You're ignoring the fact that "just 9 months ago", the game boasted over 8 million sales in the PC marketspace alone. So less than 20k players 9 months later is a bit pitiful, don't you think? Skyrim, which launched 9 YEARS ago, is doing exponentially better. Now ask yourself..... why?
Agreed. It's a pointless back and forth that leads to nowhere. It's obvious that CDPR sees at least some value in going so far as to develop an official toolset with which to mod the game. And as a modder myself, I see the value a powerful tool can provide, because I'm already concepting the kinds of stuff I'd like to create, "IF" the tool affords me the opportunity. If it doesn't? Well, back to modding Skyrim and Fallout 4 I go. And I won't be alone. And that's my point.
For all intents and purposes, CDPR didn't hire "modders". They hired a company "comprised of modders" to help build this toolset and work on the game. While not mutually exclusive, isn't this how CDPR started? A group largely comprised of modders who worked together to build what would eventually become some of the best games on the market? Am I the only one sensing a theme here?
I'm not going to point any fingers. Nexus used to be the modding community's "safe space". Not so much these days. And along with their more recent "practices", many of the best modders are leaving.
Suffice to say, that Bethesda's games would NOT have fared as well as they have without the power of the tools they came with to mod them. And CDPR has an opportunity to capitalize on that same level of success, and well beyond. IF their toolset affords it.
I guess we'll know soon enough.
You couldn't be more wrong. Story driven games are THE magnet for the more advanced modders. Enderal is all the evidence you'd ever need of that. Enderal is just the biggest. A total transformation. But there are many high quality, story driven quest mods available on Nexus. Mods like Falskaar, Wyrmstooth, Moonpath, and Beyond Skyrim breathed new life into the game.
Why would ANYONE be resistant to those same levels of success for THIS game (and the modders who created those stories)?
It's mind boggling.
in this last part i couldnt agree more, ive seen so many things in skyrimYou're ignoring the fact that "just 9 months ago", the game boasted over 8 million sales in the PC marketspace alone. So less than 20k players 9 months later is a bit pitiful, don't you think? Skyrim, which launched 9 YEARS ago, is doing exponentially better. Now ask yourself..... why?
Agreed. It's a pointless back and forth that leads to nowhere. It's obvious that CDPR sees at least some value in going so far as to develop an official toolset with which to mod the game. And as a modder myself, I see the value a powerful tool can provide, because I'm already concepting the kinds of stuff I'd like to create, "IF" the tool affords me the opportunity. If it doesn't? Well, back to modding Skyrim and Fallout 4 I go. And I won't be alone. And that's my point.
For all intents and purposes, CDPR didn't hire "modders". They hired a company "comprised of modders" to help build this toolset and work on the game. While not mutually exclusive, isn't this how CDPR started? A group largely comprised of modders who worked together to build what would eventually become some of the best games on the market? Am I the only one sensing a theme here?
I'm not going to point any fingers. Nexus used to be the modding community's "safe space". Not so much these days. And along with their more recent "practices", many of the best modders are leaving.
Suffice to say, that Bethesda's games would NOT have fared as well as they have without the power of the tools they came with to mod them. And CDPR has an opportunity to capitalize on that same level of success, and well beyond. IF their toolset affords it.
I guess we'll know soon enough.
You couldn't be more wrong. Story driven games are THE magnet for the more advanced modders. Enderal is all the evidence you'd ever need of that. Enderal is just the biggest. A total transformation. But there are many high quality, story driven quest mods available on Nexus. Mods like Falskaar, Wyrmstooth, Moonpath, and Beyond Skyrim breathed new life into the game.
Why would ANYONE be resistant to those same levels of success for THIS game (and the modders who created those stories)?
It's mind boggling.
Proceeds to list mods for Skyrim...
Story-driven games are Cyberpunk, The Witcher series, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Deus Ex, Red Dead Redemption, Assassin's Creed (at least the old ones were), etc...
Skyrim, Oblivion, Bethesda's Fallout, Minecraft, No Man's Sky, Mount and Blade and the like are not story-driven games.
