychosis, and there is that mysterious 6th attribute, so maybe it will be something later on down the road.
 
Indeed. There is something obvious here, people asking more complex system for CP 2077 appear to miss. In tabletop game, anything like this, there must be limiting factors for builds, in CP humanity cost, for balancing reason. There wouldn't be any point for different character classes even, if cybering up didn't had limiting factor. While such thing was used in background material, it was in-universe way of explain reason for those limitations. People are confusing lore and game play mechanic.

It was very good that matter of real life prosthetics was brought up. Tabletop game would have probably gotten rid of those mechanics all together, if those weren't needed for game balancing reasons. They made difference between medical and game play enhancing stuff, because of game mechanics.

About exploring humanity. I actually needed to watch opening sequence for Ghost in the Shell (GitS) (1995) from youtube to check if my memory served me right, but yes. There is very complex system, production line even, putting together other very complex system, that is the body of main character. I kinda see, how viewers focus may slip to other things though. Still the real kicker is, she doesn't own that body and even if she did, she would still be dependent from complex system, to be able maintain that body. She asks questions, but that she asks is also sort of an answer.

GitS, other works, world of Cyberpunk 2077, maybe, say assassination is done by aid of cyberware, but motives behind crime, are those that different motives in 2020 or 1820?

Yeah, there is no reason for single player game for some convoluted mechanic, that exists in tabletop for different reasons. What comes exploring humanity in cyberpunk context, game does that very well. For example, perhaps not everyone has enhancements because they want them, but because they had to.

Just on the prosthesis thing: the idea that someone who is having a limb replaced as a prosthesis as the result of an accidental amputation, and someone who has mantis blades hooked into your brain as appendages within appendages are two different scenarios.

The resulting exploration on transhumanism is an interesting thought experiment that is at the core of the genre.
 
Just on the prosthesis thing: the idea that someone who is having a limb replaced as a prosthesis as the result of an accidental amputation, and someone who has mantis blades hooked into your brain as appendages within appendages are two different scenarios.

The resulting exploration on transhumanism is an interesting thought experiment that is at the core of the genre.
You missed my point: They kept the mechanics, just because of game balancing reasons, as they never existed for any other reason to begin with. Humanity cost is fluff, to sell that in rule book and stay in-universe.

What comes to transhumanism, we have that in game. Intellectually we have at least three characters for that, two with we can have quite a bit of dialogue, and one we interact... by different means.

And people having cyber hands or something, it's about implications of that technology and game has a very good take on that. Then there is this fetish aspect to things, which has circled around cyberpunk community for decades, to get access to stuff. Still just a fetish. Perhaps a bit like something I encountered in game, but perhaps we played different game then.
 
I agree, if they had a system like this in place there might be some different design decisions, and you would want to build around the relic and such.

I just dont understand artistically why they would walk away from the central theme of the genre. But, I think you make a good point, they left a lot on the cutting room floor.

But hey it has raytracing. That most of the players probably can't turn on.

Sorry for the cynicism. ;)
You said it all my friend. Said it all.
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Just posted on the general forum about the lack of combat buffs via drugs anymore and the heavy use of cybernetics for combat effectiveness, but with the lack of humanity cost.

As far as how it could be implemented in the current game, the player could randomly rage out and punch/kill a civilian which calls police chases as well as maybe a bounty system that persisted on you. Normally you could play until you went full cyber psycho and while super strong, you would have more problems with the law.

Prior to losing all humanity, the romantic relationships and some missions could get locked out due to lack of empathy or trust in the player, as people begin to fear you and the cybernetics. This could open up the door to other missions, and maybe a cybernetic removal missions to return some humanity (one time mission to wipe your slate clean).

Same with the drug system, originally keriznekov was a drug, but now it is a cybernetic. Similar to the witcher potion system, I believe they could have had a toxicity level (drug addiction) with adverse effects on the player if they relied too much on combat buffs via drugs.

This would create meaningful player choice between a tug of war on being stronger via drugs or cybernetics and maintaining humanity against drug addiction and/or cybernetics. (hard mode would be pure human, and then a mix off huge buffs for some adverse quality of life debuffs)
Anything to explore well one of the very pillar themes of the genere would be better than what we got now: nothing.
 
When I first started reading this thread, I was all on the side of the players that were disappointed in the lose of this game mechanic.

But after thinking about this for a while I can see why this mechanic was too difficult to implement the right way and it is far better for it not to be in the game than in the game as a washed down feature that only manipulates stats to represent a complicated concept.

Replacing body parts with wires and metal CAN NOT reduce your humanity only reduce your ability to interact with humanity deepening on current social norms! Atom Smasher to our 2020 norms is frightening and almost non-human. But for people of 2077 it probably is not nearly as bad. He could still find love and friendship with the right people. Even today a person in an Iron lung that is practically nothing more than a talking head is still considered a person with all their humanity.

This would work in game better if we look at each “non medical” implant as a "weapon". One guy in Texas walking around with an AR15 is not as objected to in their culture as would be that same man in California. But if that same man was walking around with a Bazooka and many side arms and carrying a ammo locker even in Texas that would probably get him kicked out of the local MacDonald's, people on the street would make wide circles around him and the cops might feel they need to have a chat with him.

