Again, you can't blame engineers, people who do actual development, because again, they do what they are told to. They can raise alarms, try different approaches to be heard, but in the end - people that own company and management decides what to do and how to do it. For example they promised smart police AI knowing nothing about it. They come to software engineer and put that task at his table (if he even has the qualifications to create AIs). Engineer will do estimation about minimum time required to do it, which would be not a constant value but a range from a month to a year or two. He can work on that if management decides it is worth doing. But if at any point management will decide it is taking too long and it will simplified to something that can be done in couple of weeks or less, software engineer will comply and will do as he is told. And he can not just go out and complain publicly because NDA. All that is possible is raise concerns inside and pray. And software engineer can't be lazy because most work in agile methodology and if software engineer is not performing up to a certain standard it will be known in 1-2 sprints. If his performance can't normalize in 3-4 sprints he will get fired. For reference sprints are usually one, two or three weeks. So in 4 years of actual development unless CDPR replaced like entire software development team there is no freaking way any of the devs are lazy. Not possible.
It's called being responsible for your actions. People used to, but they also had pride in their work. Could also say that people used to keep their word.
Everyone who had knowledge is to blame. If you're aware of a crime and withhold information that can stop or prevent that crime you're wilfully aiding in its commission.
Before you claim there is no crime, that's what judges are going to decide, not fanbois, corporate apologists or forum users without direct involvement.
false, steam PC users cannot refund the game after 2 hours, despite the catastrophic glitch of the game bricking your playthrough if you attempt to do everything while using the systems offered. This was only discovered yesterday by users with 50+ hours
Developers do what they are told. It's like if your boss tells you to put a metal fork in the microwave and heat it for 10 minutes. It doesn't matter if you know it's wrong. It doesn't matter if you've told them it's wrong. If they want the fork heated in the microwave for 10 minutes, your choices are to heat the fork in the microwave for 10 minutes or to quit and the boss will find someone else to heat their fork in the microwave for 10 minutes.
No. Most people who had knowledge signed an NDA, which is basically a legally binding contract. Sure you can break the NDA, but that's breaking contract law and you open yourself get sued.
Commiting a crime is breaking criminal law, and you break no laws by reporting it. In fact, in most cases you're actually protected if you report it.
What CDPR did is not a crime. It's not a criminal offense to exaggerate or even lie. There's a difference between criminal and non-criminal law. Even with CDPR being sued, it's not under criminal law that they are going to be sued. If they lose, they aren't going to prison. There was no crime.
Steam says no and the helpmerefund email tells you to go back to steam. 6 days for an email to be told head on back jr.
every other entertainment industry has unions, guilds, and laws that offer real legal protection to those who are working on something that is being misrepresented or perverted by high ups. Here is an example:
Alan Smithee - Wikipedia
I made this thread to state that any excuses or deflections for anyone involved in this can be countered, and there are precedents for every point brought up to deflect blame or culpability of any member of CDPR.
False. I had 3.5 hours (4 according to a different Steam page) and got a refund.
the point is there is not an unconditional refund policy on PC.
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nneither of you have a fundamental understanding of what you are trying to discuss. please stop speculating about case procedures and laws
Dev team could have acted better, but most of them are pretty much not aware of how it could have been done better, while people that did made fake promises, made very questionable decisions and we got disaster on a scale of Battlefield 5, Mass Effect Andromeda, Fallout 4 and Fallout 76, other EA / Bethesda / other company name are still not held responsible. The history continues to repeat itself. Which means that there is a way more fundamental issue then just holding some or all people at fault. Yes, not knowing the law does not prevent you from responsibility, but at the same time if what you did does not break the law is not punishable.every other entertainment industry has unions, guilds, and laws that offer real legal protection to those who are working on something that is being misrepresented or perverted by high ups. Here is an example:
The devs should have unionized if it was this bad, or went on strike, like conscientious artists do in other entertainment projects. I am not trying to put all of the blame on the dev team specifically.Alan Smithee - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I made this thread to state that any excuses or deflections for anyone involved in this can be countered, and there are precedents for every point brought up to deflect blame or culpability of any member of CDPR.
It kinda feels on the same sour note as when any man gets destroyed by a fake female sexual abuse accusation, while females, in most cases, have no real consequences for their behavior
I work QA. I've worked closely with devs. I've sat with devs while we discussed possible ways to fix issues I entered. I know what they can and can't do. If management says drop that and work on this instead, you drop it and work on what they tell you.