Reading your answers make me think that perhaps CDPR has suffered the situation that we all know as something totally necessary as it enters a stage of success and recognition thanks to its work on The Witcher 3.You're ignoring the fact that "just 9 months ago", the game boasted over 8 million sales in the PC marketspace alone. So less than 20k players 9 months later is a bit pitiful, don't you think? Skyrim, which launched 9 YEARS ago, is doing exponentially better. Now ask yourself..... why?
Agreed. It's a pointless back and forth that leads to nowhere. It's obvious that CDPR sees at least some value in going so far as to develop an official toolset with which to mod the game. And as a modder myself, I see the value a powerful tool can provide, because I'm already concepting the kinds of stuff I'd like to create, "IF" the tool affords me the opportunity. If it doesn't? Well, back to modding Skyrim and Fallout 4 I go. And I won't be alone. And that's my point.
For all intents and purposes, CDPR didn't hire "modders". They hired a company "comprised of modders" to help build this toolset and work on the game. While not mutually exclusive, isn't this how CDPR started? A group largely comprised of modders who worked together to build what would eventually become some of the best games on the market? Am I the only one sensing a theme here?
I'm not going to point any fingers. Nexus used to be the modding community's "safe space". Not so much these days. And along with their more recent "practices", many of the best modders are leaving.
Suffice to say, that Bethesda's games would NOT have fared as well as they have without the power of the tools they came with to mod them. And CDPR has an opportunity to capitalize on that same level of success, and well beyond. IF their toolset affords it.
I guess we'll know soon enough.
You couldn't be more wrong. Story driven games are THE magnet for the more advanced modders. Enderal is all the evidence you'd ever need of that. Enderal is just the biggest. A total transformation. But there are many high quality, story driven quest mods available on Nexus. Mods like Falskaar, Wyrmstooth, Moonpath, and Beyond Skyrim breathed new life into the game.
Why would ANYONE be resistant to those same levels of success for THIS game (and the modders who created those stories)?
It's mind boggling.
Cyberpunk 2077 has brought to light everything that still has to advance and improve since this IP demands much more complex systems than those we see in many moments in the game (that's why it is sublime at the same time as disappointing). It can be said that Cyberpunk 2077 has allowed CDPR to know its great limitations and that it has made them see all the reforms that the CDPR group needs both in its internal organization, work teams and development of its Red Engine.
Far from seeing it as a bad thing, it seems to me that we have experienced the beginning of the CDPR evolution in a new stage that will be very interesting and what will be a new stage of growth in its Red Engine for what is to come in the future. Cyberpunk breathes on an engine that needs improvements and new more advanced systems.
What these guys at CDPR have accomplished with Cyberpunk 2077 is A LOT, but what they can achieve by further developing their Red Engine and allowing the Night City experience to be expanded with Modders' work can be EVERYTHING.
The tools that Cyberpunk 2077 has for modifications, I suppose it will be the same as for The Witcher 3
Right now the mods available are:
For Cyberpunk: 1970
For The Witcher 3: 4244
Cyberpunk is only 9 months old, The Witcher 3 went on sale in 2015, 6 years ago.
I think it's clear that modders are really looking forward to working with Cyberpunk 2077 and as I said before CDPR has created the perfect playground for modders with such a large city supporting so much additional content.
CDPR will once again tell us incredible stories in Night city, we will see an evolution of its game and its Red Engine and hopefully the modders can give us incredible surprises.
Slightly off topic but SKSE does require steam, officially, mate.Now show me the Steam DB statistic for the players running the game through the SKSE32 and SKSE64 loaders.
Oh, that's right. You can't.
Sorry, bro. Steam DB is useless as PROOOOOOOF!!!!! when it comes to Skyrim or Fallout 4, which can both be run without runnng Steam
I do agree with some of your points, but @ooodrin's point still stands.
It would be wonderful to have an extensive mod tool for Cyberpunk and all RedEngine games, really, but both Bethesda and Microsoft have been trying to cash in on mods for the last decade so having Mic buy BethSoft is not a good thing by any stretch for the community of freelance modders and I stand by that until proven otherwise.
I sincerely hope CDPR is not following that trend.
Hasn't it crossed your mind that it's perhaps not dependant on whether a game is story driven or sandbox but rather on how extensive the modding tools are for each game and how popular the game is?Proceeds to list mods for Skyrim...
