Cirilla Fiona Elen Riannon discussion thread
Seeing as people are so active with the whole Triss and Yen relationships, I'd like to raise awareness specifically for the one person I've grown to care the most in this game.
Inspired by this great thread, so to avoid hijacking it, I'll share here as well some of my long brewing thoughts and feelings.
This is one of the major issues I've had with Ciri and her relationship with Geralt. Considering it's affecting pretty much the very bone and marrow of the story, I'd like to continue deeper with some of my thoughts.
To me, the the main cause for misunderstanding CDPR's intentions, and thus separating these decisions to objective and subjective ones is the lack of consistency.
In a few occasions I'll elaborate on later, the "right" decision has been considered the wrong one. There is also a certain lack of gravity, to make the player realize what they're about to say is very important, especially when certain other situations were deemed unimportant, like supporting her elven friends by stealing horses.
Just like in a basketball game, it's not about the written rules, but rather how the referees interpret them and stay consistent on those interpretations throughout the game, the same applies in Witcher 3 storytelling. It wouldn't matter as much if CDPR strayed from the rules and relationship terms with Geralt from the books, as long as they showed consistency in how the player affects the relationship throughout the game.
But let's get into it, step by step and see what is creating the problem, and what could be done to remedy it.
1. You have to have a snowball fight with Ciri.
This is the only "wrong" choice I've made in my first play through, and it comes down to simply misphrasing Geralt's intentions when he says "Relax, you don't have to be good at everything". And then it turns out he didn't mean to elevate Ciri's incredible and constant burden/pressure and make her realize it's OK to be human, but rather go on a sulk piss.
Now, what caught me by surprise is "Mass Effect" type of dialog option, where a character is offered one thing, then does/says something completely different. It's just not what I thought it would be, and it didn't lead where I thought it'd lead.
Let's look at Ciri's emotional state at that time. She's shown by far the highest level of distress and turmoil during the entire game, due to Vesemir's death. It looked absolutely soul crushing. If Ciri was a child, a simple distraction like snowball fight would be understandable.
But Ciri is an adult, and adults perceive such sorrow on a much deeper level, due to being able to comprehend the gravity and consequences of the situation.
I may be subjective here, and I can see how Geralt making up for lost time with Ciri and having a snowball fight could actually work, sort of removing Ciri from that time and place and temporarily placing her into another. Although, to me it's more like offering to a crying woman at a funeral to play Super Mario.
If CDPR would consider adjusting this major decision point, I'd suggest to leave the drinking part, but modify it so it at least represents a "neutral" choice, or a good one. And there is some serious missed opportunity here, just think about it.
When Geralt and Ciri sit down to get drunk, Eskel and Lambert could've joined in, true to their Kaer Morhen custom, and turn glum atmosphere into a bright one. They could reminisce of good times with Vesemir and cheer Ciri up, while at the same time processing Vesemir's passing like adults. After they've had a few, Lambert pulls out Vesemir's hat, puts it on Ciri's head and exclaims due to recent vacancy, it's time to make Ciri an official witcher/witcheress. Everyone else toasts to the best idea of the evening and they all drag their drunken asses to the elemental stone shrine (where Geralt went with Lambert before), on the way fighting the trolls in their drunken state. That scene ends with Ciri and Geralt sitting together, staring in to the mountains and both proclaiming they miss Vesemir.
In the morning, Yennefer and Avallac'h find them passed out on the site, with Lambert sleeping on top of Eskel, and Ciri on top of Geralt. Yen's shaking her head and Avallac'h offering a snarky remark "It's amazing you humans survived at all, let alone rule this word...", as the camera zooms out to show the elemental stone shrine with Vesemir's hat on it.
2. You have to refuse payment from Emhyr
I've never gotten this far, as an avid books fan, it never crossed my mind to encourage her go back to Emhyr. But I'd like to discuss the moment before that, where Ciri decides Imlerith must die.
This, to me, is one of the most character defining decisions Ciri makes, and it bothered me to no end when Geralt decided to steal her thunder. Not only is he preventing her from being herself and making her own decisions, it's completely against the CDPR's "philosophy" that letting Ciri making her own decisions is good. A major consistency breakdown.
The way I see it, Ciri's world turned upside down when Vesemir died, and she obviously could not possibly begin to cope with anything else in her life until she's found some way to express her anger, and take control of her life back, in a manner of saying.
It was absolutely crucial that she kills Imlerith and with Geralt taking that away from her, he did no better than step in front of her to protect her against the Lodge, in their later encounter.
If CDPR would ever consider adjusting this for consistency sake, if nothing else, I'd suggest reversing the roles in that fight. Let Ciri fight Imlerith, after all, how can she be a strong, capable, self dependent person Geralt and Yen want her to be, if she's not allowed to fight her own fights. And it's not like Geralt fighting the crones is completely out of place. He's got some unfinished business, especially after getting obviously emotionally attached to the Bloody Baron, and possibly getting a really depressing ending there. This surely gives Geralt enough to find satisfaction in dealing with them.