If management tells you to change fundamental features because management's 8 year old was out of school one day and they had to bring them to the office and the 8 year old didn't like how that feature worked, I'm sorry but you're changing that feature because an 8 year old didn't like it. It doesn't matter if the game isn't being made for 8 year olds. Management decides, and if they want change just to make their 8 year old happy, then change is happening. I've actually seen it happen.
I think I have a better fundamental understanding about how things work since it's actually connected to my work.
Oh and it's pretty common knowledge that there's a difference between criminal law and common/civil law, or can you please tell me what articles of the Criminal Code did CDPR break. You can't because no crime was committed.
What CDRP did is possibly break common/civil law, and would be sued under common/civil law.
Oh but I don't have fundamental understanding, oh wait the very first result when googling the question says I do:
Civil Law vs. Criminal Law: Breaking Down the Differences
Civil law vs. criminal law can be confusing. Join us as we investigate the differences.
Oh and here's an actual lawyer explaining it. Notice how he never mentions criminal, crime or anything like that because it's not a criminal suit.
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Any ONE employee could have spoken out about this. Even kept their identity secret. They chose to be quiet and go with it. Its absolutely ALL of their fault.
According to Jason Schreier if im not mistaken, it looks like the management (Kicinski and so on) ignored their devs and lied to shareholders.
Shareholders became impatient only after management said the game is done in january and were to be released in april but delayed it to september and delayed it again. If they would have listened to their devs and told shareholders that it needs more time, shareholders would probably be cool about it.
I myself believe the fault is wholeheartedly the management and only theirs. There has been some shady stuff going on about workforce environment and toxic behaviour from the management itself towards staff. But that is just what i have been told from a cousin working on a IT company that has CDPR as a customer in Poland, so take that with a grain of salt lol because it may just be rumours at best.
Shareholders became impatient only after management said the game is done in january and were to be released in april but delayed it to september and delayed it again. If they would have listened to their devs and told shareholders that it needs more time, shareholders would probably be cool about it.
I myself believe the fault is wholeheartedly the management and only theirs. There has been some shady stuff going on about workforce environment and toxic behaviour from the management itself towards staff. But that is just what i have been told from a cousin working on a IT company that has CDPR as a customer in Poland, so take that with a grain of salt lol because it may just be rumours at best.
Problem is, there SHOULD be criminal regulatuons on software so companies dont keep doin this. No mans sky, anthem, destiny 1 and 2, this, and every single ea sports game.I work QA. I've worked closely with devs. I've sat with devs while we discussed possible ways to fix issues I entered. I know what they can and can't do. If management says drop that and work on this instead, you drop it and work on what they tell you.
If management tells you to change fundamental features because management's 8 year old was out of school one day and they had to bring them to the office and the 8 year old didn't like how that feature worked, I'm sorry but you're changing that feature because an 8 year old didn't like it. It doesn't matter if the game isn't being made for 8 year olds. Management decides, and if they want change just to make their 8 year old happy, then change is happening. I've actually seen it happen.
I think I have a better fundamental understanding about how things work since it's actually connected to my work.
Oh and it's pretty common knowledge that there's a difference between criminal law and common/civil law, or can you please tell me what articles of the Criminal Code did CDPR break. You can't because no crime was committed.
What CDRP did is possibly break common/civil law, and would be sued under common/civil law.
Oh but I don't have fundamental understanding, oh wait the very first result when googling the question says I do:
Civil Law vs. Criminal Law: Breaking Down the Differences
Civil law vs. criminal law can be confusing. Join us as we investigate the differences.www.rasmussen.edu
Oh and here's an actual lawyer explaining it. Notice how he never mentions criminal, crime or anything like that because it's not a criminal suit.
Until they are held legally responsible for knowingly deceiving the public and releasing a game that should have never been certified (ms and sony are at fault too for taking their word itd be fixed before launch), this will continue to be an upward trend in the industry.
It's absolutely a crime and I cannot begin to fathom you don't see that. As far as that pathetic defense that you shut up and do what you're told, American soldiers tried that bullshit defense in Vietnam and it didn't work then either. Unless your life is directly threatened to commit a crime, you have a choice to ignore the request. If it's not a valid defense during a deadly situation like combat, it's sure as hell not valid in a business office.
