Cirilla Fiona Elen Riannon discussion thread

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Cirilla Fiona Elen Riannon discussion thread

Seeing as people are so active with the whole Triss and Yen relationships, I'd like to raise awareness specifically for the one person I've grown to care the most in this game.

Inspired by this great thread, so to avoid hijacking it, I'll share here as well some of my long brewing thoughts and feelings.
Ciri

Thankfully, the central most relationship (Geralt and Ciri's) is also the most explored. That said, it isn't without some oddities: The choices that govern Ciri's fate feel a little trivial. They seem like small moments and decisions in between much larger moments and decisions. I get what the devs are going for here and I agree with them to an extent. I just think there needs to be more decisions that matter. Right now Ciri's fate rests on five decisions Geralt must make in the game:

1. You have to have a snowball fight with Ciri.
2. You have to refuse payment from Emhyr
3. You have to let Ciri talk to the Lodge on her own.
4. You have to let Ciri ransack Avallac'h's laboratory
5. You have to help Ciri bury Skjall.

The choices you make lead to one of three endings:

1. Ciri is (possibly) dead, Geralt then kills himself by monster.
2. Ciri follows in her biological father's footsteps and becomes the Empress of Nilfgaard.
3. Ciri follows her adoptive father's (Geralt's) footsteps and becomes a Witcheress.


This is one of the major issues I've had with Ciri and her relationship with Geralt. Considering it's affecting pretty much the very bone and marrow of the story, I'd like to continue deeper with some of my thoughts.

To me, the the main cause for misunderstanding CDPR's intentions, and thus separating these decisions to objective and subjective ones is the lack of consistency.

In a few occasions I'll elaborate on later, the "right" decision has been considered the wrong one. There is also a certain lack of gravity, to make the player realize what they're about to say is very important, especially when certain other situations were deemed unimportant, like supporting her elven friends by stealing horses.

Just like in a basketball game, it's not about the written rules, but rather how the referees interpret them and stay consistent on those interpretations throughout the game, the same applies in Witcher 3 storytelling. It wouldn't matter as much if CDPR strayed from the rules and relationship terms with Geralt from the books, as long as they showed consistency in how the player affects the relationship throughout the game.

But let's get into it, step by step and see what is creating the problem, and what could be done to remedy it.


1. You have to have a snowball fight with Ciri.

This is the only "wrong" choice I've made in my first play through, and it comes down to simply misphrasing Geralt's intentions when he says "Relax, you don't have to be good at everything". And then it turns out he didn't mean to elevate Ciri's incredible and constant burden/pressure and make her realize it's OK to be human, but rather go on a sulk piss.
Now, what caught me by surprise is "Mass Effect" type of dialog option, where a character is offered one thing, then does/says something completely different. It's just not what I thought it would be, and it didn't lead where I thought it'd lead.

Let's look at Ciri's emotional state at that time. She's shown by far the highest level of distress and turmoil during the entire game, due to Vesemir's death. It looked absolutely soul crushing. If Ciri was a child, a simple distraction like snowball fight would be understandable.
But Ciri is an adult, and adults perceive such sorrow on a much deeper level, due to being able to comprehend the gravity and consequences of the situation.
I may be subjective here, and I can see how Geralt making up for lost time with Ciri and having a snowball fight could actually work, sort of removing Ciri from that time and place and temporarily placing her into another. Although, to me it's more like offering to a crying woman at a funeral to play Super Mario.

If CDPR would consider adjusting this major decision point, I'd suggest to leave the drinking part, but modify it so it at least represents a "neutral" choice, or a good one. And there is some serious missed opportunity here, just think about it.
When Geralt and Ciri sit down to get drunk, Eskel and Lambert could've joined in, true to their Kaer Morhen custom, and turn glum atmosphere into a bright one. They could reminisce of good times with Vesemir and cheer Ciri up, while at the same time processing Vesemir's passing like adults. After they've had a few, Lambert pulls out Vesemir's hat, puts it on Ciri's head and exclaims due to recent vacancy, it's time to make Ciri an official witcher/witcheress. Everyone else toasts to the best idea of the evening and they all drag their drunken asses to the elemental stone shrine (where Geralt went with Lambert before), on the way fighting the trolls in their drunken state. That scene ends with Ciri and Geralt sitting together, staring in to the mountains and both proclaiming they miss Vesemir.
In the morning, Yennefer and Avallac'h find them passed out on the site, with Lambert sleeping on top of Eskel, and Ciri on top of Geralt. Yen's shaking her head and Avallac'h offering a snarky remark "It's amazing you humans survived at all, let alone rule this word...", as the camera zooms out to show the elemental stone shrine with Vesemir's hat on it.


2. You have to refuse payment from Emhyr

I've never gotten this far, as an avid books fan, it never crossed my mind to encourage her go back to Emhyr. But I'd like to discuss the moment before that, where Ciri decides Imlerith must die.
This, to me, is one of the most character defining decisions Ciri makes, and it bothered me to no end when Geralt decided to steal her thunder. Not only is he preventing her from being herself and making her own decisions, it's completely against the CDPR's "philosophy" that letting Ciri making her own decisions is good. A major consistency breakdown.
The way I see it, Ciri's world turned upside down when Vesemir died, and she obviously could not possibly begin to cope with anything else in her life until she's found some way to express her anger, and take control of her life back, in a manner of saying.
It was absolutely crucial that she kills Imlerith and with Geralt taking that away from her, he did no better than step in front of her to protect her against the Lodge, in their later encounter.

