CD Projekt To Stop Legal Threats

[227]

Man, what's with the bad analogies and defending them?

Whether or not something can be infinitely reproduced has no bearing on the limitations that content creators put on legally purchased media because those millions of copies are unaffected by those limitations. The problems I highlighted only affect those who purchased legally. Those who are looking to upload either strip out the DRM and then upload (easy for music) or reupload a version they've downloaded that already has the DRM stripped, so the millions of potential copies have absolutely no relevance to what I'm saying because those who plan to upload will upload and the DRM and lack of ownership wind up stopping nothing. They never have, they never will, yet you continue to take the irrelevant details of the analogy and use them to completely dismiss my actual concerns because there isn't a perfect physical analogue to digital media. I don't know if you're doing so on purpose, but there's no need to be rude about it.

As for music, obviously you are not in the music business ... neither am I, but for myself playing bass, and my 13 year-old son being like 1 notch below guitar prodigy, from seeing him and listening to him play at small venues and the studio, and bankrolling his music, I can tell you for sure:

Define "in the music business." I have access to two studios, over a decade of experience working in a studio, own the rights to plenty of music, own thousands of dollars worth of music-related equipment (and have used hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment), and have several friends who are actively working in the music business. If that doesn't count, then it's still pretty damn close.

* Musical instruments are expensive, if you want quality instruments. There is indeed a remarkable difference in the sound you get from a quality instrument vs what you get from a crappy one, even if they are electronic. Then you have cables, pedals, amps, the maintenance of the instrument itself..

And I told you that musicians who are building their own studios undoubtedly have their own instruments already. As in, paid for. Owned. Stuff that belongs to them. Expenses that have already been covered. Take a guitarist, for example. I find it hard to believe that someone could become a professional guitarist without owning a guitar of their own, much less cables, pedals, amps, and all of that. Half of those things aren't even necessary if you have the right VSTs, though it certainly simplifies the process.

By electronic instrument I'm assuming you mean acoustic-electric, because there are free synths that are every bit as good as the expensive stuff. You have to pair them with some free VSTs and use automation to get the same kinds of effects a lot of times, but it's still all doable for the low low price of free. Synths that try to model acoustic instruments are trickier, but creative layering/reverb of multiple samples can make even those sound realistic, given enough skill.

* You cannot possibly manage the sound recording and play an instrument at the same time. Sure you can press the record button, but then what?

It's called a precount (referred to in some DAWs as a count-in). You press record, and there's a number of beats before it actually starts recording. If you're lazy, however, you can just start the recording a few bars prior to the part you're going to perform. You can give yourself as much time as you need to get set up, so it's absolutely possible. This is a standard feature in every DAW I've ever heard of.

* You are not going to get the same quality mix and sound from that music mix app in your iPad as compared to a sound console. Sure you can "make music" with your computer and a cheap app, but the quality of the recording is not going to be the same.

Regarding the iPad app, obviously that's not going to get you the greatest quality in the world. I'm just saying it could be done if the industry exploded, ruined every musician financially, and one's budget was ~20 dollars. That's not to discount the cheaper DAWs for computers, though. I've heard pro mixes made exclusively in FL Studio, which is one of the less expensive DAWs. It's infuriating for a lot of people, but I can guarantee that at a certain point (that doesn't take much money to reach) it depends on skill more than money.

Anyway, we've deviated so far from the topic that this isn't really worth discussing any further. I just felt the need to correct some inaccuracies you threw out there. If you want to get into this more, PM me or something.

 

[RageGT]

This is too funny!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRPM4aoLNRk

 

[dragonbird]

And on a more-serious note:
Seven ways to stop piracy without DRM

(CDPR gets a mention)

 

[secondchildren]

Nice bunch of ideas
I especially sign no.1 and 5

 

[username_2093396]

Nice bunch of ideas
I especially sign no.1 and 5

#1 kind of worries me because of the possibility that the deterrent might accidentally trigger for a legitimate customer. I got TW1 after the Enhanced Edition was already out which removed the DRM, but I do vaguely remember reading that some people had trouble with the original version of the game because the DRM thought they were pirates and made certain quests impossible to complete.