Story-driven games are Cyberpunk, The Witcher series, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Deus Ex, Red Dead Redemption, Assassin's Creed (at least the old ones were), etc...
Skyrim, Oblivion, Bethesda's Fallout, Minecraft, No Man's Sky, Mount and Blade and the like are not story-driven games.
The Witcher 1 had great modding tools, as did The Witcher 2, as did Dragon Age Origins. None of them proved to be popular with modders like sandbox games.
Seems some new "tools" has already been released(not by this company). Script extenders and wolvenkit, dunno how good they are tho since i unistalled the game.
As for the whole sandbox vs "story driven" its kinda weird tbh, a sandbox game can be story driven too(This game is a good example of that) but i think the main thing with a sandbox is its easier too implement new stuff in the world you allready have. You can add a cave or something pretty easily in these kinda games instead of having too add full spaces into the already existing small worldspace of a game thats not a sandbox game.
I mod most games i play too some extent, bug fixes or high res textures. The ones i go crazy in is the ones that has solid mod support and tools.
Tbh i cant really see the downside with mods, if you want the vanilla experiance you just have too not install any mods so...
As for the whole sandbox vs "story driven" its kinda weird tbh, a sandbox game can be story driven too(This game is a good example of that) but i think the main thing with a sandbox is its easier too implement new stuff in the world you allready have. You can add a cave or something pretty easily in these kinda games instead of having too add full spaces into the already existing small worldspace of a game thats not a sandbox game.
I mod most games i play too some extent, bug fixes or high res textures. The ones i go crazy in is the ones that has solid mod support and tools.
Tbh i cant really see the downside with mods, if you want the vanilla experiance you just have too not install any mods so...
The witcher 3 was CDPRs first attempt at an open world. CP was now the second and it was anotger studio that was in charge of that open world. How well do you guys think this connection was made in the game?
Yes CP is very story driven AND it provides an open world experience aswell. Some of us are more attracted to one side of it or the other or both. I don't imagine a lot of mods changing the main and secondary missions but for the open world mechanics, assets...
Yes CP is very story driven AND it provides an open world experience aswell. Some of us are more attracted to one side of it or the other or both. I don't imagine a lot of mods changing the main and secondary missions but for the open world mechanics, assets...
That's why I think the game has to also meet the other condition I mentioned, be a hit. The Witcher 1 and 2 were simply not that big.
Proceeds to list mods for Skyrim...
Story-driven games are Cyberpunk, The Witcher series, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Deus Ex, Red Dead Redemption, Assassin's Creed (at least the old ones were), etc...
Skyrim, Oblivion, Bethesda's Fallout, Minecraft, No Man's Sky, Mount and Blade and the like are not story-driven games.
Congrats on missing the larger point. The stories created by the mods that a vanilla game DIDN'T provide, and how the long term success of the game benefitted from them.
I stand corrected, though not entirely off the mark given Steam's "offline mode" capability. Which is contrary to how Steam DB generates it's statistics. So while he may be "partly" correct, I'm not "entirely" wrong. Regardless, it doesn't really change the underlying premise of the example. Cyberpunk 2077 is simply faring FAR worse than other games 9 months out from launch. Especially after 8 million sales in the PC space alone, which runs the game MUCH more stable, reliably, and with fewer instances of bugs and glitches.
CDPR is a business. First and foremost. And like any business, certain concessions must be made to further the bottom line. It's the path they chose when they became a publicly traded company. And as a mod creator myself, I can certainly relate to the disdain for ANY company that seeks to directly benefit financially from the work that modders provide for free. Microsoft may be greedy, but Todd Howard isn't stupid. He knows the value modding brings to his studio's games. Starfield is his baby. The game he's longed to create for over two decades. There's room in the market for compromise. Especially in this age of modding for consoles, and the rising cries in the console space for the ability to benefit from mods.
So you have to wonder, does CDPR really "need" to "cash in" on mods?
I would argue not. Why? Because by starting at the beginning, in the infancy of this generation of their game engine, the mods created by a powerful, fleshed out toolset could be an immensely driving factor in the long term success of not only this, but any future title they are or intend to build upon it. It's a golden opportunity to turn tragic loss into a major win.
