CDPR, are you sure? (about old gen and new gen consoles)

[LeKill3rFou]

It seems you understood correctly

The whole situation for me falls under non-compliance of the goods with the contract on a notion that CP77 on old-gen consoles will receive the same treatment as every other version, with the same features and being able to run the same expansions. People might have bought this version of the game under (as we now know false) developer's assurances that it's a full-fledged, complete product. This is of CDP's own making and now they should face the music with all of it's conseqences. For me they should simply behave as if old-gen version never existed (as it maybe shouldn't from the very beginning), which means that anyone who bought this version and is stuck with it should be fully reimbursed.

I'm sorry but they sold Cyberpunk as a "complete" product. The same game as the other platforms at release. But these "old" hardwares can't handle the new features that they want to add (CDPR can't make miracle...)

It's not new and happen all the times (for me at least^^). To take an "extrem" example. I still have my "old" iPhone 4 which run perfectly, most (if not all^^) of the Apps that I bought at time can't no longer run nor been installed on this iPhone (APIs are outdated or the hardware isn't powerful enough...). I'm lucky enough to buy regularely a new iPhone to "follow the evolution", but if it was not the case, I won't be able to use these Apps that I paid at all... and I woudn't get any refund^^.

Like I say, the only ones who have buy the Bundle on XB1x won't get the content that they paid for... But they will receive a refund obviously.

 

[Czembro]

I'm sorry but they sold Cyberpunk as a "complete" product. The same game as the other platforms at release. But these "old" hardwares can't handle the new features that they want to add (CDPR can't make miracle...)

It's not. The completion of the product should be measured against the same, most feature complete product. So in this case the PS5/XBS/PC version of the game is the one that can be considered 100% complete and any version inferior is, well, less than 100%, so it's not complete.

It's not new and happen all the times (for me at least^^). To take an "extrem" example. I still have my "old" iPhone 4 which run perfectly, most (if not all^^) of the Apps that I bought at time can't no longer run nor been installed on this iPhone (APIs are outdated or the hardware isn't powerful enough...). I'm lucky enough to buy regularely a new iPhone to "follow the evolution", but if it was not the case, I won't be able to use these Apps that I paid at all... and I woudn't get any refund^^.

Ah, but your example isn't really following the same logic
Firstly, you are comparing hardware here, so it's as if you would compare PS4 to PS5 and not the game itself.
Secondly for the phone's life as long as it's supported (so as long as it gets system updates) it is fully functional, or to follow your example, can run and install all the Apps. And something similar happens with software like games - at some point the support stops, so e.g. it may not run on future hardware because of system incompatibility. But in this case only some versions of the game are partialy loosing the support, so to refer to your example, it's as if your iPhone 4 didn't receive the update to the newest iOS version, rendering it unable to run and install Apps that require it, while your friend's iPhone 4 did receive the update and so their iPhone 4 is more feature complete - and that would be a strong case of non-compliance of the goods with the contract that would make you eligible for a full refund for your phone.

 

[GeneBox]

It seems you understood correctly

The whole situation for me falls under non-compliance of the goods with the contract on a notion that CP77 on old-gen consoles will not receive the same treatment as every other version, lacking some features and not being able to run the same expansions. People might have bought this version of the game under (as we now know false) developer's assurances that it's a full-fledged, complete product. This is of CDP's own making and now they should face the music with all of it's conseqences. For me they should simply behave as if old-gen version never existed (as it maybe shouldn't from the very beginning), which means that anyone who bought this version and is stuck with it should be fully reimbursed.

The game has been out for a long while now and while the launch was somewhat disastrous, CP2077 as is was a complete product. Refunding the game within the legally defined period for people who wanted a refund is fine. Expecting a refund now is just unreasonable.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

But in this case only some versions of the game are partialy loosing the support, so to refer to your example, it's as if your iPhone 4 didn't receive the update to the newest iOS version, rendering it unable to run and install Apps that require it, while your friend's iPhone 4 did receive the update and so their iPhone 4 is more feature complete - and that would be a strong case of non-compliance of the goods with the contract that would make you eligible for a full refund for your phone.

Not really, because in the case of the game, for example > XB1 = iPhone 4 and Series S/X = iPhone 5. Two different devices with different OS, hardware and performances.

