Ciri as the 'Next Geralt': Yay or Nay?

[Willowhugger]

Ciri isn't a new protagonist, and it wouldn't be a different world, though. She has quite a lot of history behind her, and she's not as immediately appealing as Geralt is from a personality perspective.

This is extremely debatable.

Mass Effect 3 didn't really switch because of the appeal of a new, fresh universe, at least I don't think so. It switched because they wrote themselves into an inescapable corner and basically ruined their entire setting beyond repair, but instead of EA letting the franchise rest, the need to milk it is still there. So I'm not interested in that approach. Again, it can make sense commercially, but if CDPR did that the franchise would be dead to me. I play The Witcher because of generally strong writing, which I feel came to a screeching halt whenever CDPR did something Ciri related. An entire sequel with all of the necessary writing stretches to make even a little bit plausible in the first place based around her holds no appeal to me, and I feel like it doesn't hold a lot of appeal to other long-time fans either.

Whereas I thought the Ciri portions of the game were the best part and wanted many-many more. I've also been here since the Witcher 1.

My general take on the subject is, "If you don't want to play a Ciri game. That's your business. Don't speak for those who do and are every bit, if not more so, fans of the series than you."

I love Solid Snake too but this is basically saying Revengeance shouldn't exist because, "Raiden shouldn't be the protagonist even if he's a badass cyborg ninja."

 

[Tomice158]

We need no amnesia. The epilogue says nothing more than she "travels to Nilfgaard to be crowned. She has the qualities to be a good ruler."
She is never actually crowned in the epilogue.

Regarding Willow's suggestions - don't feel offended, mate, but some of them feel forced ( I personally don't think the last Crone has any significant potential as villain, as example). You're also drifting off a bit in the obsessed, preaching direction (even if I share your preference for Ciri as future protagonist)



But then again, noone will take any fanfiction here seriously. Immersion lives from a certain untouchability of the authors, of the knowledge that we - the audience - could never achieve what they do. A new story that is presented with all the special effects of an AAA game and the maturity of a long development will feel completely different, even if the concept started as an idea not unlike those from Willow.
If the devs are convinced of presenting Ciri as believable and interesting protagonist, I'm sure they can pull it off and convince many current critics.

This brings me to the main point - I don't in any way think the game setting is dead and couldn't give birth to another great story. Quite the contrary, I consider it to be in full blossom. Especially from a non-bookreader perspective: Yen and Ciri have just been introduced in their POV. And considering the increase in sales from W2 to W3, most of the current players don't even know the previous games (forum users are different, of course). I believe Ciri would have far more support among newcomers than with people who read 7 books about her and Geralt.



What they really shouldn't pull off, however, is another Dragon Age 2. Any sequel to such a great game should be aimed to meet the same quality standards. If they turn up with some cheap-looking, budget-restricted, repetitive crap, they can keep it.
If they continue to aim as high as they did in W3, I would be the happiest customer ever. That doesn't exclude the possibility of further content with the same engine (an post-epilogue expansion), but it should keep their quality standards.

 

[Zbotz]

Mass Effect 3 didn't really switch because of the appeal of a new, fresh universe, at least I don't think so. It switched because they wrote themselves into an inescapable corner and basically ruined their entire setting beyond repair,.

Yes they did, but surely you're not suggesting they did the same thing in Witcher 3.

 

[Willowhugger]

Regarding Willow's suggestions - don't feel offended, mate, but some of them feel forced ( I personally don't think the last Crone has any significant potential as villain, as example). You're also drifting off a bit in the obsessed direction

(even if I share your preference for Ciri as future protagonist)

Eh, you can say a lot of those suggestions are crap because they are. :thumbdown::

I was just trying to illustrate: "You can come up with plenty of story material and CDPR is probably much better at this than I am."



Well-developed three dimensional characters create story by their existence.

 

[FieryPhoenix7]

What they really shouldn't pull off, however, is another Dragon Age 2. Any sequel to such a great game should be aimed to meet the same quality standards. If they turn up with some cheap-looking, budget-restricted, repetitive crap, they can keep it.
If they continue to aim as high as they did in W3, I would be the happiest customer ever. That doesn't exclude the possibility of further content with the same engine (an post-epilogue expansion), but it should keep their quality standards.