Again, I really don't get the animosity this subject seems to quell up in some people. If often leads to me questioning why I even bother to continue modding games at all. We're ALL looking to meet the same end. A highly successful and enjoyable game to play, and long term success for the company that brought it to us.
The problem wasn't the "type of game". It was the utter weakness of the tools provided. Simple as that.
The Witcher 2 was a hit, many people don't remember anymore how successful it was because TW3 became a global sensation and overshadowed its predecessors. TW2 was hardly the game no one heard about in 2011 and 2012.
What about Dragon Age Origins? Or Neverwinter Nights? Or Deus Ex 1? All moddable, all famous, successful and recognized as great games. But only Neverwinter Nights was attractive to modders and even that one pales in comparison to the modding scene of sanbox games.
How did this 100% positive thing turn into such an argument?
Whether you use mods or not, this is a win for players and CDPR. It can only improve the game, it's success and it's longevity. I doubt we'll ever see mod support for consoles with CP2077 but even then, this is a positive thing.
Mod creators have proven time and time again that they can come up with content of the same quality some of the best developers create.
This whole argument is completely useless but here is another useless fact. I would never have bought Fallout 3, Fallout 4 or Skyrim and all their DLCs after the mediocrity that was vanilla Oblivion. Another useless fact is that Skyrim has sold a little over 30 million copies. SkyUI5 has a little over 6 million unique downloads. That's 6 million users who are clearly interested in mods. Even if those 30 million copies sold were all on PC (and we all know they were not), it's still a sizeable chunk of people who are interested in mods and that is just one single mod.
Another fun and useless fact. I wouldn't be playing CP2077 right now if it wasn't for the full rebalance mod. Patch 1.3 didn't address any of the issues I had with the game. The fact that CP2077 is story-driven is completely irrelevant to me. The issues I have with the vanilla games stop me from enjoying the game as a whole. At this point in time, I would gladly buy any DLC CDPR comes up with because I have that mod (and a few others that are less necessary to my enjoyment) but if that mod wasn't available? CDPR wouldn't get a cent from me. Something I never thought I'd say of CDPR, believe me.
To say that mods don't greatly contribute to a game's longevity, keep it relevant and contribute to increased sales is wrong. To this day I would gladly buy any DLC Bethesda released for Skyrim. It's 10 years old, yet, with the right mods it looks great even by today's standards and I can even keep the mechanics fresh.
Yet, all of this is completely irrelevant in this thread. Clearly CDPR sees enough potential for a return on their investment to invest money in another company to produce better tools. They recognize the potential mods have and, more importantly, the potential the world they've built has. The potential for storytelling and additional content of all kinds in Night City is astounding.
This is a win for everyone. Even if you're playing on console and can't enjoy the greatness of modding, the boost in PR for CDPR is a great thing in and of itself for their longevity. There is absolutely no reason for any kind of animosity in this thread.
Whether you use mods or not, this is a win for players and CDPR. It can only improve the game, it's success and it's longevity. I doubt we'll ever see mod support for consoles with CP2077 but even then, this is a positive thing.
Mod creators have proven time and time again that they can come up with content of the same quality some of the best developers create.
This whole argument is completely useless but here is another useless fact. I would never have bought Fallout 3, Fallout 4 or Skyrim and all their DLCs after the mediocrity that was vanilla Oblivion. Another useless fact is that Skyrim has sold a little over 30 million copies. SkyUI5 has a little over 6 million unique downloads. That's 6 million users who are clearly interested in mods. Even if those 30 million copies sold were all on PC (and we all know they were not), it's still a sizeable chunk of people who are interested in mods and that is just one single mod.
Another fun and useless fact. I wouldn't be playing CP2077 right now if it wasn't for the full rebalance mod. Patch 1.3 didn't address any of the issues I had with the game. The fact that CP2077 is story-driven is completely irrelevant to me. The issues I have with the vanilla games stop me from enjoying the game as a whole. At this point in time, I would gladly buy any DLC CDPR comes up with because I have that mod (and a few others that are less necessary to my enjoyment) but if that mod wasn't available? CDPR wouldn't get a cent from me. Something I never thought I'd say of CDPR, believe me.
