Character Customization!

[chriswebb2020.736]

A karma system can work well in many games - but I think having an explicit morality system resulting in visible changes is a bit old fashioned. I'd rather rely on good character creation and development than incentives. If you want to make your character pretty, then choose a high charisma and personal grooming. If you want to wear your Omar-scar, even better. If you want to pay for plastic surgery, then pay for it. Let's not have the 'catch the robber' missions to assist vanity projects. The individualistic future of cyberpunk does not, to me anyway, fit a system which gives incentives to play nice.

In a sense, if you can pay money to get a new cyber arm, it''ll be easy enough to buy a new face, or big butt cheeks, or a pop up arm cannon, or whatever you want.

Karma and other morality based systems don't really have a place in Cyberpunk, (the game, not the genre,) in my opinion.

They insinuate that there is a good choice and an evil choice. That should be up to the players personality and perspective and not the games developers. Not only that, but in games like Mass Effect 2 you actually ended up being punished for your choices. Specifically your allies being killed off, thus making your final fight harder. Screw that.

Far better to have a 'Reputation', as has already been mentioned. It worked really well in 2020, so I think it should form part of the backbone of the Social Interaction systems in 2077.

 

[crrpt_dntt]

Far better to have a 'Reputation', as has already been mentioned. It worked really well in 2020, so I think it should form part of the backbone of the Social Interaction systems in 2077.

Do you or anyone by chance remember a thread where this reputation of the PnP and a possible way to carry it into the game have been discussed?

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Do you or anyone by chance remember a thread where this reputation of the PnP and a possible way to carry it into the game have been discussed?

It's been discussed several times. However, I can't remember the name of the threads and the search tool is in the same calibre as chocolate tea-pots and glass hammers.

I would say that starting a new one would be fine under the circumstances.

 

[wisdom000]

Karma and other morality based systems don't really have a place in Cyberpunk, (the game, not the genre,) in my opinion.

They insinuate that there is a good choice and an evil choice. That should be up to the players personality and perspective and not the games developers. Not only that, but in games like Mass Effect 2 you actually ended up being punished for your choices. Specifically your allies being killed off, thus making your final fight harder. Screw that.

Far better to have a 'Reputation', as has already been mentioned. It worked really well in 2020, so I think it should form part of the backbone of the Social Interaction systems in 2077.

This.

However, you have an EMPATHY score, which is a representation of your ability to relate to other human beings and them to relate to you, thats as close as you are going to get to any kind of morality system.

Beyond that your morality, your ethics, are up to you to decide.

 

[kyberpunkki]

A karma system can work well in many games - but I think having an explicit morality system resulting in visible changes is a bit old fashioned. I'd rather rely on good character creation and development than incentives. If you want to make your character pretty, then choose a high charisma and personal grooming. If you want to wear your Omar-scar, even better. If you want to pay for plastic surgery, then pay for it. Let's not have the 'catch the robber' missions to assist vanity projects. The individualistic future of cyberpunk does not, to me anyway, fit a system which gives incentives to play nice.

In a sense, if you can pay money to get a new cyber arm, it''ll be easy enough to buy a new face, or big butt cheeks, or a pop up arm cannon, or whatever you want.

Far better to have a 'Reputation', as has already been mentioned. It worked really well in 2020, so I think it should form part of the backbone of the Social Interaction systems in 2077.

This.

However, you have an EMPATHY score, which is a representation of your ability to relate to other human beings and them to relate to you, thats as close as you are going to get to any kind of morality system.

Beyond that your morality, your ethics, are up to you to decide.

That's exactly what I've thought! Thanks chombattas!

 

[Suhiira]

Far better to have a 'Reputation', as has already been mentioned. It worked really well in 2020, so I think it should form part of the backbone of the Social Interaction systems in 2077.

100% agree.
Cyberpunk really is more about your rep then your actual actions.

Take for instance Robert E. Lee (American Civil War).
Prior to the war he was known as "Granny Lee".
During the war he won the respect of both sides.
And if you look at his battle history he was actually a rather poor commander in offensive situations, GREAT in the defense tho.

 

[braindancer12]

Karma and other morality based systems don't really have a place in Cyberpunk, (the game, not the genre,) in my opinion.

They insinuate that there is a good choice and an evil choice. That should be up to the players personality and perspective and not the games developers. Not only that, but in games like Mass Effect 2 you actually ended up being punished for your choices. Specifically your allies being killed off, thus making your final fight harder. Screw that.

Far better to have a 'Reputation', as has already been mentioned. It worked really well in 2020, so I think it should form part of the backbone of the Social Interaction systems in 2077.

thats how it should be

 

[wisdom000]

100% agree.
Cyberpunk really is more about your rep then your actual actions.

To an extent, in that your actions, whether real, or percieved, will be the determination of your rep...


Showing off is a BIG thing among young edgerunners....

 

[Suhiira]

Showing off is a BIG thing among young edgerunners....

Showing off is a BIG thing among young people period.
One of the reasons we older folks tend to look either amused or annoyed when dealing with a teen.

 

[wisdom000]

Showing off is a BIG thing among young people period.
One of the reasons we older folks tend to look either amused or annoyed when dealing with a teen.

They make a great distraction though...

 

[thewarsend]

Karma and other morality based systems don't really have a place in Cyberpunk, (the game, not the genre,) in my opinion.

They insinuate that there is a good choice and an evil choice. That should be up to the players personality and perspective and not the games developers. Not only that, but in games like Mass Effect 2 you actually ended up being punished for your choices. Specifically your allies being killed off, thus making your final fight harder. Screw that.

