CDPR, stop with the 1st person (explained)

[krismate]

CP2077 is an intimate RPG that goes out of it's way to provide a very seamless and immersive experience. First-person perspective is part of that and aids that very well. First-person with dialogue scenes in CP2077 is simply far more immersive and puts YOU in the seat to experience the scene. Third-person is much more disconnected and instead of a feeling of being in the dialogue scene, you're now just watching it like a TV show.

There's no way CDPR drop first-person for Cyberpunk 2 but there's a chance they add a toggle for third-person, like starfield does. Only issue with that is now things like animations and level design all have to accommodate both views and you can easily end up with something that feels/plays terribly for both as a result.

If CDPR want Cyberpunk 2 to follow the footsteps of CP2077, they should just stick to first-person only.

 

[09armageddon]

Hard disagree! No 3rd person please. Now this game is not a full immersive sim but it does have elements of it. One of the core tenets of immersive sims is not breaking first person perspective and that CP 2077 does really well.

 

[Notserious80]

While i do agree with 1 person being pretty immersive its also pretty faulty in some ways. The perspective feels very wrong for me at times since its limited to 100 degree. Also no V reflections and modeling is very very wonky. If they stick with 1 person in CP2 i hope they will fix the wonky model atleast, hopefully V wont be a vampire either. I kinda dont like that i cant se my character in the game except in photo mode or loading another model for the mirror. Clothing and so on kinda looses its point due to i never seeing it in anything other then ending and menus. Im not sure that switcheble would be better tho so... They can do whatever they want and if it sucks ill just skip it

 

[Lu_131]

1st Person is just so much more immersive. They definately should keep this for orion.
I have no problem with an additional 3rd person option

 

[Aegethir]

I made another post about a week back talking about my dislike for 1st person and how I hope CDPR doesn't make another 1st person game unfortunately I referenced CP to much without explanation, here is the post:

"CDPR please never ever make another first person game, I am begging you, the original plan was to make this game third person, you should have kept it that way or make the option for third because every time I play this I just think of the other RPGs I've played that was third including Witcher and just think how much better CP2077 would be, whoever thought first was a good idea, they were INCREDIBLY wrong"

Now yes I can see how it works for CP, not going to deny it does, I was also annoyed at the time of the post just getting out of mass effect where 3rd person is in my opinion amazing, that's besides the point, 1st person in CP does work but also feel it made a lot pointless, the in depth character customization for one and the changing of clothes especially now with them just being cosmetic. Another user did point out that making the post was pointless and they're right but only because I referenced CP so much it seemed like I was saying they should change CP, that was my mistake. I meant more they shouldn't do another CP like they have, if they do they should at least consider making 3rd person an option like ghost recon, where you can move in 3rd but combat can be 1st, I have played the game recently (right now actually have it paused as I type) and I have decided to play with a new mindset. I can see how 1st is good for this game but I do also think 3rd could have worked especially as a hybrid

The only game that got the first person right regarding natural character movement and immersion is Dying Light. Unfortunately for us, CDPR didn't really nail their version of first person camera. You can figure that out from the plethora of different controls for the camera only, and most of them will work if turned all the way to zero, or brought to a minimum from their default settings.

And I am afraid that the next Cyberpunk game will still be first person as well. Easy way out for them.

 

[IndifferentEmpathy]

I don't remember playing a game in first person and being able to see my character reflexion

GTA V had proper first person + third person support so as result when in first person all reflections etc used third person model

RDR2 had the same as well.

So yes, it is possible to have both modes supported without any compromises.

Post automatically merged: Oct 7, 2023

Same guy who said that there actually wasn't anything wrong with Cyberpunk at launch and it 'became cool' to hate on Cyberpunk?

He should do Cyberpunk launch build playthrough on PS4 on stream

 

[LeKill3rFou]

So yes, it is possible to have both modes supported without any compromises.

Nope, like I said, GTA and RDR2 are third person view game, on which RockStar applied a first person view.
If you think that just adding a third person camera for wandering or for combats in Cyberpunk like it's the case while driving (but keep everything else in first person) is a "good/perfect" implementation of the third person view, well... not sure what to say.

