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InkognitoXI · Sep 30, 2022

Barracuda88 said:
But right now you run Blaze literally for Eist-Jutta and nothing else in the deck. There is no special synergy between Blaze and warriors.

True, but Eist + Blaze of Glory is worth a lot of points and without Blaze of Glory you need to completely replace Eist with some other Gold, while Patricidal Fury is basically just a 3 point buff to Sove, which is good regardless and only slightly better with Patricidal Fury (unless you run Ulula, but in that case you need more time for setup). In fact Ulula has anti-synergy with Patricidal Fury in that she will kill the Sirens if one does not play Patricidal Fury in advance, which is also giving up on more flexibility.
The difference is that with Patricidal Fury you lose an entire power play, while giving up on that leader ability costs you very little.

Maybe the revealed change to Patricidal Fury to go to 12 power will buff it enough so that it is still worth it, but I would say Blaze of Glory is still better.

Barracuda88 said:
And in fact, you can actually play Eist with Patricide, which is probably how he was designed to be played, because the devs as usual did not foresee the cheese.

I am not sure about that, given that the Devotion wording almost specifically includes the way he gets used.

Edit: Who knows, maybe I needlessly dismiss more engine focused Bloodthirst builds that would run Patricidal Fury, however right now I do not think there are enough payoffs for that to be worth it.

EduFerraz · Sep 30, 2022

In fact you can play eist with PF precisely because The bloodthirst.

Eist Will buy and discard a card with bloodthirst 3, wich alows to discard sove or ulula and use theyr order.

Nevertheless, i kind of agree that warriors are better with blaze of glory

InkognitoXI · Sep 30, 2022

EduFerraz said:
In fact you can play eist with PF precisely because The bloodthirst.

Eist Will buy and discard a card with bloodthirst 3, wich alows to discard sove or ulula and use theyr order.

Nevertheless, i kind of agree that warriors are better with blaze of glory

True, but then you still need something to trigger the second counter on Eist, given that being stuck to trigger Eist only once is giving up on a lot of value.

Barracuda88 · Oct 1, 2022

InkognitoXI said:
True, but then you still need something to trigger the second counter on Eist, given that being stuck to trigger Eist only once is giving up on a lot of value.

You can discard Jutta or that bricked bear. From what i've seen, it's the people playing blaze eist who never cash on his second charge.

InkognitoXI · Oct 1, 2022

Barracuda88 said:
You can discard Jutta or that bricked bear. From what i've seen, it's the people playing blaze eist who never cash on his second charge.

But if you fullfill the Bloodthirst 3 condition you will use both counters.
If you use Patricidal Fury you need to use the Bloodthirst discard on a Jutta (which you need to draw, which is also a massive decrease in consistency, given that drawing/tutoring Eist and having to mulligan Jutta is far more consistent than needing Jutta in hand and access to Eist, which is the same dilemma MO has with Caranthir and Koshchey) and are then left with having to find another way of triggering the second charge, like using a discard on something that is not floating from it (like Mork).

Edit: Come to think of it there is one reason that one could actually try Patricidal Fury with Warriors.
Namely that Champion's Charge is a 7p card that can do something Warriors struggle with, which is dealing with large targets and which is why Warriors often run Morkvarg: Heart of Terror.

rrc · Oct 1, 2022

How is the 8 for 5 bear a brick? It is used even even now (I hadn't played in 2 or 3 months, but when I was, it was still played/playable). There is no brick at all. SK wouldn't need to play any card which they would otherwise not play. Even otherwise, 11 for 11 Immune card itself is good. There is no risk of summoning a card to the opposite side and it getting boosted or purified. It is on Zeal-Order and hence, the summoning can be done the next turn when it is easy and surely getting killed. 27 points on an Immune body is just too much. At least in my opinion. I am not sure about the recent/current powercreep level, but untouchable 27 points on an Immune Body is borderline illegal.