I wouldn't worry about CDPR pulling a Dragon Age 2. That game was made literally some ~11 months after BioWare was done with Origins, and we all know how that turned out.

If the devs have an idea for Ciri's future (as I'm sure they do), I'm positive they're smart enough to execute it in the most appropriate manner possible.

 

[Willowhugger]

I suggested in the thread for the Witcher 4 that we probably shouldn't be thinking about the next games being something like the Witcher 3 in that they're "the biggest RPG" ever but probably hoping sequels and spinoffs are more AOK-like. In a very real way, I think something more focused and tighter would be preferable to a sprawling super-epic like the Witcher 3.

40-60 hours versus 120-200 like the Witcher.

Given how overworked and pushed the Witcher 3 developers were, I'd also suggest they reuse assets.

With that kind of focus, you could also do smaller more intimate stories the fans want.

A Ciri game AND, perhaps, a Geralt in Kovir follow-up to the Witcher 3.

 

[Tomice158]

Regarding DLC and expansions, they have the luck of an excellent engine.
AFAIK, no other company pulled off something like Novigrad in an RPG before, especially without loading screens. Fallout 4 - the next game from the former kings of open world RPG's - looks way worse from a graphical/technical viewpoint.
They will be able to create DLC/expansions for 2-3 years until the engine looks outdated.

 

[FieryPhoenix7]

They have the luck of an excellent engine. AFAIK, no other company pulled off something like Novigrad in an RPG, especially without loading screens. And Fallout 4 - the next game from the former kings of open world RPG's - looks way worse from a graphical viewpoint.
They will be able to create DLC/expansions for 2-3 years until the engine looks outdated.

Don't quote me on this, but I seem to recall Todd Howard saying/implying that Fallout 4 won't have load screens.

 

[Willowhugger]

Regarding DLC and expansions, they have the luck of an excellent engine.
AFAIK, no other company pulled off something like Novigrad in an RPG before, especially without loading screens. Fallout 4 - the next game from the former kings of open world RPG's - looks way worse from a graphical/technical viewpoint.
They will be able to create DLC/expansions for 2-3 years until the engine looks outdated.

Personally, I'd be less interested in expansions than releasing games with the same engine. While they could go the Borderlands 2 route, they should also be willing to go the Far Cry 3: Blood Dragon and Assassins Creed route.

But yes, maybe the anti-Ciri crowd would be more comfortable with a smaller Ciri game about the size of Origins or AOK.

 

[FieryPhoenix7]

But yes, maybe the anti-Ciri crowd would be more comfortable with a smaller Ciri game about the size of Origins or AOK.

Seems that way, which is understandable. The Witcher 3 as it stands could use a Ciri expansion, though we already know that won't be happening.

 

[Willowhugger]

Seems that way, which is understandable. The Witcher 3 as it stands could use a Ciri expansion, though we already know that won't be happening.

Anything is possible.

 

[smilydude13]

This is extremely debatable.



Whereas I thought the Ciri portions of the game were the best part and wanted many-many more. I've also been here since the Witcher 1.

My general take on the subject is, "If you don't want to play a Ciri game. That's your business. Don't speak for those who do and are every bit, if not more so, fans of the series than you."

I love Solid Snake too but this is basically saying Revengeance shouldn't exist because, "Raiden shouldn't be the protagonist even if he's a badass cyborg ninja."

You can debate it all you like, it's subjective. Her character in TW3 comes across as over-idealized to me, bordering dangerously on Mary Sue territory. Whereas Geralt is much more appealing, loads of character flaws, a dry laconic wit that is almost immediately apparent, and it provides for interesting character interactions. Note that I meant to type "it doesn't hold a lot of appeal to a number of other long term fans either," I wasn't meaning to make a sweeping generalization. You're entitled to your opinion.

