Ciri - Should work from grave/discard

[ManwichTuesday]

Ciri

6 Power
Whenever you lose a round, return this unit to your hand.
2 Armor.


Compare to Ciri: Dash

11 Power
Whenever this unit is Discarded or destroyed, return it to your deck and Strengthen it by 3.



"Ciri: Dash" is already a comparably stronger unit at it's base, and can be used 3-4 times in a match on a deck that would actually use this.

"Ciri" can trigger it's ability 1 TIME MAXIMUM (must be on the board, and you must lose the round). What is the balance implication of allowing it to trigger out of graveyard? It would still only be usable 1 TIME MAXIMUM.

I'm admittedly irritated I just wasted 800 crafting this, but even if someone could make a "balance" argument for why this should remain this way, it doesn't excuse the fact that the card just doesn't do what it says. Yes, it helps with card count. But it's currently useless and doing what I say would only help discard decks (which currently, I don't see anyone else talking about so that clearly won't be a factor).

 

[4RM3D]

You've missed the point where Ciri gives card advantage and Dash doesn't.

Incidentally, you haven't wasted anything because you are getting full scraps back when Homecoming launches anyway.

 

[ManwichTuesday]

You've missed the point where Ciri gives card advantage and Dash doesn't.

I mention this very point.

Yes, it helps with card count.

If we're talking about Ciri, the ONLY thing there is to talk about is the card advantage. Without this extrinsic benefit, she is a 6 point swing card with nothing else. She is literally, the worst Gold unit in the game if you don't know about her card advantage.

The Card advantage is a small window, limited applicability benefit that triggers under 1 scenario: you're losing, you have her on board, it isn't round 3.

Extending that to apply discard/graveyard would change very little about that mechanic, and she would still be in very few decks.

 

[Rawls]

The Card advantage is a small window, limited applicability benefit that triggers under 1 scenario: you're losing, you have her on board, it isn't round 3.

But card advantage is huge in Gwent. Getting/maintaining card advantage has probably been the most consistent winning strategy in Gwent of the course of the game. Having said that I do agree that regular Ciri is too weak in her current forum. I've thought for awhile she should should be 6 power with 5 armor, so that she isn't vulnerable to bronze removal, but is still a target for mandrake. The reason she isn't used more is that she is a Gold that can be totally countered by a bronze card (Azur Thunder or Elven Sword). If you made her harder to knock out, she would be more popular. Having said all this, with Homecoming's upcoming changes, most of this is moot.

 

[ManwichTuesday]

But card advantage is huge in Gwent. Getting/maintaining card advantage has probably been the most consistent winning strategy in Gwent of the course of the game. Having said that I do agree that regular Ciri is too weak in her current forum. I've thought for awhile she should should be 6 power with 5 armor, so that she isn't vulnerable to bronze removal, but is still a target for mandrake. The reason she isn't used more is that she is a Gold that can be totally countered by a bronze card (Azur Thunder or Elven Sword). If you made her harder to knock out, she would be more popular. Having said all this, with Homecoming's upcoming changes, most of this is moot.

I'm all for what you say, in addition to making her trigger out of graveyard. She's currently terrible.

Card count in wave 3 just isn't what it was in closed beta. Too many builds are generating too much power for this card to make the cut. Buffs and debuffs are now at flat point modifiers, they dont' scale. There is less of a race to be the first to de-buff, or last to buff at game end now.

 

[Mr_Mugglez]

I agree she is a completely rubbish gold. What's the point in having CA if it's only worth 6 points? Many of the bronzes are worth more than 6 haha

 

[partci]

I agree she is a completely rubbish gold...

Besides the times when it was auto-include in every deck.

It became really nerfed after the Gold Immunity patch, that hit her really hard, but what hit her even harder is the vast amount of (tutor) cards that are doing enough damage to kill her. Still can find huge value, though.

 

[ManwichTuesday]

Besides the times when it was auto-include in every deck.

That was a loooong time ago. Current stat page has her in .41% of all decks.

 

[devivre]

She worked very well when Gwent had smaller point swings. I think the high tempo is the main problem this card has these days.

 

[ManwichTuesday]

She worked very well when Gwent had smaller point swings. I think the high tempo is the main problem this card has these days.

Her point swing is lower than the average bronze unit now. Back in closed beta, it took work to get 10+ bronze. Now they're free. Ciri didn't change with the times.

While her armor may give her sustain, it only helps her fit into that niche spot mentioned above. To further illustrate her utility being slightly lower, the benefit of "between-round" exchanging after she has been used is somewhat mitigated by the possibility of redrawing her in wave 3 (if she was exchanged after round 1). This is a mitigating factor because of how little she contributes to actually winning round 3 as a played card.

I'm just asking to extend the ability (return to hand on losing round) to also apply if she is in the graveyard. Dev doesn't even need to change text, since the text isn't clear (hence my post). Would still need to lose the round. Thus, still only getting use out of this 1 maximum possible time (and sometimes zero). How many other golds end up sometimes just being a 6 power unit? My unborn children can already count to that number.

This would add very little buff (for anyone suggesting it's already powerful), and actually benefit those decks trying to revive a dormant gold.

 

[devivre]

It‘s best to wait for homecoming before extending anything.
If power swings are smaller after this update, a card like Ciri could become great again.

 

[time_drainer]

Vanilla Ciri vs Dash: that's like comparing apples with oranges. The two cards have nothing in common other than both of them being Gold and based on the same character. That said currently both fall in the meme category.