If CDPR would ever consider adjusting this for consistency sake, if nothing else, I'd suggest reversing the roles in that fight. Let Ciri fight Imlerith, after all, how can she be a strong, capable, self dependent person Geralt and Yen want her to be, if she's not allowed to fight her own fights. And it's not like Geralt fighting the crones is completely out of place. He's got some unfinished business, especially after getting obviously emotionally attached to the Bloody Baron, and possibly getting a really depressing ending there. This surely gives Geralt enough to find satisfaction in dealing with them.


3. You have to let Ciri talk to the Lodge on her own.

This, I thought, was very well done, I've completely understood CDPR's intentions here, and was satisfied/amused with the outcome of letting her go alone.


4. You have to let Ciri ransack Avallac'h's laboratory

There is a multiple consistency and lore breakdown here. Ciri is portrayed like a vulnerable teenager, susceptible to the venom mean girls in her class are spreading. That Ann Elle woman is a stranger, means noting to Ciri and is obviously jealous/buthurt about Avallac'h spending so much time with her.
The character the Ciri is, "someone who's endured more than a 40 year old war veteran", someone who's been beaten down and abused since early age, someone who's found an incredible fire during her teen years with the "Rats", there is no way in her she'd just stand there and take it.

She would've exploded in a storm of anger, venom and malice doubled to that of the elven woman. She would let her have it and then some and maybe even headbutt her or fake to make her jump in fear. She would've shown that she is the daughter of Yennefer, the iciest, stormy bitch when provoked.

Of this temperament we have proof of, from CDPR themselves, in Ciri's solo encounter with the Lodge, where she made Philippa Eilhart go pale.

Now, if CDPR would ever decide to adjust this, there is actually room for two decisions to be made here by Geralt, and a HUGE missed opportunity.
Choice number one: As the elven woman is nearing the end of her speech, Ciri is looking at her and then at Geralt, her expression "is this bitch for real?"
Now players can decide if Geralt steps forward to defend Ciri, or takes a ceremonial bow, like he was thought by the Nilfgaardian butler (to Yen's amusement), and let Ciri have at her.
Choice number two: After they've dealt with the elven woman, I can only then understand CDPR's reasoning that Ciri would still be upset, that their racial profiling still gets to her, after all this time.
Now, we get to decide whether to ransack the place to let off some steam or just leave.


5. You have to help Ciri bury Skjall.

This was also very understandable, I'm perfectly happy with reasoning behind this choice.


6. Help Ciri support her friends by stealing the horses.

This is such a missed opportunity, but also a huge, gaping hole in consistency of making these breaking points. The whole thing is perfect as it is, it just makes ZERO sense not to include this as a relationship/character builder for Ciri. Probably easiest one to adjust, should CDPR ever consider doing it.

So there it is, feels good getting this out. Would welcome any comments and open to discuss further the possibilities.

I may have come across as too harsh and judgmental, but everything I did not mention or go deep into, I thought was incredibly well done.
If CDPR decided to "enhance" these conflicting moments with Ciri, it would complete my emotional journey with her in a 100% positive way. In fact, it would be so gratifying, the end with the White Frost would not bother me at all.
 
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Ciri is the best pony.



 

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I'm going to be honest, I didn't really like her in the books, too much of a Mary Sue. I didn't notice it or mind it so much in the games however.

Eh, the books are a Deconstruction of the Chosen One concept. It's kind of like Watchmen and superheroes. In the Watchmen, superheroes are treated as sexually and psychologically dysfunctional fascists or mentally ill weirdos who make the world worst instead of better. In The Witcher series, being the Chosen One unambiguously sucks for Ciri. She is hunted as a monster, used as a pawn, and treated as nothing more than someone to be raped or married off against her will or killed by just about everyone she meets in power.

It's why the Empress ending is the most dissonant to me.

I think the bits with Yennefer and Geralt where they're just a family is about the only non-annoying child in the history of any media anywhere.

Well, save Newt from Aliens.
 
I like Ciri! While she is sometimes a bit too popular, she also has some clear flaws that round up her character. I was sad when she died in my first playthrough because I made decisions that apparently destroyed her feeling of self-worth.
I just hope that the alternate skin for Ciri does her justice and is not just an even bigger boob window. That was the only thing that really bothered me about her design: The unnecessary bra peek window and the heels. She is a badass adventurer on the run for Allgod's sake. There's not even the excuse that she is supposed to be a sexy love interest or a sorceresse that puts a huge amount of effort in her looks. Why couldn't they dress her like some of the badass concept arts in the art book? Those look way more practical.
Well at least she does not have the Bioware butt swaying syndrom.
 