3. You have to let Ciri talk to the Lodge on her own.
This, I thought, was very well done, I've completely understood CDPR's intentions here, and was satisfied/amused with the outcome of letting her go alone.
4. You have to let Ciri ransack Avallac'h's laboratory
There is a multiple consistency and lore breakdown here. Ciri is portrayed like a vulnerable teenager, susceptible to the venom mean girls in her class are spreading. That Ann Elle woman is a stranger, means noting to Ciri and is obviously jealous/buthurt about Avallac'h spending so much time with her.
The character the Ciri is, "someone who's endured more than a 40 year old war veteran", someone who's been beaten down and abused since early age, someone who's found an incredible fire during her teen years with the "Rats", there is no way in her she'd just stand there and take it.
She would've exploded in a storm of anger, venom and malice doubled to that of the elven woman. She would let her have it and then some and maybe even headbutt her or fake to make her jump in fear. She would've shown that she is the daughter of Yennefer, the iciest, stormy bitch when provoked.
Of this temperament we have proof of, from CDPR themselves, in Ciri's solo encounter with the Lodge, where she made Philippa Eilhart go pale.
Now, if CDPR would ever decide to adjust this, there is actually room for two decisions to be made here by Geralt, and a HUGE missed opportunity.
Choice number one: As the elven woman is nearing the end of her speech, Ciri is looking at her and then at Geralt, her expression "is this bitch for real?"
Now players can decide if Geralt steps forward to defend Ciri, or takes a ceremonial bow, like he was thought by the Nilfgaardian butler (to Yen's amusement), and let Ciri have at her.
Choice number two: After they've dealt with the elven woman, I can only then understand CDPR's reasoning that Ciri would still be upset, that their racial profiling still gets to her, after all this time.
Now, we get to decide whether to ransack the place to let off some steam or just leave.
5. You have to help Ciri bury Skjall.
This was also very understandable, I'm perfectly happy with reasoning behind this choice.
6. Help Ciri support her friends by stealing the horses.
This is such a missed opportunity, but also a huge, gaping hole in consistency of making these breaking points. The whole thing is perfect as it is, it just makes ZERO sense not to include this as a relationship/character builder for Ciri. Probably easiest one to adjust, should CDPR ever consider doing it.
So there it is, feels good getting this out. Would welcome any comments and open to discuss further the possibilities.
I may have come across as too harsh and judgmental, but everything I did not mention or go deep into, I thought was incredibly well done.
If CDPR decided to "enhance" these conflicting moments with Ciri, it would complete my emotional journey with her in a 100% positive way. In fact, it would be so gratifying, the end with the White Frost would not bother me at all.
Seeing as people are so active with the whole Triss and Yen relationships, I'd like to raise awareness specifically for the one person I've grown to care the most in this game.
Inspired by this great thread, so to avoid hijacking it, I'll share here as well some of my long brewing thoughts and feelings.
This is one of the major issues I've had with Ciri and her relationship with Geralt. Considering it's affecting pretty much the very bone and marrow of the story, I'd like to continue deeper with some of my thoughts.
To me, the the main cause for misunderstanding CDPR's intentions, and thus separating these decisions to objective and subjective ones is the lack of consistency.
In a few occasions I'll elaborate on later, the "right" decision has been considered the wrong one. There is also a certain lack of gravity, to make the player realize what they're about to say is very important, especially when certain other situations were deemed unimportant, like supporting her elven friends by stealing horses.
Just like in a basketball game, it's not about the written rules, but rather how the referees interpret them and stay consistent on those interpretations throughout the game, the same applies in Witcher 3 storytelling. It wouldn't matter as much if CDPR strayed from the rules and relationship terms with Geralt from the books, as long as they showed consistency in how the player affects the relationship throughout the game.
But let's get into it, step by step and see what is creating the problem, and what could be done to remedy it.
1. You have to have a snowball fight with Ciri.
This is the only "wrong" choice I've made in my first play through, and it comes down to simply misphrasing Geralt's intentions when he says "Relax, you don't have to be good at everything". And then it turns out he didn't mean to elevate Ciri's incredible and constant burden/pressure and make her realize it's OK to be human, but rather go on a sulk piss.
Now, what caught me by surprise is "Mass Effect" type of dialog option, where a character is offered one thing, then does/says something completely different. It's just not what I thought it would be, and it didn't lead where I thought it'd lead.
Let's look at Ciri's emotional state at that time. She's shown by far the highest level of distress and turmoil during the entire game, due to Vesemir's death. It looked absolutely soul crushing. If Ciri was a child, a simple distraction like snowball fight would be understandable.
But Ciri is an adult, and adults perceive such sorrow on a much deeper level, due to being able to comprehend the gravity and consequences of the situation.
I may be subjective here, and I can see how Geralt making up for lost time with Ciri and having a snowball fight could actually work, sort of removing Ciri from that time and place and temporarily placing her into another. Although, to me it's more like offering to a crying woman at a funeral to play Super Mario.
If CDPR would consider adjusting this major decision point, I'd suggest to leave the drinking part, but modify it so it at least represents a "neutral" choice, or a good one. And there is some serious missed opportunity here, just think about it.