My favorite anti-piracy methods are producing a high quality game with minimal bugs, releasing new content for free to people who bought the game originally, and generally respecting the fans and being nice to the community (all of which CDPR does ). I also do like the idea of games being cheaper digitally, so I usually wait for Steam sales. It's very rare for me to pay full-price for a Steam game

 

[secondchildren]

#1 kind of worries me because of the possibility that the deterrent might accidentally trigger for a legitimate customer. I got TW1 after the Enhanced Edition was already out which removed the DRM, but I do vaguely remember reading that some people had trouble with the original version of the game because the DRM thought they were pirates and made certain quests impossible to complete.

There was no DRM in TW1 only TAGES. Yes, those gave some problems to users but what i mostly mean is an intentional "glitch" to included be in games. In TW1 it was the missing Reverend. In Batman AA you can't end the Scarecrow's dream part 2, because you can't climb a will with the batarang. And thus you can't end the game. In W2 there's the chicken attack in Act3 (The Spellbreaker quest I think).

 

[gingerbill]

CDPR should have carried on trying to catch and prosecute the pirates but i understand why they have chosen to stop.

Take one thing from this CDPR, i think you learned something about your loyal customer base?.

 

[dragoonlordz]

CDPR should have carried on trying to catch and prosecute the pirates but i understand why they have chosen to stop.

Take one thing from this CDPR, i think you learned something about your loyal customer base?.

If anything to me it shows they should learn that for most "fans" (while not all), it is merely a marriage of convenience in that as long as they do as told those "fans" will continue to support them while if at any point they do something those "fans" disagree with the threats start and the support ends up being threatened to be taken away as shown on these forums.

It's the same everywhere and while here it happens less on here and on BSN far more, it is the reality of what fanbase's are generally like. Both fickle and only supportive as long as the developers, publishers do as they say. Now there are some exceptions but they are few and far between.

 

[YpSan]

Really CDPR? You seem to be the last to figure this was not the best course of action to take. I really had a good impression of this company until this fiasco. You can make excuses now but I'm done supporting you.

Have it ever occurred to you that many people played illegal copy of Witcher 2 to try it out and never bought it because it was not worth the money? Something to think about seeing other games, like Skyrim, having no such problems. Piracy can't be avoided completely but game developers still manage to sell, unlike you. Should give you some idea about the quality of the product you're selling.

 

[andr01d]

Really CDPR? You seem to be the last to figure this was not the best course of action to take. I really had a good impression of this company until this fiasco. You can make excuses now but I'm done supporting you.

Have it ever occurred to you that many people played illegal copy of Witcher 2 to try it out and never bought it because it was not worth the money? Something to think about seeing other games, like Skyrim, having no such problems. Piracy can't be avoided completely but game developers still manage to sell, unlike you. Should give you some idea about the quality of the product you're selling.

Here we go again...
In order to be allowed to pay nothing for free trials there had to be free trials given out by CDP in the first place. When you don't like the game in the first place, well then don't buy it in the first place.
And don't tell me it's not fair. Buy a copy of the game, if you don't like it, you can still sell it on eBay or Amazon or any other second hand game store. Maybe you'll loose some money, so what? When it was common to have demo version's of games you had to pay for most of them, too. (At least you had to buy the games' magazine that offered these demo versions.)

And Skyrim is a rally brilliant (that was sarcasm, if you didn't notice) example given the fact that you can only play Skyrim after you activated your copy via Steam. So it's a little harder to copy the game in the first place and secondly you'll only get update support when using Steam (and vanilla Skyrim 1.0 was buggy as hell, even recent version 1.4 still has many major bugs), that's what's getting most people to buy the game.
But CDP removed any form of DRM from TW2. They gave in on all the demands those pirates made. (Well except maybe the demo thing, but therefor they made enough developer videos showing actual content of the game that pretty much replaced an actual demo.) They made extra contend available for free if you bought the game. They give good customer support. They removed DRM. They will continue to give support (at least if they handle support for TW2 like the handled it with TW1) for a long time. They even listened to their customers when they complained about their policy.