That's a very good observation Willowhugger. Rarely do we see relationships in games explored, beyond simple attraction / love interest.

I salute CDPR for implementing the parental aspect, even with its flaws, I still enjoyed it more than any love interest in the series.
And it helps Ciri is endearing, rather than usual annoying.

As the story progressed, I couldn't help but feel proud for Geralt and Yen, what w fine young lady they've moulded, from a little girl in the books.


I like Ciri! While she is sometimes a bit too popular, she also has some clear flaws that round up her character. I was sad when she died in my first playthrough because I made decisions that apparently destroyed her feeling of self-worth.
I just hope that the alternate skin for Ciri does her justice and is not just an even bigger boob window. That was the only thing that really bothered me about her design: The unnecessary bra peek window and the heels. She is a badass adventurer on the run for Allgod's sake. There's not even the excuse that she is supposed to be a sexy love interest or a sorceresse that puts a huge amount of effort in her looks. Why couldn't they dress her like some of the badass concept arts in the art book? Those look way more practical.
Well at least she does not have the Bioware butt swaying syndrom.

I agree with you to some degree. The high heels made my eyes bleed and stomach churn, just why?

As for her expression of sexuality and looks, well that's kinda normal for any woman, especially for daughter of Yennefer.

I didn't even notice the bra, was so engrossed in my dad role.

Having the alternative leather armour look/gear would be a delightful cherry on top. Love the concept art
 
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Mostly agree. I note though that to be a strong character Ciri should have made mind of her own and shouldn't have waited for Geralt's approval on everything. Having her looking for Geralt's approval makes the Empress ending unbelievable since to qualify for the proper empress she needs to call the shots, as empress in the current situation as shown in TW3 (not the books version of Ciri) she will be a puppet of somebody charismatic and influential. CDPR should have made some other way of determining the outcome of the story. The save the world from the White Frost twist by itself is quite strange. But it was already covered in the "messy plot" thread: http://forums.cdprojektred.com/thre...-of-the-game-is-a-bad-hot-mess-major-spoilers!!!
 
Well, that's the thing @Maerd that Ciri is a strong female characterTM but she's a strong female character in the same way which Rick Grimes is a strong male characterTM. Ciri is not a character who is completely in control of their own minds but is a survivor. The book character, in particular, is one who suffers a series of horrifying traumas which just keep piling up one after the other until they pretty much make her suicidal (and Ciri finds herself unable to commit suicide just barely).

She is, in the books especially, one of "The Walking Dead." A person who manages to continue fighting on and surviving despite the fact the universe has made it to the point that her life is nothing but pain, misery, and trauma. Like Rick Grimes, she refuses to succumb to death but not really because she's happy to be alive.

The adaptation in the video games is interesting because it shows that seven years of wandering around the universe with Avallach has really done a lot to make Ciri a healthier happier person because she was NOT in a good headspace way back when. The trauma with Cintra, the Patty Hearst Stockholm Syndrome with the Rats, and everything else would have broken most people. The fact she's a relatively cheerful decent person in the games is frankly, ASTOUNDING, since most people would have had a breakdown to become Batman or the Joker by that time.

It's why she reacts, I think, to Geralt's words in such a disproportionate fashion and the same for Avallach because Ciri is NOT in a good way during the game either. When she's given the opportunity to die fighting the White Frost, suicide by proxy, she takes it unless Geralt has given her a flicker of hope that LIFE WILL GET BETTER.

Which, of course, like Emhyr is something the game barely touches on.
 
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New DLC brings alternative Ciri outfit, delayed on PC, but live on xbone.


I don't know how I feel about it. It's definitely not an ideal armour, with her torso and arms exposed.
And it's not really blowing me away as an esthetic piece of clothing.

I feel like they should've gone for the armour, like any from this concept art
 
Well. No. This I do not like. It is just so damn generic warrior princess with the onesided armor and the chainmail short vest. I would have prefered either a Nilfgaardian option (to reflect the empress ending) or a wolf school option that makes her look like a real part of her adoptive family. This does not reflect Ciri at all to me. Why the exposed midriff and sternum? Why the assymetric sleeves and gloves and the cleavage? This was everything I was worried about earlier. This doesn't appeal to me on a fashion level (like Yen's did at least) or on a character level.
 
Looks very skelligan, i like it. the Triss one is so bad they should have reused the one from Witcher 2.
 
Chest looks like a female version of the Wolven Armor. Only without protection. Looks cool though.
 
I guess the Skellige style is fitting, with her back story and the location in game, but she'd freeze to death.

Even as a child and a teenager, she has found use and wore armour:

 

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I guess, at least for me one of the main issues I had with Ciri was the lack of interaction with Yennefer. In the books, Yen takes the role as Ciri's mother, and one can tell that they have an extremely close relationship. Which is why I found it dissapointing when all they did was hug, exchange a few words, and boom, the end, basically. It would have been nice to have seen a quiet conversation between Geralt, Ciri and Yennefer, as they both take on the roles as her parents and the people closest to her. I mean, Ciri was gone for what, roughly 20 years? And Yennefer has nothing to say to her, nothing to ask her? I don't buy it.
 
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