Combat in The Witcher 2

[mrowakus]

Combat in The Witcher 2

The Witcher was a great game. It had many features which distinguished it from the crowd. I guess we can all agree that with its approach to story telling, the unique, captivating, consistent setting, the interesting non-banal characters CD Projekt won our hearts over. Additionally, the overall presentation including magnificent, ambient art direction and truly unique and atmospheric music certainly added a lot to our experience.Nevertheless, however much we like this game I think there were still certain things it lacked. Truly, it had managed to achieve a lot, but while playing it I still could point out things which irked me to no end. One of these things was The Witcher's approach to combat.With its QTE nature (click at the enemy at right time-intervals) the game itself, the gameplay you might say, struck me as truly simplistic and deprived of any dignificant difficulty. It was too easy. I have to be fair here, the first act proved quite a challenge and the boss fight at the end was an honest-to-goodness masterpiece - you had to use your skills to your full potential to win that battle. Unfortunately, as you went on the combat encounters became more of a tedium than challenge. Even the boss battles lacked the spark in them. Unless you really did something wrong e.g. didn't quaff that willow potion while fighting Fleders or used steel sword on monsters, you pretty much won by default.Because of these observations I was quite pleased to hear that the devs were scrapping the system in favour of something different.And here I am coming at the point of this whole rant. After watching a few videos I cannot help but feel concern again about the way The Witcher 2 will handle combat. You see, to me it still looks very simplistic and rather boring with those hacking and slashing like mad.But I told myself, "Nah, I'll wait for the final product. It must have some potential in it." So I waited... until today. Because today I read this interview at ausgamers.com... http://www.ausgamers.com/features/read/3021872... in which Tomasz Gop, a persona well known to us, said this

There was a lot of feedback on the combat from The Witcher 1, so obviously with that there was a lot of things we could do about it; there were actually two main reasons why combat is so different in The Witcher 2 - the first one was a lot of people thought it was too hardcore [and] as you mentioned a lot of people actually had to take an effort to learn it and some people didn’t want to do that because they’re not into combat, they’re into story.

Too hardcore? :/ Where do I ask? Where was it too hardcore? Even on the highest difficulty setting The Witcher was anything but hardcore. Scratch that, it was anything than hard. It was was rather easy. I can't be the only one feeling that way. After all, we have things like Flash Mod or Full Combat Rebalance Mod Surely their createors didn't thought combat in The Witcher 'too hardcore'.Is Tomasz here telling us that the combat in The Witcher 2 will be even easier? Why? I know they are concerned about new players and those gamers who are interested in the story... but frankly, if the Witcher gets any easier it will start playing itself.I am not hostile towards great stories but I am towards poor, boring gameplay... and killing monsters in the Witcher 2 appears to be the mainstay of gameplay as all the skills player acquires revolve about this aspect of game - You will use swords, magic and alchemy to rid the world out of monsters after all. As far as I know there will be no 'social' or 'technical' skills beyond that, you know, the ones which you could use in dialogues like 'Diplomacy' or 'Appraise' in NWN2, or 'speech' and 'science' in Fallout. Correct me if I am wrong.Moreover, from my point of view, if anything, too easy combat actually detracts from experience of the story. It is hard to feel any sense of accomplishment, any sense of attatchment to what just transpired in battle when you opponent had been merely an obstacle wasting your time, but even then dying inevitably. By the same token, good, well design, interesting and challenging combat can be a maginificent means of storytelling. I still fondly remember my first encounter with Shadow Dragon in Baldur's Gate 2 or the battle with the circle of wizards called 'The Six' in Betrayal at Krondor. Those opponents had an in-setting explanation to their tremendous power and indeed they proved to wield it with skill. What is more important, the respective games boasted really captivating combat systems in which even fighting regular enemies didn't feel like killing 'trash mobs'. In both these instances, it took me a few tries before I bested my foes but the sense of achievement was tremenedous. Why take that away from the player in the name 'telling the story'? You are sure you want that? Even if the story gets damaged by it, and achives only a fraction of what it could have?In conclusion, I must say I am not very happy with the direction CD Projekt has employed as far as combat in The Witcher 2 is concerned. To me more could have been done to enhance the player's experience in this particular facet.I am aware that my views may prove somewhat controversial to some of the other forum members. Therefore, I invite everyone to discussion. What significance should combat have in the Witcher 2 and how can you see it work? Can combat in the Witcher 2 enhance the storytelling experience, or do you fear it will detract from it?

 

[grregg]

I would point out that the second part of the paragraph you quote is:"... but on the other hand we wanted to keep the complexity for all those [who] want to master the combat. So it is hard to master, there are a lot of tactics that the whole character development contains; unique gameplay oriented skills that you might actually want to do."Not good enough?