As for Ciri herself: while I agree the card is pretty much useless currently, I don't think the solution is to make her uncounterable (trigger from graveyard) or barely counterable (getting her out of range for most elimination) or she becomes easy/auto CA which is the last thing the game needs.
With current ruleset: you're on blue, you play something, I play Ciri. You can't do anything about her, so you have two choices: 1. pass and give me the round on -1 card. If I have a strong long round, I win the match. 2. play something else, I pass and you win -2 cards and already in a huge disadvantage. This may not be possible after Homecoming in this form, but I don't think it would be too hard to find a different way for abuse.

As for being low tempo: it's not an issue for CA cards. Agents are -13 points and probably still the strongest cards in the game including Golds.

I don't know if they plan to change her ability with Homecoming, but if they leave her more or less untouched but less prone to elimination, I really hope they add some additional condition to her ability to trigger (like a counter of couple rounds).

 

[ManwichTuesday]

Games aren't being auto-decided by card count like they used to be. I think you're putting more value in card count than offsets a 6 power gold.

But even your scenario - if a 6 power card play forces you to make the decisions you outline, then shame on you. Bronze units are averaging more point sway than this. So if an opponent puts you in card count situation with a 6 power play.........I'm calling bs on your tactics. It was very possible in closed beta when cards weren't all averaging 10 point sway. But today they are, and this scenario is minimal.

 

[time_drainer]

Games aren't being auto-decided by card count like they used to be. I think you're putting more value in card count than offsets a 6 power gold.

Unless most of the time they do. As you pointed out bronze cards have large value, so even having 1 bronze over your opponent is often enough. First two rounds are all about getting card advantage and controlling round 3 length. But yes in some situations -1CA can be countered by having deck more suited to the length of the round.

But even your scenario - if a 6 power card play forces you to make the decisions you outline, then shame on you. Bronze units are averaging more point sway than this. So if an opponent puts you in card count situation with a 6 power play.........I'm calling bs on your tactics. It was very possible in closed beta when cards weren't all averaging 10 point sway. But today they are, and this scenario is minimal.

I'm wondering what would be your "tactics" to avoid this unavoidable situation. It's pretty much like the infamous Cleaver coinflip abuse.
What you don't get is, that the card's power value doesn't mean anything if you're going to lose the round, when it gets played anyway, and you're playing it only for getting CA in next rounds. (Okay, actually if you're very unlucky you'll be randomly mulliganing into your now useless Ciri in last round, which is the only risk I see with this play.)

 

[ManwichTuesday]

What you don't get is, that the card's power value doesn't mean anything if you're going to lose the round, when it gets played anyway, and you're playing it only for getting CA in next rounds. (Okay, actually if you're very unlucky you'll be randomly mulliganing into your now useless Ciri in last round, which is the only risk I see with this play.)

I'm reminded of the Sabbath thread right now where everyone says he can easily be wiped as soon as he comes out. It's easier to wipe Ciri in the same manner. So the same way a very strong card like Sabbath can be easily mitigated, this very weak card (Ciri) can be mitigated the same.

So in your scenario where you say "the card's power value doesn't mean anything if you're going to lose the round", that means you're either: a) playing her when you already lost the round, meaning the card advantage is null, or b) giving up a card at the same time you potentially aren't winning the board, thus giving up card advantage. And then she
a) can be killed when played, further losing card advantage and still not retaining board
b) is a useless draw on round 3

Post automatically merged: Oct 7, 2018

And I realize I sound very combative. I apologize for calling out your tactics in such a generalized way.

But the card stats are what they are. The site shows almost no usage of this card in any deck. So anyone in this thread saying Ciri is too strong in her current form is just being flat out ignorant to the fact that the lack of usage suggests that isn't the case.

 

[time_drainer]

And I realize I sound very combative. I apologize for calling out your tactics in such a generalized way.

No worries I'm not easily offended (as long you're also okay if I get to sound a little bit "provocative" sometimes)

Before everything else: I do realize she's now useless because she's easily eliminated. I'm only saying she would get too strong if it would be impossible or near impossible to eliminate her.

As for

So in your scenario where you say "the card's power value doesn't mean anything if you're going to lose the round", that means you're either: a) playing her when you already lost the round, meaning the card advantage is null, or b) giving up a card at the same time you potentially aren't winning the board, thus giving up card advantage.

In the two scenarios you described of course it makes no sense to play her. You want to play her in a stuation where the round can still go both ways, and make your opponent choose between the lesser of two bad decisions.
Forcing your opponent to give up the round very early or go -2CA is one such scenario. So again:

you're on blue, you play something, I play Ciri. You can't do anything about her, so you have two choices: 1. pass and give me the round on -1 card. If I have a strong long round, I win the match. 2. play something else, I pass and you win -2 cards and already in a huge disadvantage.

You'll probably still be ahead when your opponent plays her, and yes, and if you pass the opponent gains no card advantage, but can probably take the round with another card. Meaning in just one card you lost the control of the match, which is big enough win for your opponent I think.

Crach to Morkvarg on red coin is kind of a similar abuse btw, so I'm not saying it would be the biggest problem the game has, but still a problem.

Now with Homecoming she became hard to remove (in 1 turn at least), but the update also rewrote some of the rules so this scenario doesn't apply anymore. We'll see whether there would be an easy way to abuse the card in this new framework.

 

[ConradAUS]

How take the old Ciri dash and put her in the new gwent:

"Deploy: Boost self by 2 for each charge this unit has.
Whenever this card enters the graveyard, shuffle it into your deck and gain 1 charge.

Charge: 0"

Post automatically merged: Oct 8, 2018