I also don't think Revengeance is a good example to compare this to. Metal Gear has never shied away from camp or the absurd, so Raiden in Revengeance fits right in, whereas The Witcher is a franchise that actively went out of its way avoid this overly idealized chosen one stuff that is so standard in the genre, specifically in the case of Ciri. It generally went out of its way to parody conventions and archetypes like that, to be honest, so this new messianic idealized Ciri feels out of place, and doesn't even bare much, if any, resemblance to Sapkowski's Ciri. Raiden at least has some depth to him beyond being the newly introduced chosen with almost no character development or significant/interesting flaws.

 

[vivaxardas2015]

I don't mind Ciri's smaller game set between the events in the books and TW3. She was doing something all this time, didn't she?

 

[Willowhugger]

I don't mind Ciri's smaller game set between the events in the books and TW3. She was doing something all this time, didn't she?

Kind of pointless playing a Witcher game somewhere other than the Continent isn't it?

 

[vivaxardas2015]

Kind of pointless playing a Witcher game somewhere other than the Continent isn't it?

Actually, they can include any place and time, the Continent included. She may have returned for a time while Geralt was with the Wild Hunt, for example, and nobody simply knew about it. She may be involved in a lot of things, and they do not need to be directly related to TW1-3, but simply expand the universe and our understanding of it.

 

[Willowhugger]

You can debate it all you like, it's subjective. Her character in TW3 comes across as over-idealized to me, bordering dangerously on Mary Sue territory. Whereas Geralt is much more appealing, loads of character flaws, a dry laconic wit that is almost immediately apparent, and it provides for interesting character interactions. Note that I meant to type "it doesn't hold a lot of appeal to a number of other long term fans either," I wasn't meaning to make a sweeping generalization. You're entitled to your opinion.

For me, Ciri is a character who is an interesting to contrast to Geralt while having the same fundamental core. She's a character who remains idealistic, friendly, and noble in a world which is absolute shit. She's also got a severely traumatized background so we understand this idealism is paper-thin. Ciri is just trying to put on a brave face for the absolutely horrible shit about the setting. So we have a character who wants to make the world a better place but is trapped in a world that doesn't want that.

It's a nice contrast to Geralt who has the same inclinations but less idealism.

I also don't think Revengeance is a good example to compare this to. Metal Gear has never shied away from camp or the absurd, so Raiden in Revengeance fits right in, whereas The Witcher is a franchise that actively went out of its way avoid this overly idealized chosen one stuff that is so standard in the genre, specifically in the case of Ciri. It generally went out of its way to parody conventions and archetypes like that, to be honest, so this new messianic idealized Ciri feels out of place, and doesn't even bare much, if any, resemblance to Sapkowski's Ciri. Raiden at least has some depth to him beyond being the newly introduced chosen with almost no character development or significant/interesting flaws.

I'm deeply against messanic Ciri in fact. I want to play Ciri who is a Witcher struggling to do the right thing in a Shittastic Low Fantasy world.

I don't want her reforming Nilfgaard or making peace through the power of friendship.

I want her trying to rescue Children from a Crone only to find out, no, she can't save them all.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

For me, Ciri is a character who is an interesting to contrast to Geralt while having the same fundamental core. She's a character who remains idealistic, friendly, and noble in a world which is absolute shit. She's also got a severely traumatized background so we understand this idealism is paper-thin. Ciri is just trying to put on a brave face for the absolutely horrible shit about the setting. So we have a character who wants to make the world a better place but is trapped in a world that doesn't want that.

It's a nice contrast to Geralt who has the same inclinations but less idealism..

I don't see any real idealism in her character. I'd say she's even less idealistic than Geralt, and that's a tough job to pull...

Not every character needs to be a video game character. Ciri is imo one of them.

 

[Willowhugger]

I don't see any real idealism in her character. I'd say she's even less idealistic than Geralt, and that's a tough job to pull...

In the books? Yes.

Seven years has made her firmly committed to doing good any way she can, though.

She's basically done a 180 from her time with the Rats.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Seven years has made her firmly committed to doing good any way she can, though.