While I accept the claims people like dragonbird, Costin or Rage make regarding the fact that piracy may be opening new markets in countries where games aren't available in the first place as valid, I only see your voiced opinion as that of an egoistical, greedy and whiny wannabe Robin Hood who thinks it's his right to demand anything from game developers.

Still, I'm sorry for you or anyone if you didn't like the game and thus wasted money on it. But then again there are people out there who would be glad to buy that copy and all the great extra contend CDPR provided us with from you.

 

[Aver]

Really CDPR? You seem to be the last to figure this was not the best course of action to take. I really had a good impression of this company until this fiasco. You can make excuses now but I'm done supporting you.

Have it ever occurred to you that many people played illegal copy of Witcher 2 to try it out and never bought it because it was not worth the money? Something to think about seeing other games, like Skyrim, having no such problems. Piracy can't be avoided completely but game developers still manage to sell, unlike you. Should give you some idea about the quality of the product you're selling.

If you don't like that there is no demo than don't buy it and don't download it.

I personally don't have problems with guessing if game will be good or not. There are thousands of gameplay and LPs videos on YouTube. There is Metacritics with both meta score and user score. There are boards with opinions of other people about game.

But there are people that will say "Yeah, I played it through, I spent 30h playing it, but it's bad so I won't pay for it. Just like for other 100 games that I played".

 

[YpSan]

@Android

Allow me to question your IQ and ask where in my post have I claimed piracy is ok? I said many people use piracy to test games and not just to play for free. Piracy is wrong but if Withcer 2 was a better game many would still buy a legal copy.

But this is not piracy-vs-no piracy discussion, you're in a wrong thread. This is a discussion about CDPR stopping legal threats for whatever reason. I think they finaly came to their senses and realized this was the wrong way to deal with piracy.

But I said what I came here to say in my previous post. I'm just one person, but I'm not CDPR's customer anymore.

 

[username_2093396]

But I said what I came here to say in my previous post. I'm just one person, but I'm not CDPR's customer anymore.

Were you their customer in the first place? From your previous post it sounded like you pirated the game, hated it, and then decided not to buy it

 

[gregski]

Really CDPR? You seem to be the last to figure this was not the best course of action to take. I really had a good impression of this company until this fiasco. You can make excuses now but I'm done supporting you.

Good for you, good for us, good for CDPR. You can leave just now. No, we won't miss you.

 

[andr01d]

@Android

Allow me to question your IQ and ask where in my post have I claimed piracy is ok? I said many people use piracy to test games and not just to play for free. Piracy is wrong but if Withcer 2 was a better game many would still buy a legal copy.

But this is not piracy-vs-no piracy discussion, you're in a wrong thread. This is a discussion about CDPR stopping legal threats for whatever reason. I think they finaly came to their senses and realized this was the wrong way to deal with piracy.

But I said what I came here to say in my previous post. I'm just one person, but I'm not CDPR's customer anymore.

I got the feeling that it's absolutely not for my own good, buuut I'm gonna answer you since you addressed me directly. (And insulted me by the way. But never mind, I got a thick hide, I can take it).

~EDIT: Changed 'think hide' to 'thick hide' as it was supposed to be.~

My IQ: Well, I never really checked but from those free tests you can do on the Internet and all the experience I've had in school and at the university I'd estimate it to be around 120 if not higher. But thanks for asking, that reminds me to have that checked some day.