Have you been living under a rock the past two years, and not followed a single news article about this game since August 2018. Employees have said stuff, quite a bit of stuff, actually. Big example, the crunch fiasco where employees were spilling the beans left and right to various game journalism outfits.
Just because you didn't pay attention doesn't mean they didn't say anything.
It is a crime. Sony has been nailed multiple times for misleading and misrepresentation. More directly, look at the Aliens: Colonial Marines debacle. What a shitstorm that was, and about the exact same thing here.
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Hmm Canadian government calls it a crime. Note it's a government page and not some Youtube rube.
False or Misleading Representations and Deceptive Marketing Practices
The Competition Act contains provisions addressing false or misleading representations and deceptive marketing practices in promoting the supply or use of a product or any business interest. All representations, in any form whatever, that are false or misleading in a material respect are subject...
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Lets get the facts straight:
1. CDPR lied to their investors/public about the playability of Cyberpunk 2077 on PS4 and XBOX ONE.
2. CDPR lied about the actual development state of Cyberpunk 2077.
3. Kiciński Michał single-handed crushed the CDPR stock at 4.12.2020 by selling approx 200 mln Polish Złoty worth of stock. First cyberpunk reviews were out 07.12.2020. But review copies were sent a few days before... Could it be 4.12.2020? source link
4. Most content that where promised is cut from the game. By comparison GTA V (from 2013) has more working mechanics than Cyberpunk 2077 (2020).
When the investors make a case out of this and the legal grinder starts to work, CDPR employees will called in to testify under oath. This is truly the beginning of the end for CDPR. No brown-nosing Communist China trough the GOG portal or avoiding anti-China communist stuff inside Cyberpunk 2077 will help them. When you go to bed with the stock market you have sold your soul. It's game over. There ain't even seven bad ends here, only one.
Still, we had a damn good ride wile it lasted with Witcher 3 as the crowning jewel.
1. CDPR lied to their investors/public about the playability of Cyberpunk 2077 on PS4 and XBOX ONE.
2. CDPR lied about the actual development state of Cyberpunk 2077.
3. Kiciński Michał single-handed crushed the CDPR stock at 4.12.2020 by selling approx 200 mln Polish Złoty worth of stock. First cyberpunk reviews were out 07.12.2020. But review copies were sent a few days before... Could it be 4.12.2020? source link
4. Most content that where promised is cut from the game. By comparison GTA V (from 2013) has more working mechanics than Cyberpunk 2077 (2020).
When the investors make a case out of this and the legal grinder starts to work, CDPR employees will called in to testify under oath. This is truly the beginning of the end for CDPR. No brown-nosing Communist China trough the GOG portal or avoiding anti-China communist stuff inside Cyberpunk 2077 will help them. When you go to bed with the stock market you have sold your soul. It's game over. There ain't even seven bad ends here, only one.
Still, we had a damn good ride wile it lasted with Witcher 3 as the crowning jewel.
It is NOT a crime. No one at Sony or CDPR went to or are facing jail time. They face fines. That's it. You go to jail for crimes, pay fines in civil matters.
Again, show me where in the CRIMINAL CODE anything was broken. A CRIME is an offence against the criminal code.
Here's the criminal code. I would have posted Poland's but they are largely the same and this website is formatted better: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I
What crime did they commit exactly?
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It is a crime. Sony has been nailed multiple times for misleading and misrepresentation. More directly, look at the Aliens: Colonial Marines debacle. What a shitstorm that was, and about the exact same thing here.
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Hmm Canadian government calls it a crime. Note it's a government page and not some Youtube rube.
False or Misleading Representations and Deceptive Marketing Practices
The Competition Act contains provisions addressing false or misleading representations and deceptive marketing practices in promoting the supply or use of a product or any business interest. All representations, in any form whatever, that are false or misleading in a material respect are subject...www.competitionbureau.gc.ca
Well whadya know, illegal in United States too. Again, a reliable source:
False Advertising or Labeling - The Rights and Remedies | Stimmel Law
Any party that sells or distributes any product which falsely characterizes or mislabels the content, character, origin or utility of the product faces significant liability both in the civil and criminal arenas. Further, if one is in the chain of distribution and knew or should have known that...