I must have missed that part. I don't see her doing that in the game...


Anyway, I certainly don't need or want a game based on a butchered character. CDPR should stop butchering Sapkowski's work. Pretty much every change they made to the original material is worse than the original imho. TW3 is the farthest thing they should go into that direction. For more freedom they should do their own IP and create their own world and characters. Then we'll see what they're really capable of, when they can't rely anymore on the solid foundation of others. And it would finally be something fresh.

 

[smilydude13]

From the forums, many many more fans are for a sequel.



Are you Michael Bay? Must everything be bigger, badder, with more explosions? If not, then the next enemies can and should be something more personal.

Suggested possible enemies off the top of my head:

Philippa Eilhart

No, I'm not Michael Bay, but when you have a protagonist that is as absurdly overpowered as Ciri is, you need a legitimate threat.

Philippa Eilhart

Can't see a decent motive for her to be a direct antagonist, she's a manipulator, the most I could see her doing is trying to use Ciri as a puppet. Even then, I don't see a good ability for her to harm or directly confront someone who can travel between dimensions/worlds in an instant.

Emperor Emhyr (who would have faked his death in an assassination ending)

That would be stupid. He has no reason to do anything to her, his role as antagonist has long been concluded in the books, of his own accord, and furthermore in TW3. Again, running into the problem of him not being able to do anything to her. Also recycling antagonists leaves something to be desired.

Avallach

Maybe. Again lacking a motive, since it seems he has lost all desire to use Ciri for his intended purposes from the books.

The Last Crone

Hardly a valid enemy since she's basically confined to Velen, and is a total push over. 3 of them were no match for Ciri, 1 certainly wouldn't be. No real motive except wanting to eat her, either.

The Disciples of Vilgefortz attempting to resurrect their master

Reeks too much of fanfiction. Vilgefortz never had many notable disciples, none alive that would be interested in resurrecting him... I can't even think of any in the first place. The concept of him having some weird organization dedicated to reviving him, and the concept of reviving him is something that both needs and lacks precedence. Recycling an antagonist, again. Might as well bring out Robo Bonhart while we're at it.

The new Aen Elle monarch

The Aen Elle are the only ones that could even do anything to her since they have some capability of traveling, but they're still lacking in power, and it's shown that Ciri would just slaughter them.

The Order of the Flaming Rose

Why? I don't even know if they're still around at this point, or got rolled into the Witch Hunters, which could at most put up some wanted signs for Ciri.

Witchers of the Cat School

Again, what could they do to her, why would they do it. Not to mention that they're pretty much disbanded, along with every other Witcher school.

Or, god forbid, they actually come up with a new enemy.

Any enemy they came up with would have to have unreasonable levels of power to be able to do anything, this is the core problem. A game with Ciri would lead to escalating power levels to the point where we might as well have Superman fighting Goku, taking the appeal of the relatively grounded Witcher universe and going the completely opposite direction.

Possible Locations:

Nilfgaard
Cintra
Occupied Temeria by Nilfgaard or Nilfgaard supporting Temerians
Zerkania
Rivia
Lyria
Kovir

Location isn't an issue.

Ciri's abilties:

* Replace Signs with Slow Time, Extra-Hard via Flash Step attack, Teleport Behind, and Freeze Enemy
* Ciri can make Sorceress Potions, Amulets, and Oils just fine
* Yes, swordsmanship

So basically, the only similarity is that both Ciri and Geralt can use swords to kill things. Sorry, but that doesn't sound like interesting gameplay to me, I liked potions, mutagens and signs. Also, Sorceress potions, so far as I know, bare very little resemblance to Witcher potions. It wouldn't be the same.

Given the Last Crone has Vesmir's amulet, I assumed we'd see Vesemir's Ghost summoned with it at some point. Perhaps giving her a weapon against Ciri.

That sounds kind of silly...

Geralt is the greatest swordsman in the world and also a superhuman mutant yet gets his ass kicked by Bandits. Ciri can teleport and is the 2nd greatest swordsman in the world so she should be fine.