Did I understand you to have supported piracy? - Why, yes. For three reasons actually.
1. I never said that I believe you supported piracy. But you assumed it. - Wait, I just read my post again. Sorry I take it back. The part were I wrote 'your voiced opinion' should have meant 'the opinion (which wouldn't necessarily be your own) you voiced (or written for that matter)'. Sorry, English is not my mother tongue and I tend to change/correct the wording of my sentences at least twice which might lead to some wrong or ambiguous semantics.
So we're down to two reasons:
1. I assumed the opinions you wrote about to be your own since you also complained about the quality of CDP's game. There I saw parallels to why I pirated games in the past, so I thought the same to be true with you.
2. You were openly insulting CDP. You implied they'd be stupid. That's a familiar behavior for pirates.


And whether this topic was about piracy-vs-no-piracy:
NEWSFLASH: This topic is just about that.
If you'd have bothered to read this thread (the last 5 to 10 pages would have been enough) you would have seen that we were discussing exactly this: Is suing alleged pirates justified? Where is it justified to start fighting by suing alleged pirates? When/where is it somehow justified to pirate? What is the best way to fight piracy?

But then again you came here and brought up two lame excuses most pirates make (bad quality and no free demo) sounding like you support that view. (Especially with your statement that you'll never buy CDP's products anymore.)


To sum it up:
1. I try not to be insulted by what you said.
2. Sorry if I made the mistake of taking you for a pirate if you aren't.
3. Your point is not valid (as I showed in my last post) whether you support this view or not.
4. This topic is actually a discussion about piracy and we are thankful to have it - especially since it's so long-living. (The last discussions on that topic got locked down due to bad behavior of some.)
5. You might want to read the contend of a thread before you start posting in it.

 

[secondchildren]

@Android

Allow me to question your IQ and ask where in my post have I claimed piracy is ok? I said many people use piracy to test games and not just to play for free. Piracy is wrong but if Withcer 2 was a better game many would still buy a legal copy.

But this is not piracy-vs-no piracy discussion, you're in a wrong thread. This is a discussion about CDPR stopping legal threats for whatever reason. I think they finaly came to their senses and realized this was the wrong way to deal with piracy.

But I said what I came here to say in my previous post. I'm just one person, but I'm not CDPR's customer anymore.

Please, I'm asking you to not advocating piracy, no excuse and no apology for it.
Also, avoid rudeness to other users. This is a warning.

 

[YpSan]

I sincerely appologize if I have insulted Android. It was my honest response to someone who reads my post about CDPR taking wrong action against piracy and instead sees "I support piracy" in between the lines. Sorry for the insult but my first reaction is to question the IQ of the said person, that's just me. Sorry.

Simple people like to discuss simple subjects - as in piracy-vs-no piracy. Take that to a bit higher level and they won't follow. I may be wrong about Android but that's the impression you may leave on other people for simply not reading posts carefully.

But this is Witcher forum, I'm customer and despite not being very impressed by Witcher 1 and 2 I had respect for CDPR and had plans to support it in future. I expressed my opinion as it is now after what CDPR tried to pull off, and that's not what I expect from respectable company to do. Maqny of you think it's enough to be legal buyer to turn the blind eye to the actions CDPR took, but to me it shows the general attitude the company has towards their product and target market.

As Valve co-founder and CEO Gabe Newell said,
"In general, we think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy.Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem."
Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-11-28-valve-piracy-a-non-issue-for-steam

That's the kind of attitude I expect from respectable companies.

Oh and the fact I won't be missed was not a nice thing to say. I would never be a part of such unhealty community. Was I wrong about this community then juast as I was with CDPR? I guess I was.

Cheers

 

[YpSan]

EDIT
In case I still wasn't clear enough:

>>>> Piracy is illegal and bad, kids. Don't do it!

 

[andr01d]

I sincerely appologize if I have insulted Android. It was my honest response to someone who reads my post about CDPR taking wrong action against piracy and instead sees "I support piracy" in between the lines. Sorry for the insult but my first reaction is to question the IQ of the said person, that's just me. Sorry.

Simple people like to discuss simple subjects - as in piracy-vs-no piracy. Take that to a bit higher level and they won't follow. I may be wrong about Android but that's the impression you may leave on other people for simply not reading posts carefully.