 

[Flash]

Devs never play on high difficulties on conferences, usually they have difficulty cooked specifically for presentation to ensure they won't die. Imagine that - highest difficulty, dev dies, loading screen and replay of whole presentation. It's a waste of time and definitely lack of professionalism.And game balance is never trully finished topic. You can always improve something and it takes years to properly balance a game (take a look at Starcraft and Warcraft and dozens of patches). Combat in RPGs is polished until game hits gold.As for TW2 combat mechanics, it's said that you can jush mash one button to win on lowest difficulty, but you need to dodge, parry and use other stuff to win on highest difficulty. That's what Tomek meant - easy to learn, hard to master. Easier but harder.

 

[exuro89]

I don't think he's referring to hardcore the same way as you are. From what it sounds like you're taking one or two quotes and going a little overboard.The Witcher 2's combat system is much more complex than the first. I don't see how you think being able to link strong, weak and magic's together in fluid combos is more simple and easy than The Witcher's rhythm click combat. A few sites have actually gotten to play the game and posted their impressions."For a game with such a strong narrative focus, the fluidity of the combat is incredibly impressive."http://raidingparty.net/featured/the-witcher-2-immersive-exciting-and-visually-spectacular-our-exhaustive-hands-on-verdict/" It looks terrific, with much more visceral combat replacing the original point-and-click ballet."http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/02/21/the-witcher-2-hands-on-with-a-succubus/Sounds like the reviewers are enjoying this combat system much more than the last. I much prefer being able to switch between weak and strong attacks rather than changing stances, screwing up combos and such.

 

[mrowakus]

I would point out that the second part of the paragraph you quote is:"... but on the other hand we wanted to keep the complexity for all those [who] want to master the combat. So it is hard to master, there are a lot of tactics that the whole character development contains; unique gameplay oriented skills that you might actually want to do."Not good enough?

Yes, there is this part. But to be honest with you I remember hearing something like that before Witcher 1 was released. Unfortunately, there was nothing like that in The Witcher 1. The so called 'tactics' was not really tactics. Not to use a fire spell on a fire monster is not tactics. To fall back when you are low on hp and wait till your bar is regenerated is not tactics, To dodge when you are attacked is not tactics. These are all common sense. Or compulsive, repetetive behaviour enhacing nothing but the sense of tedium. Btw, these examples are all I could infere from available TW 2 videos.Tactics should be more about behaviour in combat when you know you have no chance of escaping (e.g. to regenerate you hp). So using a eye-blinding bomb to buy yourself 2-3 free hits is tactics (especially when surrounded). Positioning yourself in a staircase so you face one opponent at a time, and cannot be backstabbed is tactics. Slashing group style at you opponents to buy yourself some space free of enemy attacks is tactics, in particular if you could next chain a nonlethal but crippling attack towards one of your foes which could render him powerless for a few seconds consequently 'offing' him/it from combat. Damn shame it was never anything like that in TW1 and it doesn't look it will be the case in TW 2. You see, I would like to once see all the tactics in actual action. In a game-video or in a commentary by a dev. That would be quite cool.As it is the videos available online also indicate that gameplay will be rather simplistic (I really hope to be wrong here).Example:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ravxVjnOoRMI see nothing all that hard in this boss battle. It is artistically impressive, but challenging? Hardly. Unless pressing button x in QTE can be called challenging.

 

[zax19]

Regarding combat I'm afraid that though the group style was removed we will still have to fight several opponents at the same time. In the videos there are 6 opponents and they seem to interrupt Geralt's attacks and movement fairly easily. I dread we will have something like Gothic 3, bad interruption mechanics, stunlock.I'd like to see less opponents (2-3 maximum) with such potential damage that positioning, evading and stunning. In games where the character wears heavy armour it is ok to take the hit, you're trained to not get distracted and keep your balance, but witchers clearly aren’t that type.My main concern is interruption and retaliation after a hit, if they manage to avoid frequent interruption by low damage hits I'd be really happy, 3 targets, constantly moving and changing targets to eliminate windows to attack, that would be great.

 

[Orochi82.186]

the ones which you could use in dialogues like 'Diplomacy' or 'Appraise' in NWN2, or 'speech' and 'science' in Fallout. Correct me if I am wrong.