Closer example :
- Two guys have an iPhone 4 and paid the same App (same price, same content).
- 6 months later, one of them buy the new iPhone 5 which have new APIs and new fonctionalities that the iPhone 4 don't have. The other dude can't buy the new iPhone for various reasons.
- Obviously, this App receive an update on the iPhone 5 including all the "new" features.
Unfortunately, the guy on the iPhone 4 who have paid the same price than his buddy for this App, won't get any of these new features and he does not longer have the same content... But won't get any refund anyway.

And the game is 100% complete in release state. Everything which was added afterward is a "bonus" content, nothing more.

 

[Czembro]

Not really, because in the case of the game, for example > XB1 = iPhone 4 and Series S/X = iPhone 5
Closer example :
- Two guys have an iPhone 4 and paid the same App (same price, same content).
- 6 months later, one of them buy the new iPhone 5 which have a new APIs and new fonctionalities that the iPhone 4 don't have. The other dude can't buy the new iPhone for various reasons.
- Obviously, this App receive an update on the iPhone 5 including all the "new" features.
Unfortunately, the guy on the iPhone 4 which have paid the same price than his buddy won't get any of these new features and won't get any refund because of that.

You are ommiting in your example a very important point of the discussion - an advertising of the app by the developer that no matter the iPhone version the app will have the same features. And then the developer updates the app for iPhone 5 with new feature that they're ommiting from iPhone 4 version. I would consider that a case for a refund for the app.
But your example with iPhones is sort of inadequate from a very start, as the apps are developed for system version, not iPhone version, so there is an additional layer that is not really present in the whole "Cyberpunk 2077 on old-gen" situation.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

You are ommiting in your example a very important point of the discussion - an advertising of the app by the developer that no matter the iPhone version the app will have the same features. And then the developer updates the app for iPhone 5 with new feature that they're ommiting from iPhone 4 version. I would consider that a case for a refund for the app.
But your example with iPhones is sort of inadequate from a very start, as the apps are developed for system version, not iPhone version, so there is an additional layer that is not really present in the whole "Cyberpunk 2077 on old-gen" situation.

And you also miss an important point which is, the game in a release state was/is considered as 100% complete. You can't expect a refund for "free" content added afterward or content that your didn't paid for. It's just not realist and won't happen anyway
Again, those who paid the "promised" content (XB1x Cyberpunk bundle) will receive a refund. Those who have only paid the "base game" which is complete won't

 

[Czembro]

You can't expect a refund for "free" content added afterward or content that your didn't paid for.

I don't. I would expect a refund (if I was an old-gen console user) for a non-compliance of the goods with the contract, contract being that the game on old-gen will receive all the same treatment as on any other platform.

 

[Andrew_Waples]

I don't. I would expect a refund (if I was an old-gen console user) for a non-compliance of the goods with the contract, contract being that the game on old-gen will receive all the same treatment as on any other platform.

You do realize the next gen update is free?

 

[Czembro]

You do realize the next gen update is free?

Yes, but the hardware is also a factor here - not everyone can access or afford a current-gen console, so the update is useless to them.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Yes, but the hardware is also a factor here - not everyone can access or afford a current-gen console, so the update is useless to them.

As far as I know, about the futur features and the expansion, the hardware is also the main "factor". CDPR don't "choose" to ignore PS4/XB1 players just to bother/annoy them... I'm sure that ignoring the majority of console players was a "difficult" decision. Decision which they probably didn't take between two coffee...
And they don't "abandon" old gen, they said that they will still work to improve performances, stability, quality,... But no miracle, old gen can't handle what PC and current gen could, simple as that.

I don't. I would expect a refund (if I was an old-gen console user) for a non-compliance of the goods with the contract, contract being that the game on old-gen will receive all the same treatment as on any other platform.

Which "contract" ?
(I maybe miss it^^)

Just to be sure, I'm not saying it's great, or that PS4 and XB1 players shouldn't be annoyed (sure I would be^^), but it's something which can/must be expected with games released between two generation of consoles when you are/stay on the older generation (whatever the reason).
That's why I bought a Series X. Not because my XB1x was "outdated", most of games can run smoothly in 4K on it, but I suspected that at some point, it will happen (and not only with Cyberpunk^^).