She would be more than fine, since Ciri's power level has now far eclipsed Geralt's. Personally, I liked the possibility of getting my ass kicked by bandits instead of slicing them up like an anime protagonist.



---------- Updated at 07:47 PM ----------

Plotlines for a Ciri game off the top of my head

* Ciri is being hunted by the political enemies of Emperor Emhyr to destroy his bloodline.

Resolved by teleporting away or teleporting a sword into their gut.

* Emperor Emhyr is actually evil (surprise!) and wants to take her child to rule the Empire in her place w/ her as his puppet.

We already basically went over this in the books, he wasn't evil then, it would be stupid for him to be like "nevermind, I ACTUALLY am evil hahaha." again, resolved by leaving.

* Philippa Eilhart wants to take control of Ciri's mind to rule the Empire behind the scenes like Saskia.

That just seems weak and predictable.

* The Prophecy of her child ruling the world is still unfulfilled so people still want to force them to marry her.

Well, considering she broke the original prophecy in the end, I don't think people would care about the prophecy that is already proven to be wrong. Resolved by leaving or killing all of them.

* The Third Nilfgaard War is not done just because the tide is done and Ciri can try to take over.

Why would she try to take over, it's a stretch for her to take the throne of Nilfgaard when it's offered to her, but she's definitely not a political schemer. Not even a little bit. No motive.

* Cintran Nationalists want to restore Ciri to the throne of Cintra, independent from Nilfgaard and lead a revolution against them.

Seems like a bit of a stretch, since Ciri never seemed interested in anything like that.

* The Lodge of Sorceresses want to restore Ciri's magical abilities so she can become a proper sorceress.

Are we Harry Potter now

* The Cat School has been hired to hunt down and kill Ciri. They consider her claim to be a Witcher insulting to their order.

In the latest quest the cat school is shown to be over with. I don't think 3-4 witchers with a really petty motive would be enough to carry a narrative.

* The Last Crone wants revenge for her sister.

Solved by killing her or just staying out of Velen.

* Avallach has decided that he is going to use Ciri to become ruler of the Aen Sidhe.

Ruler of the Aen Seidhe? There's not much to rule, and he wouldn't have much use for Ciri apart from her killing everybody or acting as a taxi service.

* Lara Dorren's ghost has been placed in the body of a young white-haired woman and placed on the throne of Nilfgaard as a Fake Ciri. She orders the destruction of Ciri. It's at the hands of the Disciples of Vilgefortz who are secretly controlling her ancestors' mind.

No... just no, we might as well have Sephiroth enter the fray at this point. And recycling the fake Ciri plot line from the books.

* The Order of the Flaming Rose is seeking out Ciri because they believe her child is the destined successor to Jacques Aldersberg and their leader has an insane desire to impregnate her. They refuse to believe the White Frost is defeated.

Again, I don't really think they're around all that much these days.

* The Eternal Fire has declared Ciri to be their version of the Anti-Christ and started a hunt throughout the land for all girls vaguely matching her description.

It would be kind of retarded, but might work in that Ciri would actually have to do something other than leave.

* Anais is now a teenager and has decided to lead a revolution against Regent Roche in Temeria. Ciri can help her or fight her.

Doesn't make any sense. Roche is a staunch royalist, he would die for Anais. Besides, isn't it implied that she met with an unfortunate end in TW3? And why would Ciri care?

* A rabidly racist Imperial Marshal has decided he is going to destroy all nonhumans in the kingdom and Ciri must stop him.

Pogroms are nothing new, not really strong enough to carry an entire plot, more like side quest material.

This is why I don't want Ciri as a protagonist in possible future games. She's at such a high level, being the chosen one, that telling more grounded stories like Geralt's doesn't work because it gets trivialized, and telling grand ones of her killing everything bad and saving everybody in the universe for all time just ends up stupid. To even find a basic antagonist with an interesting motive that could do anything is a challenge, whereas with Geralt it's easy to think of numerous angles and narratives for him because his powers/position in the world don't break anything.

There's a reason Sapkowski had Ciri exit the stage of that world, a good one in my opinion.