When Geralt and Ciri sit down to get drunk, Eskel and Lambert could've joined in, true to their Kaer Morhen custom, and turn glum atmosphere into a bright one. They could reminisce of good times with Vesemir and cheer Ciri up, while at the same time processing Vesemir's passing like adults. After they've had a few, Lambert pulls out Vesemir's hat, puts it on Ciri's head and exclaims due to recent vacancy, it's time to make Ciri an official witcher/witcheress. Everyone else toasts to the best idea of the evening and they all drag their drunken asses to the elemental stone shrine (where Geralt went with Lambert before), on the way fighting the trolls in their drunken state. That scene ends with Ciri and Geralt sitting together, staring in to the mountains and both proclaiming they miss Vesemir.
In the morning, Yennefer and Avallac'h find them passed out on the site, with Lambert sleeping on top of Eskel, and Ciri on top of Geralt. Yen's shaking her head and Avallac'h offering a snarky remark "It's amazing you humans survived at all, let alone rule this word...", as the camera zooms out to show the elemental stone shrine with Vesemir's hat on it.
2. You have to refuse payment from Emhyr
I've never gotten this far, as an avid books fan, it never crossed my mind to encourage her go back to Emhyr. But I'd like to discuss the moment before that, where Ciri decides Imlerith must die.
This, to me, is one of the most character defining decisions Ciri makes, and it bothered me to no end when Geralt decided to steal her thunder. Not only is he preventing her from being herself and making her own decisions, it's completely against the CDPR's "philosophy" that letting Ciri making her own decisions is good. A major consistency breakdown.
The way I see it, Ciri's world turned upside down when Vesemir died, and she obviously could not possibly begin to cope with anything else in her life until she's found some way to express her anger, and take control of her life back, in a manner of saying.
It was absolutely crucial that she kills Imlerith and with Geralt taking that away from her, he did no better than step in front of her to protect her against the Lodge, in their later encounter.
If CDPR would ever consider adjusting this for consistency sake, if nothing else, I'd suggest reversing the roles in that fight. Let Ciri fight Imlerith, after all, how can she be a strong, capable, self dependent person Geralt and Yen want her to be, if she's not allowed to fight her own fights. And it's not like Geralt fighting the crones is completely out of place. He's got some unfinished business, especially after getting obviously emotionally attached to the Bloody Baron, and possibly getting a really depressing ending there. This surely gives Geralt enough to find satisfaction in dealing with them.
3. You have to let Ciri talk to the Lodge on her own.
This, I thought, was very well done, I've completely understood CDPR's intentions here, and was satisfied/amused with the outcome of letting her go alone.
4. You have to let Ciri ransack Avallac'h's laboratory
There is a multiple consistency and lore breakdown here. Ciri is portrayed like a vulnerable teenager, susceptible to the venom mean girls in her class are spreading. That Ann Elle woman is a stranger, means noting to Ciri and is obviously jealous/buthurt about Avallac'h spending so much time with her.
The character the Ciri is, "someone who's endured more than a 40 year old war veteran", someone who's been beaten down and abused since early age, someone who's found an incredible fire during her teen years with the "Rats", there is no way in her she'd just stand there and take it.
She would've exploded in a storm of anger, venom and malice doubled to that of the elven woman. She would let her have it and then some and maybe even headbutt her or fake to make her jump in fear. She would've shown that she is the daughter of Yennefer, the iciest, stormy bitch when provoked.
Of this temperament we have proof of, from CDPR themselves, in Ciri's solo encounter with the Lodge, where she made Philippa Eilhart go pale.
Now, if CDPR would ever decide to adjust this, there is actually room for two decisions to be made here by Geralt, and a HUGE missed opportunity.
Choice number one: As the elven woman is nearing the end of her speech, Ciri is looking at her and then at Geralt, her expression "is this bitch for real?"
Now players can decide if Geralt steps forward to defend Ciri, or takes a ceremonial bow, like he was thought by the Nilfgaardian butler (to Yen's amusement), and let Ciri have at her.
Choice number two: After they've dealt with the elven woman, I can only then understand CDPR's reasoning that Ciri would still be upset, that their racial profiling still gets to her, after all this time.
Now, we get to decide whether to ransack the place to let off some steam or just leave.
5. You have to help Ciri bury Skjall.
This was also very understandable, I'm perfectly happy with reasoning behind this choice.
6. Help Ciri support her friends by stealing the horses.
This is such a missed opportunity, but also a huge, gaping hole in consistency of making these breaking points. The whole thing is perfect as it is, it just makes ZERO sense not to include this as a relationship/character builder for Ciri. Probably easiest one to adjust, should CDPR ever consider doing it.
So there it is, feels good getting this out. Would welcome any comments and open to discuss further the possibilities.
I may have come across as too harsh and judgmental, but everything I did not mention or go deep into, I thought was incredibly well done.
If CDPR decided to "enhance" these conflicting moments with Ciri, it would complete my emotional journey with her in a 100% positive way. In fact, it would be so gratifying, the end with the White Frost would not bother me at all.
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