 

[Andrew_Waples]

Yes, but the hardware is also a factor here - not everyone can access or afford a current-gen console, so the update is useless to them.

If you really wanted next gen hardware, while hard it's not impossible. Also, they must feel that there is a considerable install base on next gen hardware already. Otherwise, I don't think they make this move.

 

[CTPhipps]

There's some clever marketing here.

Cyberpunk 2077 (PS4) is a distinct game from Cyberpunk 2077 (PS5). You can tell because they have different covers.

 

[Drakonaj]

I don't. I would expect a refund (if I was an old-gen console user) for a non-compliance of the goods with the contract, contract being that the game on old-gen will receive all the same treatment as on any other platform.

What contract? I dont remember signing anything. Idk, maybe they said it in interview? It still doesnt legaly bind them to do it. Just a quick reminder what happened with No Mans sky investigation. Shawn promised multiplayer and tons of different thing in interviews. We know how it went from there. Do you know what the official investigation stated? Not false advertisment, because multiplayer isnt writen on cover of the game.
This is not the first time devs did this. Rockstar stopped updating GTA 5 multiplayer on older consoles years ago. Biowares Dragon age Inquisition did the same thing with not releasing one DLC for older hardware. I dont remember any lawsuits or refunds.

 

[GrimReaper801]

I don't. I would expect a refund (if I was an old-gen console user) for a non-compliance of the goods with the contract, contract being that the game on old-gen will receive all the same treatment as on any other platform.

Leaving aside the absurdity of this entire argument and the fact you'd have no legal argument to stand on.

No judge, even in sue-happy America, would ever welcome such a claim. It would open the floodgates to a literal deluge of claims based on nothing else than people's personal opinions of what their product should be. It would be an absolute shit show of imagined slights based on how people feel their product should be performing.

By your own logic, my version of God of War (2018) is now incomplete. After all, the PC version has PC exclusive features! I should go ask for a refund. I was sold a complete product dammit! THEY LIED TO ME! And the PC version is much more glorious! (yes I bought it again on PC).... Surely you can understand the absurdity of this.

You could expect your refund all you want, you'd never get it.

 

[CTPhipps]

I regret they cancelled the Cyberpunk mutiplayer.

IN retrospect, that was clearly because they needed all hands on deck.

 

[DjSpyder]

There is NO guarantee that "Cross-Gen" games get the same features across the board. Not only is there no promise of that, but We've also seen that not even "Same Gen" games get the same content or treatment across platforms let alone generations.

The truth is, they are (Probably) making the right call here. We know exactly what went wrong with launch it was a combination of things. Red Engine not being optimized for several new things the studio was trying, the game being rushed, and Red Engine not cooperating with Previous-gen hardware.

Two of those Three things are not going away ever, and I Know this is the part where people say, "Oh but other games have done...." and that is irrelevant, those games were not made on Red Engine, so what the tech could do, and how it reacted to hardware is not the same. Honestly, they are admitting, their inhouse engine just was not good enough, they needed to keep adding new functionality to it as they were making the game, it basically created double the work and it was not the best workflow for them and did not provide the best product to the consumer.

It's refreshing in my opinion that CDPR admitted the shortcoming and is shifting to a new platform. People have been begging Bethesda to do that with the creation engine for years. But they refuse, and everyone used to give them a pass, oh good old Bethesda releasing a jenky game that will eventually be "good" but still kind of buggy. But with FO76 I think that ship has finally sailed if Starfield launches a buggy mess like other games that will probably be the thing that forces them onto UE as well.