Please don't put that in The Witcher. I rather make the decisions by myself, face it's consequences and I want to see all of the choices there, undependant of having a "diplomatic skill" to open up new choices.I like the way it is pretty much. Having different choices depending on the path you take, than having dialogue "skills". People will treat you in a different way depending on what you do even if you're the most diplomatic dude on earth. And that's the way The Witcher is. Geralt's reputation changes depending on his choices and people around him will act accordingly to it.Example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ravxVjnOoRMI see nothing all that hard in this boss battle. It is artistically impressive, but challenging? Hardly. Unless pressing button x in QTE can be called challenging.

The player uses God Mode (some sort of cheat) in TW2 presentations, and besides this looks like the easy difficult level. Gop made clear that the easy level will be only for casual players. People that like to delve into combat should go for hard mode first hand.

 

[mrbenis]

I'm just hoping that INSANE plays like Demons souls. Kill fast, die fast.

 

[Garrison72]

I think it's a bit of PR speak honestly. We can't begrudge him that; he's trying to sell the game. I kinda cringe when Gop says TW2 combat has "at least as much complexity as TW1" Ouch. TW1 does not have a deep combat system. What it does have is a great foundation for a tactical approach that is hindered by simplistic execution, ie: QTE based. I will never quite understand CD red's fascination with QTE's...but that's another topic. So the op is right. With few exceptions, combat in TW1 is anything but hardcore. It's very simple, and the most one-dimensional aspect of the game.Having said that, I think combat in TW2 'looks' much more promising. let's keep in mind they aren't going to stick journalists with hard mode for previews, or I doubt they would. They also have said things that are encouraging: ripostes, combos, timing your attack, blocking, throwing daggers, strategic bomb placement, etc... It could end up being a great combat system and if it's not evident by now, I really hope it is, cause this is where many RPG's fail in my experience. They just don't get fast-twitch combat right. ( ME2 being one possible exception)

 

[doglover]

this isn't an action game first and foremost, it is an rpg. what i've seen of combat so far(stealth option, fast and heavy sword styles combinated plus signs, bombs, an easy and fast dodge option, block and counterattack), i think you can conjugate all these options with one sentence: deep combat system. people are judging what they see, not what they know. the guys playing this early stages of the game are not using every element available to them, so what i concluded be seeing all gameplay footages is that combat may not be so "simplistisc" as people seem to be sure it will be. My opinion though

 

[sweeper41]

When Gop said the witcher 1 combat was hardcore I believe he meant that it took a hardcore gamer to really sat down and enjoy it.A lot of people was turned off by the combat in TW1 and I admit I was to at first but it grew on me.If you have concerns after watching all the videos maybe you should wait till after release and see what people say.

 

[mrbenis]

I don't think a player was being unreasonable at all if they stopped playing the game during the prologue for a few days. The adjustment over to TW1 combat from any other kind of rpg was pretty dramatic. It was QTE based yes but actually did it rather poorly tbh. I liked the combat for the visual side of it, not specifically from some angle of it being challenging or how quickly I could kill a monster (because let's face it, RPG pretty much demands you use an attrition model, there is no such thing as headshots to them)

 

[Orochi82.186]

I didn't had any problems with TW1 combat. First time I saw it and I thought: "That's exactly what I was looking for in a rpg". First it's really simple to time the attacks, and second the mocap is the best thing I've ever seen in a videogame.Third, when you evolve the character stats the attacks gets stronger, like a rpg.Fourth, it is funnier to time attacks then just point and click into a monster and see the game playing by itself, which is the case for lots of rpgs out there.The Witcher was pretty successfull into mixing old rpg elements with other modern concepts.

 

[doglover]

I didn't had any problems with TW1 combat. First time I saw it and I thought: "That's exactly what I was looking for in a rpg". First it's really simple to time the attacks, and second the mocap is the best thing I've ever seen in a videogame.Third, when you evolve the character stats the attacks gets stronger, like a rpg.Fourth, it is funnier to time attacks then just point and click into a monster and see the game playing by itself, which is the case for lots of rpgs out there.The Witcher was pretty successfull into mixing old rpg elements with other modern concepts.

i totaly agree and thats why I expect TW2 combat system to be great as well, because they know what they're doing. if they can make The Witcher 2 look that amazing, theres nothing stopping them from making a terrific combat system

 

[soldiergeralt]

hardcore=straight rpg style. point and click. no player involvement, not visceral, and ultimately, not complex enough.

 

[GuyNwah]

Old-style Northern European swordplay (as in Kunst des Fechtens) was about timing, speed, timing, strokes, timing, blocks, timing, footwork, and timing. For that reason, I don't see a problem with TW1's QTE implementation.I don't foresee a problem with TW2 either, so long as it provides moves that I can execute without having my own witcherly reflexes, allows me to react to my opponents' attacks and blocks, and preserves the importance of timing.What I could just as soon do without is grinding nekkers for XP and bog acid: better a few much more dangerous enemies that you have to approach or avoid with care. And the boss fights need better balance and both the need and opportunity to prepare for them.