To say that mods don't greatly contribute to a game's longevity, keep it relevant and contribute to increased sales is wrong. To this day I would gladly buy any DLC Bethesda released for Skyrim. It's 10 years old, yet, with the right mods it looks great even by today's standards and I can even keep the mechanics fresh.
Yet, all of this is completely irrelevant in this thread. Clearly CDPR sees enough potential for a return on their investment to invest money in another company to produce better tools. They recognize the potential mods have and, more importantly, the potential the world they've built has. The potential for storytelling and additional content of all kinds in Night City is astounding.
This is a win for everyone. Even if you're playing on console and can't enjoy the greatness of modding, the boost in PR for CDPR is a great thing in and of itself for their longevity. There is absolutely no reason for any kind of animosity in this thread.
I don't know who have said mods are bad or useless. They are created by pationate modders who work for "free" (yes, it's work). If you don't like something in a vanilla game, there are chance that a modder can provide a mod for fix that.
They are great and it's a really a good new that CDPR care about mods, no doubt
My point, for say franckly :
"Are those who play modded games 10 years after the release, really bring cash to Studios ?"
(for me, it seem to be "possibly not enough" for most of studios).
Because that the main reason for studios to make games, make money... they are not charities (opposite to modders who make mods for pleasure, for fun, because they love the games and above all, for free).
There are also plenty of games who few months after the release, no one (or almost) play on them > RE - Village. But they still considered as "success" for studios.
Knowing that for Bethesda is quite "unic" for me (or almost). For example, I imagine if the next Bethesda game will no longer support mods or won't provide any modding tool, that could be (very) bad for the sells, for sure. So for me, Bethesda is now "stuck" with mods and have to think about mods even before the release of games.
So even a "modest" modding tool and a "basic" mod compatibility in the game, will be great and sufficient for now (and if it's better than Bethesda, no one could complain about that...)
Edit : After there may be other reasons than "money" for studios to limiting mods on their games. Like not giving "anyone" a free and full access to the game code (to keep their "secrets").
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And I don't know why you seem to think I said that because I clearly didn't. It's literally not what I wrote. Twisting someone's words isn't exactly conducive to a healthy conversation.
Let me be clear, I think removing mod support altogether from their games would be very bad for sales. On PC especially. I know I wouldn't buy their games unless the reviews are extraordinary OR with a massive discount. Not because they're "stuck" with mods after nearly two decades of providing support for them but because Besthesda's games have been rather average without mods since Oblivion.
Additionally, the only reason Bethesda isn't taking more of my money and plenty of other people's is because they're not making new DLC for Skyrim or Fallout 4. If tomorrow they released a new x-pack for Skyrim I'd buy it in a second. Even if it was priced as a full game and provided half the map size of Skyrim or Fallout 4, I'd buy it. Simply because I have over 1.3K hours spent in Skyrim. I've never spent anywhere near that amount of time in any other game in my entire life (FO4 being closest at 850). All because of mods. I've already invested over 500$ for FO3, Skyrim and FO4 and all their DLCs. Moreover it's 500$ they never would've gotten from me if it wasn't for their support of mods and I know plenty who think just like me. Heck, I know mod creators who buy their games ONLY to create stuff, the only time they start the games up is to test their newest creation/update.
This is what exceptional mod support brings.
Then again, Skyrim is getting yet another release. The anniversary edition. Know of any other game that was re-released, what? 3 times? This time it's with over 500 piece of additional content from the creation club. Obviously Bethesda believes in mods' capabilities to generate more revenue and who could possibly know better than any of us than them?
Then again, this entire conversation is moot. As you've said, CDPR is in it for the money. If it's not a non-profit, it's sole purpose of existence is profits. Plain and simple.
Think about it for a second. A for profit organization just invested money into another company to create/improve tools to further expand mod support. Don't fool yourself into thinking they did it because they care. They did it because they see a potentially big return on their investment. That's literally what a for profit company is all about. They probably have plenty of analyses saying they'll see a return on their investment.
A set of tools anywhere close to what Bethesda offers would catapult this game to a whole other level on PC. I doubt we'll see mod support on console but if it happens, all the better. CP2077 has incredible modding potential. Games with that kind of modding potential are few and far between. CDPR would be foolish not to capitalize on it and it seems they agree.