Lastly a note on the switch. People play Nintendo for Nintendo games; ports of other games never preform as well in either sales or actual game performance on their consoles. Nintendo are never the powerhouse when it comes to Tech, they don't need to be, Pokémon is always gonna be Pokémon, Mario is always gonna be Mario, Zelda will always sell... Yes, some people only have one console, and it would be nice for them to get a chance to play this game. But it's unlikely, even sports franchises do not treat Nintendo the same way. FIFA "Legacy Edition" they literally sell the exact same game every year just update the rosters. There have been none of the "New" features the other platforms have gotten implemented onto the switch version since I think 2018. Nintendo of all things should not be a factor Nintendo generally has a very specific game type. SO, if other consoles are what actually matters in this move, then you have to take into account, anyone that owns CP2077 on PS4 or Xbox One, is still getting a free upgrade when they finally get a new console so all of these features will eventually get to them, so I just don't think it's really an issue.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I don't. I would expect a refund (if I was an old-gen console user) for a non-compliance of the goods with the contract, contract being that the game on old-gen will receive all the same treatment as on any other platform.

Spoiler: From Steam version EULA

"5 PATCHES, UPDATES AND CHANGES

We may (but are not obliged to) patch, update or change Cyberpunk 2077 over time (for example to add or remove features, to resolve software bugs or to balance the game). This will result in mandatory and/or automatic updates and older, non-updated versions may become unusable over time. We need these rights in order to keep Cyberpunk 2077 running efficiently and we reserve the right to do this without notice or liability to you."

Take note of the bolded text. Yeah, the context is a bit different from what is being discussed here. I'd think it applies here anyway. My powers of interpretation may be off base but it sure does read like there is no obligation to provide excess content beyond whatever was received at the point of purchase.

I'd note, I'm conflicted on this particular topic. On the one hand antiquated devices have to be left behind at some point. On the other hand, leaving them behind seems like something to do in between old, existing titles and new, upcoming titles. Not during the prime of an old, existing title.

I'd also expect ensuring ensuring software can function on it's intended hardware platforms would be part of the process. I'd extend this to providing enough headroom for expansion if it was in the long term plans. It just seems like the.... smarter play.

And they don't "abandon" old gen, they said that they will still work to improve performances, stability, quality,... But no miracle, old gen can't handle what PC and current gen could, simple as that.

Hmm, I always took the less features on old consoles as a "we could but it's not worth the trouble" type of deal.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Hmm, I always took the less features on old consoles as a "we could but it's not worth the trouble" type of deal.

If "old gen" represented a "minority" of console players, I could understand and agreed why it could be "it's not worth it".
But as far as I know (I could be wrong^^), it's not tha case... A majority of Xbox/playstation players still play on "old gen", so I think it's more than "it's not worth it", but rather something like "It's not possible".
Because damn, not releasing the expansion on the "old gen", it mean to let down a "big chunk of the console market" and a lot potential sales...

 

[Restlessdingo32]

If "old gen" represented a "minority" of console players, I could understand and agreed why it could be "it's not worth it".
But as far as I know (I could be wrong^^), it's not tha case... A majority of Xbox/playstation players still play on "old gen", so I think it's more than "it's not worth it", but rather something like "It's not possible".

None of the statements on the matter have ever said "it can't be done" to my knowledge. What they have said is something along the lines of "due to technical considerations these features will only be included on next-gen platforms".

Because damn, not releasing the expansion on the "old gen", it mean to let down a "big chunk of the console market" and a lot potential sales...

Yeah, it is potentially a setback for the bottom line. An expansion doesn't magically appear for free either. It costs money to make. Patches, updates, DLC. Even free ones. They incur cost. Developers freeing themselves from the burdens associated with trying to make things work on antiquated toasters might yield more sales due to better fleshed out functionality on the "next gen" devices. It's likely a calculated, albeit difficult, decision.

None of this is to say it's unacceptable. It's CDPR's company. It's CDPR's game. It does suggest questionable planning somewhere along the line though. Alas, shit does happen. Life goes on.

 

[Andrew_Waples]

If "old gen" represented a "minority" of console players, I could understand and agreed why it could be "it's not worth it".
But as far as I know (I could be wrong^^), it's not tha case... A majority of Xbox/playstation players still play on "old gen", so I think it's more than "it's not worth it", but rather something like "It's not possible".
Because damn, not releasing the expansion on the "old gen", it mean to let down a "big chunk of the console market" and a lot potential sales...

That's why they released on ps4 and Xbox One in the first place. However, they must've realised that whatever they wanted to do for the expansion just couldn't be done on old hardware. For what it's worth, that makes me more intrigued about the content and potential size of the expansion; especially since it can't handle old gen hardware.