InkognitoXI said:
You have to run a 5p card that is purely a brick.
That is 1 provision more than the bare minimum on a card that you plan on never playing itself (similar to how Eist + Jutta or Rience + Rico cost more than the provision of the unit you plan on playing). Sinking an upgrade provision into a card you never want to play is the same as spending the provision on the card that demands this to be the case.

Fair point on the Ulala + Patricidal Fury part, however running Patricidal Fury over Blaze of Glory means no Eist, which in itself is a hefty price to pay.

quintivarium · Oct 1, 2022

Even without immunity, Sove is a very strong card — it could easily play for 17 to 19 on deploy (which is excellent tempo), and would trade up by 5 points to any lock if the order were held.

With an 11 point body, it shouldn’t need immunity to protect it from removal — unless the developer’s really feel tall removal (e.g. Heatwave) would keep the card from being useful. But if that’s the case, I would suggest the developers consider why tall removal is so ubiquitous.

Especially with Sigrdrifa’s Rite, this card will have to be endured twice. Since taking two cards like Igni or Curse of Corruption is insane deck-building, and enduring a 23-27 point card even once is difficult, assuming warriors will be a meta level archetype (and I am virtually certain it will be as it is already competitive), virtually all decks will be forced to carry both untargeted tall removal and graveyard hate. Not only does this horribly narrow deck building, universal graveyard hate renders any deck that depends upon a graveyard unattractive. This destroys many monster decks as well as other graveyard based SK decks.

Finally, an uninteractive, powerful immune card contributes nothing to the tactics of the game. (Without tactics, one ought to simply play Bearly Balanced — a mode that captures the strategic essence a Gwent AND is actually balanced. But then the game loses the freshness that keeps it interesting.)

I would beg the developers to remove the immunity status before this card drops. Up until now, I was excited about a patch that revitalized the game without repowering it, and a patch that helped bring bronze power levels closer to gold (decreasing the bad draw RNG). This one card destroys that. And, I fear, it will create a SK Warrior dominated meta that will be both boring and increase the already existing SK hate.

InkognitoXI · Oct 1, 2022

rrc said:
How is the 8 for 5 bear a brick? It is used even even now (I hadn't played in 2 or 3 months, but when I was, it was still played/playable). There is no brick at all. SK wouldn't need to play any card which they would otherwise not play. Even otherwise, 11 for 11 Immune card itself is good. There is no risk of summoning a card to the opposite side and it getting boosted or purified. It is on Zeal-Order and hence, the summoning can be done the next turn when it is easy and surely getting killed. 27 points on an Immune body is just too much. At least in my opinion. I am not sure about the recent/current powercreep level, but untouchable 27 points on an Immune Body is borderline illegal.

If you need it in your deck to grab it with Sove then it is a brick, similarly to how Jutta is a brick with Eist in Blaze of Glory decks.
If you never want to see it in your hand because it has to be in the deck it is a brick.

Post automatically merged: Oct 1, 2022

quintivarium said:
[...] I would beg the developers to remove the immunity status before this card drops. Up until now, I was excited about a patch that revitalized the game without repowering it, and a patch that helped bring bronze power levels closer to gold (decreasing the bad draw RNG). This one card destroys that. And, I fear, it will create a SK Warrior dominated meta that will be both boring and increase the already existing SK hate.

Without immunity it is unplayable.
It would trade down by something like 8-10 points against any kind of tall punish.
Right now Igni trades up 10 points against it, while Curse of Corruption would trade up up to 8 points.

Since you realistically have to sink 6-8 damage to kill the Bear you grab with Sove you would lose Sove and those 6-8 damage trading with tall punish, which would under no circumstances be worth the risk. Especially if the card is usually on the powerlevel of a 20 for 12, which is definitely overtuned, but not worth the risk of practically losing the round to a single tall punish.

Furthermore Sove is the only boosted unit Warriors would run, so it would also open up reset value, which is something they otherwise avoid (ignoring Yrden, which still works).

If there are any nerfs it should be something like making the Immunity conditional on deploy to prevent Sigdrifa's Rite from playing it at full value and tunning it down by a few points or provisions. This would also deal with the issue that Blaze of Glory might cut Jutta to throw Sove for Eist.