 

[thecatalystr]

Hard disagree. This game should never be 3rd person. Don't even give us a toggle on/off option. It's perfect the way it is. I don't even know where 3rd person idea came to people but this game doesn't need it.

 

[DonLuzolvaz]

Mate, with the neck/shoulder seam problem the game has had for ages, and has recently become worse, it's probably a good thing it's 1st person at the moment - just imagine seeing that all the time on V if it was 3rd person. (At least on female V, I don't know if it also affects the male V.)

You do realize the character rig is done like that on purpose so that the body parts don't get in the way of the camera? It's not like that the animations are bad so they chose to make a first person game.

 

[IndifferentEmpathy]

Nope, like I said, GTA and RDR2 are third person view game, on which RockStar applied a first person view.

And? This is the way it should be done, you have to design TPP model for correct reflections.
Instead since CDPR made FPP model we now have:

• No reflections and no real mirrors
  • The PL cutscene where we see Meyers and even Johnnys reflection but not Vs was especially jarring.
• Shadow abomination, they even made TPP and FPP shadow models to be rendered simultaneously to compensate for this in some patch
• Seams around character neck, visible in FPP / on car / photo mode
• "Kiroshi hack" hiding your characters head in cameras
• And obviously no optional TPP mode is possible

FPP only mode is not worth for all of this shortcomings, especially since technically it is possible to do FPP with TPP model, CDPR simply lacked technical competence to do this properly. Good thing Unreal Engine has built-in support for this so hopefully it won't be an issue anymore for future titles.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

And? This is the way it should be done, you have to design TPP model for correct reflections.

I don't talk about what could be done... Just about the fact that in GTA or RDR2, it's not well done. If you play in third person view, it's (very) well done and fine. But if you play in first person view, the game is a mix between first person gameplay (which is not very good in my opinion, I never manage to play more than few minutes while I always prefer FPP... or just for looting in houses) and third person view cinematics. It end to be a mess, like Bethesda games are

So again, no GTA and RDR2 don't mix both view well. Both are third person view games, with just an average first person view to try to please everyone... And it's always like that. There is one view which is well done, the other one is generally average, at best.

 

[R001c]

I'm not anti-third person but I like to immerse myself in a game and play the role. The system that does this for me, whether it's a computer game, an RPG or even Lego is immaterial-you work with what works and learn to avoid the edges where things don't. I like to climb in and live it.
When I was younger I used to play with toys with my eyeball half a nanometre off the floor. Strangely, Wiki credits the Greeks with the invention of forced perspective and not children everywhere?

I've been a rabid fanboy of this game since it was released. There are reasons for that. I saw the same release everyone else. I was as annoyed as anyone else about it but I also saw what they got right. One thing they got right, was that the environment was designed to be climbed into from the ground up. This breathes more life into the characters and makes the emotional aspect of the plot much more real. Playing PL really brought this home. my ending brought me a strange mix of emotions. A very cathartic experience (in the original sense of the word). I'm pretty sure that the whole experience would be diminished if it was in third person and I would not have felt as much connection to the characters because I was less emotionally involved.
Even something as simple as a drive-by shooting of a few Maelstrom goons is infinitely more satisfying in first person where you, pull up, wind the window down, draw your weapon, drop 'em all and drive away before anyone knows what hit them works way better in first person and is much richer than the experience in third person which, by comparison, feels more like an arcade game.

Third person is very traditional for a CPRG because its not unlike a pencil and paper RPG if you had a DM who was arts and crafty and you could afford the miniatures, paints etc. I get that but it is more like the Greek gods point of view. You are remote. More analytically rather than emotionally involved. Those Greek gods used to get awfully bored of that and sneak down to earth to experience everything first person. Of course they would scurry back every time because that third person view is, innately, more powerful but I want to play a human not a god.

That said, I can be as vain as the next person about my characters. I do get that people want to see their characters but, for me, the loss of third person is outweighed by the gains of such a good first person system. So I vent my vanity on photo mode which I really wish was more sophisticated and allowed me to place and pose my character. I'll defend CDPR's right to add silly poses to the death if need be but I would much rather capture what's going on in a more natural sense. A better photo mode would allow people to tell stories about and show off their character. I know that some might abuse that somewhat but that's what moderators are for.