Far better to have a 'Reputation', as has already been mentioned. It worked really well in 2020, so I think it should form part of the backbone of the Social Interaction systems in 2077.

In my opinion, in a way CP77 can have both.. Reputation system worked well on 2020 and a similar reputation system was on the Fallout New Vegas.. (Similar but not quite there..) A karma system can be there to, not to punish you, but to give you different dialogue options (more cynical, much more hateful) and to determine the way NPC's approach you.. I mean, it would be strange if they approached you and said "please help us" if you are a bastard who killed like 500 innocent people until reached there, instead they can say "help us or we will rat you out you asshole". (its a terrible example, but you see what i mean) A karma system can work many different ways..

 

[Maelcom404]

In my opinion, in a way CP77 can have both.. Reputation system worked well on 2020 and a similar reputation system was on the Fallout New Vegas.. (Similar but not quite there..) A karma system can be there to, not to punish you, but to give you different dialogue options (more cynical, much more hateful) and to determine the way NPC's approach you.. I mean, it would be strange if they approached you and said "please help us" if you are a bastard who killed like 500 innocent people until reached there, instead they can say "help us or we will rat you out you asshole". (its a terrible example, but you see what i mean) A karma system can work many different ways..

Yes, the Fallout's karma works somewhat like the one in Cyberpunk 2020, they need to find the right way to do it properly.

 

[wisdom000]

In my opinion, in a way CP77 can have both.. Reputation system worked well on 2020 and a similar reputation system was on the Fallout New Vegas.. (Similar but not quite there..) A karma system can be there to, not to punish you, but to give you different dialogue options (more cynical, much more hateful) and to determine the way NPC's approach you.. I mean, it would be strange if they approached you and said "please help us" if you are a bastard who killed like 500 innocent people until reached there, instead they can say "help us or we will rat you out you asshole". (its a terrible example, but you see what i mean) A karma system can work many different ways..

Wouldn't that still be just reputation?

The problem with Fallouts karma system is it didn't differentiate between what people saw you do, and what you did when no one was looking... it was inherently flawed in that regard. It was measured by your deeds, seen and unseen, but it was treated as reputation...

 

[thewarsend]

Wouldn't that still be just reputation?

The problem with Fallouts karma system is it didn't differentiate between what people saw you do, and what you did when no one was looking... it was inherently flawed in that regard. It was measured by your deeds, seen and unseen, but it was treated as reputation...

What i was talking about was not exactly the karma system as we had in Fallout games.. (So, no light side-dark side crap) I used karma example, because only that comes any close to what i have in mind.. (and for the lack of a better name, ) Reputation system is usually faction based, but it is not enough to determine if the people in that faction will hate your guts or not.. (How much they will help you, will they betray you or not and so on) We need a system that will go along with that, determine how people (not only the people attached to a faction, but all people) will perceive you and how they will approach to you.. Night City is a crowded place with lots of cameras around, it is not impossible that people will talk about your actions, as long as someone, somehow sees what you did and lived to talk about it.. (sometimes you would want them to live and talk about how awesome you were as long as they cannot report you to the police) Lets say you are in a faction and you have a good rep with them, if you are a known lying, cheating, backstabbing bastard, people should act on it..

If you are saying "even if some people know the things i did, how would people know if I'm a lying, cheating, backstabbing bastard, how does the word gets around?", then i would say, how do they know if you are on any faction or if you have any rep with the said faction in the first place? (Or rather how does the enemy faction or even people who are in the faction you have rep with would know you are in same faction?) Thats how the rep system works, just a game mechanic..

 

[wisdom000]

if people are talking about you, and their interactions are based on what they have heard or seen.... that is reputation...

 

[thewarsend]

if people are talking about you, and their interactions are based on what they have heard or seen.... that is reputation...

Yes and I'm talking about separating the faction reputation and how people in that faction and everyone else treats you based on your previous non faction based actions..

Keeping the records of what you did for your faction and what you did in general..

Let me simplify it, lets say you are a cop, and lets say you are a good cop, you booked enough people, you saved another cops life and so on.. Thats your cop rep, that one keeps the record of your standing with cop faction.. But before you became a cop, you used to smuggle drugs.. Lets say some guy who knew you back then talked about.. (Hey, i hear Wisdom is a cop now, but before he became a doughnut lover, he used to smuggle drugs for Ricky..) Now, it is just a rumor and nobody has a proof that ever happened.. (It is more like "word on the street", they have only his word to go on but many still would believe it..) That other "karma like" system keeps that information.. That information not related to cop faction still effect how people in that faction perceives you..

And yes, it is still some sort of rep system, but not a faction based rep system.. That covers all factions..

 

[wisdom000]

The only one talking faction is you though, unless I missed something...

Now that being said, I am nto opposed to having different reputation scores.... which is how I do it with Interlock Unlimited...

Where you have different reputation scores based on profession and personal life...

For example, HP Lovecraft was a brilliant writer, professionally his rep is high.... but he was also a dirt bag racist, personally his rep is in the negatives

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I think I can simplify this one:

Reputation should be based on what people see and think you do.

Karma should be based on what you actually do.

 

[Suhiira]

Reputation should be based on what people see and think you do.

With emphasis on "think".
Nothing spreads faster and is more likely to be believed then a negative rumor.

 

[Decatonkeil]

With emphasis on "think".
Nothing spreads faster and is more likely to be believed then a negative rumor.

Medias spreading a bad rep for you... that would be cool. It could tie in with things like you being called by a "nickname". Maybe you have a rep that makes people call you "a murderer", "a terrorist", "a traitor"...
Reputation could also be granted by things like "ragequitting" a mission, then NPCs would call you a "coward".