DolphPingus · Oct 1, 2022

Sigi and Sove both hotfixed after 1 week.

ThorR_RPG · Oct 1, 2022

quintivarium · Oct 2, 2022

InkognitoXI said:
Without immunity it [Sove] is unplayable.
It would trade down by something like 8-10 points against any kind of tall punish.
Right now Igni trades up 10 points against it, while Curse of Corruption would trade up up to 8 points.

Since you realistically have to sink 6-8 damage to kill the Bear you grab with Sove you would lose Sove and those 6-8 damage trading with tall punish, which would under no circumstances be worth the risk. Especially if the card is usually on the powerlevel of a 20 for 12, which is definitely overtuned, but not worth the risk of practically losing the round to a single tall punish.

Furthermore Sove is the only boosted unit Warriors would run, so it would also open up reset value, which is something they otherwise avoid (ignoring Yrden, which still works).

If there are any nerfs it should be something like making the Immunity conditional on deploy to prevent Sigdrifa's Rite from playing it at full value and tunning it down by a few points or provisions. This would also deal with the issue that Blaze of Glory might cut Jutta to throw Sove for Eist.

I think this is greatly exaggerated. Without immunity, Sove would not be one the the best cards ever introduced into Gwent, but it would still be good. Much like cards like Gord, Regis, She who Knows, and numerous others, it is vulnerable to tall punish. But it can be played to mitigate this risk — as final say, as a high tempo card to allow harder pushes in early rounds, etc.

And Sove doesn’t generally trade down that significantly to tall punish — you are ignoring that it likely provides significant damage to the beast it summons— very rarely will you sink anywhere near eight points into killing that beast.

And finally, there is nothing (other than the Warrior tag) to force Sove to be played in a warrior deck — it has more a bloodthirst like focus. Warriors can support this, but are not necessary for it.

Meanwhile, immunity is a status that should never be common or given loosely. It is inherently uninteractive and virtually indefensible. It does not make for interesting play and is easily imbalanced.

Except for Saskia: Commander (which I consider a very poorly designed card), and Sir Scratch-a-Lot (where immunity is generally temporary), immunity is not used in potentially game winning cards. Rather it is used appropriately in relatively weak cards where it serves a very specific purpose. Sove does not qualify as such a card.

InkognitoXI · Oct 2, 2022

quintivarium said:
I think this is greatly exaggerated. Without immunity, Sove would not be one the the best cards ever introduced into Gwent, but it would still be good. Much like cards like Gord, Regis, She who Knows, and numerous others, it is vulnerable to tall punish. But it can be played to mitigate this risk — as final say, as a high tempo card to allow harder pushes in early rounds, etc.

And Sove doesn’t generally trade down that significantly to tall punish — you are ignoring that it likely provides significant damage to the beast it summons— very rarely will you sink anywhere near eight points into killing that beast.

And finally, there is nothing (other than the Warrior tag) to force Sove to be played in a warrior deck — it has more a bloodthirst like focus. Warriors can support this, but are not necessary for it.
[...]

I never claimed Warriors are necessary. Also assuming that you will have something like Bloodthirst 6 or 8 is pushing it quite a bit.
The difference to cards such as Gord, Regis, Dusk Aspect etc is that they do not require massive setup during the turn in which they will be played, as this card would demand.

quintivarium said:
[...]

Meanwhile, immunity is a status that should never be common or given loosely. It is inherently uninteractive and virtually indefensible. It does not make for interesting play and is easily imbalanced.

[...]

To be fair Curse of Corruption and Igni can still remove Sove and trade very well against him.

Sove would work without Immunity, but only if he would distribute those points on different bodies, like spawning a token with the amount of boosts he would get.

ThorgerWolff · Oct 2, 2022

Wild Hunt for MO, hmmm technically WH are Elves so why are they part of Monsters? Also Aen Elle Artistocrat is another buff for NG.