 

[DerHoss]

Honestly, I don't care much if a rpg is first or third person.
TW3 is third and is a great game.
CP is first and is a great game.

If I can chose I'll probably take first...unless its melee heavy. The third person view offers an acceptable replacement for the lack of peripheral vison, at least up close, thats good for melee combat. For shooting first person is better.
I personaly dont care if I can see my character, I know who I am.

But one thing thats worth reiterating: You can make great games in first or in third person, but not both at the same time. At least one perspective will alway be bad. And yeah, I know, Bethesda has been doing that for ages, and Bethesdas third person looks so bad, the animation look so fake, and at the same time the proportions look so bad in first person, all the interiors are too big (they need place for the camera behind you). GTA/RDR looks okay in third, but their first person sucks, and there's areason they stick to outside cells 99% of the time(they need place for the camera behind you).
In fact even in TW3 the interior cells are ridiculously big, but since you're in third person all the time you mostly never notice how that the hallway in that small castle has the dimensions of a train tunnel.

Sure you can make a first person game with 3rd person cutscenes, but then it has to be actually cutscenes. One of the coolest features of Cyberpunk, in regard to storytelling, is the fact that the game has no cutscenes. The game never cuts, you always stay in charcacter. During 90% of the dialogs you can just turn around and walk away at any time. I regards to immersion thats pure gold.

 

[hoagieland]

No. FPP's effect on personal narrative and drama cannot be overstated. It'd have been a very different experience if it were third person. It sounds like you just want to play the latest and greatest shooter/looters. That's fine. It's not Cybeprunk.

 

[-Nailes-]

Melee games in 3rd person are usually okay, I played the Mount and Blade games and Conan Exiles in 3rd person for example. But I would play the in 1st if I could. Kingdom Come Deliverance did a great job with its 1st person combat(wish the cutscenes were like CP2077). I played Witcher 3, its a good game but I just couldnt get into it. Its probably because W3 is an RPG while the other 3rd person games are more combat/adventure oriented.

If you enjoy games in 3rd person, then thats fine, have fun. I'm okay with the option existing for those who like it. But its not for me. I would like to continue to play in first person in Orion.
The last decade has seen a lot of 3rd person adventure games and a lot of people got used to those. While I can still play W3, I cannot play a shooting game(whether its an RPG or just an FPS) in 3rd person. It doesnt feel immersive at all to be a bystander who watched things unfold from a tribune above the character.

Seeing things through the eyes of the character will always be a far batter experience to me. Cyberpunk does a great job in this regard. The way that the world towers around you, I cant imagine that working when I'm a drone hanging above V. Not to mention that seeing things through V's eyes actually makes me care way more about my character and the people around me, like Jackie. Because I'm V and not a puppetmaster who watches from above.

And then there is the fact that 3rd person shooting games make me feel like I'm cheesing the game. And I'll show you what I mean,
Screenshot from Fallout 4,

There is nothing more ridiculous to me, than being able to look over or past a wall by using the 3rd person camera. Its like a drone that flies around and tells the character what the enemies are doing. It became especially irritating when I was invited to play PUBG(Player Unknown Battlegrounds, a battle royale) with friends. I was playing first person and everyone else was playing 3rd, while abusing the 3rd camera to look around corners. Up to the point that I switched and abused it myself. I just had to stop playing.
I stopped using the minimap in Cyberpunk long ago, in case you were wondering. Why would I know where everyone is? Dont they have even basic ICE, how would a V with minimal netrunner skills know where they are?

As for clothing, I go to the appartment regularly and change clothes. Because who wears the same clothes for a week? It doesnt matter to me that I can only see them in Photomode or a mirror. Its not like you can see yourself irl, unless you get infront of a mirror, anyways. I enjoy the clothing in game and it seems that this game attracts many like me, virtual photography in this game and community is bigger than in any other game. Or as someone here noted; 'why are 90% of mods poses and clothing?', thats because people love the appearance options, even if they dont have a 3PP option.
The quality of the graphics are what decides people's love for VP here, not the (lack of a)3rd person option.