 

[Eri94_user70]

How the new combat will be implented.By pressing left mouse button Geralt will preform Fast strikesBy pressing right Mouse button Geralt will preform Strong strikes.By tapping these in different orders (i.e. left,left right) Geralt will preform a special move. (in this case knock the enemy down)As there is no group style (which I believe is it would be overpowered in this game) when being surrounded you need to press another button, (shift) to block, (space) dodge or (ctrl) use a spell. (Thanx JayShadow)The whole idea not to be a ragdoll dummy bouncing around when people gank you, is to pick them off one by one and not be surrounded.Therefore, it will leave the right timing and now be more how you choose your strikes and in some way be more tactical since you can't just stay still and Group style everyone like in TW 1, but more combine with movements, signs and alchemy/bombs over the usual slaughtering. (Which is why I also hope alot of people will play it on a hard difficulty where you have to be smart and can't just take damage all the time)And as people mentioned, Tomasz state it as hardcore cause it's not limited to be a basic hack and slash. Personally I also find it to be easy, but I still enjoy the combat in TW 1

 

[topeira]

it seems like the combat is a lot more action oriented. they said so themselves that its much closer to batman:AA. for me that's a great thing. i have the un-involving automatic no-skill-required RPG system like in DA or many other RPGs. i want to feel like I am the one doing the combat and im the one responsible for my victory. i know many ppl preffer their stats to play for them but i can not feel more detached than with a RPG combat of that kind. ANYWAYS, what i am wondering is this - is blocking stopping all damage or just reducing it? this is a very important question when it comes to understanding how the combat and game will be. if the blocking stops all damage than this means that avoiding damage is up to the player. this means that a skillful player will be able to survive tough odds and rely on his reflexes to kill his opponents. if blocking is just reducing damage than this means that u need to level up geralt in order to block effectively. this means that the game will determine if u can survive a battle or not by how good your blocking stats and how strong are the enemy's attacks. if u fight a powerful enemy than there is noy much u can do (yeah, i know u can dodge, but that is not the same) to avoid getting damaged and u will die. if the blocking completely prevents damage than this means that in theory u can tackle and beat even the toughest monsters with some patience. the devs said the enemies won't auto-scale and that a player will die if he ventures into high level areas. if blocking prevents damage completely it makes me wonder if this is correct. personally i prefer if blocking prevents all damage. fighting against high level mobs means it is really hard, but it will reward my gamer-skills if i succeed. i want to feel rewarded for fighting well myself. this is interesting for me. i sure hope i will know the answer for this one....

 

[Eri94_user70]

Based on the small amount of videos we've actually seen geralt block, it prevents all damage from smaller/weaker enemies. Stronger humans make you loose little health but not that much when you block & running into big monsters and stronger monsters, can probably throw Geralt to the ground (and then rape you) which indeed means you can't just stand and block against tougher enemies.However (if I remeber properly) it still depends on which way Geralt is faced, so if in fact you are surronded by enemies and somebody strikes you in the back Geralt won't block it. I ain't certain about this part but this is what I think.

 

[topeira]

Based on the small amount of videos we've actually seen geralt block, it prevents all damage from smaller/weaker enemies. Stronger humans make you loose little health but not that much when you block & running into big monsters and stronger monsters, can probably throw Geralt to the ground (and then rape you) which indeed means you can't just stand and block against tougher enemies.

this sounds good if true. means that there is a value to dodging and blocking is not always enough. however games like ArcaniA made so there is only advantages to doging and no advantage to blocking so there is no real reason to block. you could just roll around all the time. this created a wierd looking combat that made little sense.i hope that TW2 will be balanced so most of the time blocking is the way to avoid damage but rolling is good to get of the way in dire situations.

However (if I remeber properly) it still depends on which way Geralt is faced, so if in fact you are surronded by enemies and somebody strikes you in the back Geralt won't block it. I ain't certain about this part but this is what I think.

where did u get this information from? in 99% of games blocking is omni directional. i was really looking for a game that makes the fact u r surrounded make a difference. if the games gives u the tools to face the attacking opponent so u can block enemies if u can read them in time than this will be awesome. two worlds 2 makes it so being attacked from behind will damage u but this games doesnt give u the ability to turn quickly so it is really really annoying to fight two enemies and u cant block who u want to block.in Risen there is a very different combat system but it also means u can block from the side\back and in THAT game it works pretty well (in spite of the horrible animations and character models).