But this is Witcher forum, I'm customer and despite not being very impressed by Witcher 1 and 2 I had respect for CDPR and had plans to support it in future. I expressed my opinion as it is now after what CDPR tried to pull off, and that's not what I expect from respectable company to do. Maqny of you think it's enough to be legal buyer to turn the blind eye to the actions CDPR took, but to me it shows the general attitude the company has towards their product and target market.

As Valve co-founder and CEO Gabe Newell said,
"In general, we think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy.Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem."
Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-11-28-valve-piracy-a-non-issue-for-steam

That's the kind of attitude I expect from respectable companies.

Oh and the fact I won't be missed was not a nice thing to say. I would never be a part of such unhealty community. Was I wrong about this community then juast as I was with CDPR? I guess I was.

Cheers

All right... I'd like to warn you again:
Again you're insulting people by calling them simple-minded. I just suggest you to take a step down to us simple-minded folks so you don't get banned by calling us simple-minded.

(I hereby vouch for you not to be banned because of your last posts because this discussion is just starting to get interesting for me.)

 

[andr01d]

All right, now for my real response:
(Sorry for the double-post. My posts tend to become very long, which takes some time to write them and I feared you might get (temporarily) banned by the time I finish my post. After all you already received your warning for insulting others.)

It's not that I wasn't able to follow your line of thought there. It was just that this opinion may be understandable for you since you deem CDP's games to be of less quality than you'd expect. But let me get some things straight for you:

1. CDPR tried everything to please their fans/customers by continuing support after a long time. You can't say they didn't try to make your money worthwhile.
2. CDPR pushed the Aurora Engine that was used by Bioware previously to their engine for Dragon Age: Origins to such limits with their first game that The Witcher had better graphics than DA:O. (This was what won me over to CDPR. I tried out DA:O because I found the trailers for that game to be awesome but was a little shocked at how dull everything looked in-game. TW1 was much better despite using the older engine.) Again, you can't say they didn't try.
3. As to loose the restrictions of another developers engine and to be able to make the game exactly as they wanted CDPR developed a completely new engine. Again you can't say they didn't try to deliver good quality.
4. Fans of both games seem to have a slightly different taste in games compared to the majority of gamers out there (who worship Bioware or Blizzard). So to keep those guys (I am one of them.) entertained CDP makes games that are a little different. That's why TW games are not to everyones' taste. They were never made to be. But that doesn't mean the quality of these games is bad.
5. For me TW1 offered an immersion to its story that no other game has. I simply couldn't stop playing that game. And from what I read from other fans of TW games here in this forum this seems to be true with most of them.

Yes, you could argue that due to recent bugs in TW2 you are disappointed by the quality of that game. I'd understand that. But then again bugs don't seem to be your issue, since you brought TESV: Skyrim as an example of a game you seem to have no complaints about.

Don't get me wrong.
I just say that you not liking TW games doesn't mean that the quality of those games is bad. They are just different but not bad (of quality) in general.


And what did CDP do (compared to other developers) that made you loose your trust?
They were trying to pursue pirates in Germany - as were many other game developers. Some of them still are doing it (secretly, mind you).
When this became public CDP first did everything to assure that nobody innocent got hurt. (Again no other company using the same lawyers in Germany did this.)
When still their fans protested against this move, they took their claims back and promised not to do such things again in the future. (Again, there are still other gaming companies out there who fine alleged pirates and who try to keep this secret.)

So CDP might have lost some trust when they started this campaign but after there was such an outcry from their fans they listened to those fans. They stopped pursuing pirates by fining them because their fans demanded it. That's a behavior that you don't find in many developing companies these days. And that's why I believe CDP earned a lot of support.
Not for making this mistake but for learning from it. For listening to their fans.


Now please, don't take me for a fanboy. I was not hating on you because of your different opinion. In fact I wasn't hating on you at all. I was trying to understand your view. To argument along your lines of thought as they become apparent to me from reading your posts. I was just trying to show you my opinion and asking what exactly yours is and what your motives are to think that way. I'd like this to turn into a civil conversation.