PS, I bet most of you play(ed) archers and assassins in Skyrim. Stop, play a mage. Destruction if you want or do something like Illusionist-conjurer. So much fun, you are missing out. Playing a mage in Skyrim in 1st person works great. And a majority of my mods were armours and dresses.

 

[Nixilos]

I enjoyed Cyberpunk in first person, it did change the experience and make it more immersive for me. What I do not enjoy is that they cheaped out on some of the first person animations anyway, despite theoretically already saving a massive amount of work by not needing to do third person animations as well. Sleeves are always rolled up and sometimes don't accurately represent what you are wearing. Finisher animations are few, awkward and a bit clunky. Cyberarm customization and gun customization should have been a thing since they are what you actually see while playing the game.

It's orders of magnitude better than bethesda animations typically are as is, but it deserved a bit more love and attention even still.

 

[Akrap]

Gotta admit, I was a bit sceptical about 1st person perspective before Cyberpunk 2077 first came out but now, I can't imagine it being any other way. I think CDPR did a great job immersing the player in the cyberpunk world.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

What I do not enjoy is that they cheaped out on some of the first person animations anyway, despite theoretically already saving a massive amount of work by not needing to do third person animations as well.

Don't forget it's their very first attempt for a first person view. They never did it before and have to addapt their own Engine to achieve it.
Many compare Cyberpunk to games and studios which have released many games and so, had "time" to improve their first person perspective. Beside the time they "saved" to make the game in first person (even if Reds already said first person was more time consuming^^), they used it to create an experience with as less cuts as possible.

It's orders of magnitude better than bethesda animations typically are as is, but it deserved a bit more love and attention even still.

Then, more than "gameplay", Cyberpunk did an outstanding job for cutscenes. They're incredibly well done.
I fall few days ago on this video. I liked Starfield (+500hrs in yet), but well... you can see how CDPR is on another level... They just don't play in the same category
Same situation, same perspective... (I love the "Cyberpunk, hated by everyone"^^).

 

[Nixilos]

Snip

I see, I assume there would still be more animation work specifically in doing third person due to variety and needing it to be able to blend in with the hyper realistic scenes. What they have doesn't seem bad like they were struggling with it rather that it just didn't get enough time and revision to look it's best. Armchair gamedev commentary I know.

It's still one of my favorite games even if I do ultimately think I'll go back to 1.6 after my current playthrough. The push towards finishers as a dominant mechanic in melee can be a bit ugly to watch when things aren't 'just so' ya know? I'm not sure how I feel about them from a gameplay perspective either but that's besides the point. I wasn't a fan of them before either but they weren't a main focus of that part of the game like they are now. Up to me to not mash the f key I guess I'll quit relying on them eventually.

The cinematic scenes are impressive for sure and I don't claim to be able to do a better job on the gameplay ones myself otherwise I'd do it. I don't even want a third person for it, occasionally on the bikes is enough for me actually, but some of this stuff looks a little rough. Like what you would expect if a modder hacked it in. It's just a shame this is the final draft here and there.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

The cinematic scenes are impressive for sure and I don't claim to be able to do a better job on the gameplay ones myself otherwise I'd do it. I don't even want a third person for it, occasionally on the bikes is enough for me actually, but some of this stuff looks a little rough. Like what you would expect if a modder hacked it in. It's just a shame this is the final draft here and there.

Like I said, it's their first try
I'm pretty confident that even if their next Cyberpunk game is still "first person" only, they will add a proper body for V, to be able to include V's reflexions and also improve the shadow quality. Not sure why CDPR didn't, maybe they struggled to add it or struggled with performances. But even Starfield which in theory have a proper third person body, in first person your character don't have reflexion (mirrors and reflectives surfaces are enough blurry to not reflect anything^^) and don't cast shadow.
It's like driving, many point out GTA, but Rockstar had decades to improve driving in their games, while CDPR never did it before.

So I think CDPR will improve it in their next game (maybe UE5 will help, we'll see), you simply can't do everything perfect in your first try

Side note : not a fan of finishers too... Never really used them during my whole 2.0 playthrough (katana/sandevistan), but feel great even without