To do it right in this game they would need a very deep NPC reaction system to the player.

I made a mod for Oblivion called "the lady said no"
as a companion that did not agree with you all the time and had their own likes and dislikes and self concerns. She would want a share of the gold we found, she would disagree with you sometimes on what to do next. And most of all she would remember everything you did to her and with her using that to form a dynamic opinion of the player. I know that may not sound like much these days but back in 2006 that was almost unheard of.

This system took me over a year (20 hours a week) to get working nearly how I wanted it to (many players then love my mod UNTILL... ) but then I eventually gave up and retired the project because she started to go crazy in the game such as starting arguments with you for no apparent reason. The number of thought loops, cool down timers, stacked repercussions and layered programing was just WAY out of my skill range.

I can see how the DEV might put this on the back burner for later or just not al all.
 
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I've read it was cut because it was deemed offensive to people that need prosthetics IRL, ie. it doesn't make them any less human. I think that mecanic was removed in the newest edition of the TTRPG, too. Also, once you go into cyberpsychosis it's game over, so no point in including that system I guess.
uhh then rename it into something else? i dont know, call it progess into "blabla".
Sounds more like an excuse.
 
That would definitely be a mechanic I'd like to see put back into the game. Shadowrun has the same mechanic, but it's called Essence instead (since magic is also a thing in Shadowrun). The more cyberware you install, the more your essence tanks, so as a chromed up Street Samurai, you have to make some hard choices about what systems you want to put in, because once the essence is gone, you NEVER get it back. Too much chrome, and you run the risk of dying, as there is not enough meat left for your spirit to hang on to, or worse, with ritual magic, somebody turns you into a cyberzombie. (One of the in-game baddies is essentially a cyberzombie. Those of you who have played through the Heist mission will know who I'm talking about).
 
When I first started this thread, I was all on the side of the players that were disappoint in the lose of this game mechanic.

But after thinking about this for a while I can see why this mechanic was too difficult to implement the RIGHT way and it is far better for it not to be in the game than in the game as a washed down feature that only manipulates stats to represent a complicated concept.

Replacing body parts with wires and metal CAN NOT reduce your Humanity only reduce your ability to interact with humanity deepening on current social norms! Atom Smasher to our 2020 norms is frightening and almost non-human. But for people of 2077 it probably is not nearly as bad. He could still find love and friendship with the right people. Even today a person in an Iron lung that is practically nothing more than a talking head is still considered a person with all their humanity.

This would work in game better if we look at each “non medical” implant as a "weapon". One guy in Texas walking around with an AR15 is not as objected to in their culture as would be that same man in California. But if that same man was walking around with a Bazooka and side arms and carrying a ammo locker even in Texas that would probably get him kicked out of the local MacDonald's, people on the street would make wide circles around him and the cops might feel they need to have a chat with him.

To do it right in this game they would need a very deep NPC reaction system to the player.

I made a mod for Oblivion called "the lady said no"
as a companion that did not agree with you all the time and had their own likes and dislikes and self concerns. She would want a share of the gold we found, she would disagree with you sometimes on what to do next. And most of all she would remember everything you did to her and with her using that to form a dynamic opinion of the player. I know that may not sound like much these days but back in 2006 that was almost unheard of.

This system took me over a year (20 hours a week) to get working nearly how I wanted it to (many players then love my mod UNTILL... ) but then I eventually gave up and retired the project because she started to go crazy in the game such as starting arguments with you for no apparent reason. The number of thought loops, cool down timers, stacked repercussions and layered programing was just WAY out of my skill range.

I can see how the DEV might put this on the back burner for later or just not al all.
I see what you're saying, but replacing what you are physically is not just necessarily just an outward appearance thing. A hyperbolic example: What if I discarded my entire body and download a copy of myself onto physical media. Am I human or am I me?

This is not just a modern prosthesis. These aren't even just futuristic prosthesis that function seamlessly with your neurology.

Consider that implants connect directly into and replace parts of your very nervous system. From your nerve endings to your brain stem.

Ask yourself "where is consciousness located?" We don't actually know the answer.

But consider the implications of not simply having a prosthesis and considering how others respond, but changing the way in which your mind relates to your body, and the poorly understood structures of consciousness itself.
 
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But consider the implications of not simply having a prosthesis and considering how others respond, but changing the way in which your mind relates to your body, and the poorly understood structures of consciousness itself.

I agree but that would mean forcing the player to act a certain way once they start to go crazy. The only way to do that off the top of my head is with stat manipulation as I said (which is not good enough). OR worse, force the player's aim off from hand trimmers, make some dialog choices furzy and hard to be sure what you are saying so you will sometimes say the wrong things, play irritating sounds and use echoes filters, darken the screen, etcetera. I did a lot of this kind of stuff in mods I made back in the day and people did not like it as game play. Even DEV theses day use more BONUS than PENATTIES for things like eating and drinking and sleeping in games for main stream gamers.

I go and look at some lets plays using my 2006-2010 (year) combat mods and CRINGE at how I used negative player feedback back then! :(
 
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