Combat in The Witcher 3

[Aaden]

For me fencing does not represent a real battle in any way.Even the battles in medieval revival contests like Battle of the Nations are far from realistic.Why?
Because in a real life battle you want to kill the other person.Not pound him with a blunt sword or pinch him with a blunt rapier for points.You want to put your full force behind blows to smash his head or slash his intestines.

Swordfighting is more about leverage than force, especially so for long swords. So, no, you do not want to put all your force behind it. That puts you off balance and the gain in impact is relatively small. Besides, even light contact - just letting a sword rest on it with no pressure applied - can cut to the bone by just drawing the blade along. These things are sharper, lighter and faster than most media makes you believe for show effect.

The actually relevant difference between fencing and combat lies in a) the number of participants and b) the threat to your life and its consequences for your approach to the fight. In fencing, while certainly you don't want it, you might risk taking a hit. In combat, that likely marks your end and your upmost goal is to avoid that.

 

[BRANCHINGSTORIESFTW]

Swordfighting is more about leverage than force, especially so for long swords. So, no, you do not want to put all your force behind it. That puts you off balance and the gain in impact is relatively small. Besides, even light contact - just letting a sword rest on it with no pressure applied - can cut to the bone by just drawing the blade along. These things are sharper, lighter and faster than most media makes you believe for show effect.

The actually relevant difference between fencing and combat lies in a) the number of participants and b) the threat to your life and its consequences for your approach to the fight. In fencing, while certainly you don't want it, you might risk taking a hit. In combat, that likely marks your end and your upmost goal is to avoid that.

Maybe swords need less force to be lethal, but axes and maces must require a good lot of speed to damage.Also you're not heading into battle naked.So even with your sword you'll want to hit hard to penetrate armor.Also you want to hit hard the SOB you're an enraged zealot you're full of hatred for your enemy,so you want to rearrange his face,and that needs force. Of course we're talking about one on one combat.You're right about the self-preservation.
Anyway combat in movies is the best, when i watch fencing i am bored to death, and when i watch battle of the nations i laugh to death.

 

[Aes Sídhe]

I think fencing is great, I have often thought i'd like to take it up myself. I watched some guys doing it the other night during Culture Night Belfast event, I've had a quick look for a video but can't find one, here is a link however that could help you to find some examples for yourself (i'm low on time) if you're interested, I note they have a facebook page but i'm a conscientious objector to use of that rubbish.

Force is not the only way to win or even fight, precision is equally valid, and stamina would be extremely important in long battles, so on balance, depending on the arms & armourm I suspect i'd side with precision rather than force where at all applicable.

 

[Lieste]

Of course you are aware that fencing isn't just foil and Épée. Even 'modern' sabre fencing is a completely different style, and adding in the various fencing schools from the medieval and renaissance period and you get a huge variety of styles from 'sport' to butchery. Many of the older schools encourage tripping, kicking, hitting with the pommel or guards (to utilise the weight in the hilt area as an improvised 'hammer' rather than a much weaker blow from the blade).
There are fencing styles for fighting in harness (full plate armour), styles for poignard, sword and buckler, poleaxe as well as longsword schools for various types of sword length and weight.

Modern fencing comes from duelling in the later C18 and C19, with sharp weapons, so even the 'cute' modern styles are "fighting" rather than purely sport. The lighter swords are 'less-lethal' in that they need to hit a major organ to cause serious injury or death, but the loss of a point guard even on a foil can still lead to serious injury or death in sport fencing.

 

[BRANCHINGSTORIESFTW]

Guys my point is:where there are no severed limbs,no shattered heads,no hatred, rage and blood ,there is no combat, it ends up being some guys who hit each other with blunt pieces of metal and count points.Weapons were made to kill ,medieval combat was meant to be lethal.Thus fencing is not an accurate representation of combat and it'll never be as long as killing your enemy is banned.

So ,in conclusion, there are two types of combat:Real and Fake.Fake combat has two sub-categories: Movie combat and Fencing.Of the two ,me and most people enjoy more the fake movie combat.Therefore games like the witcher should have movie combat, not fencing.And thankfully they do.

 

[laughingjoker]

They're not, you're right, i used it to pinpoint the footage that irked me the most.See it for yourself on youtube,The dodge's just not free-flowing and natural

Believe me I have seen it many times, and it is a dozen times better than the roll from the last game.

 

[laughingjoker]

Guys my point is:where there are no severed limbs,no shattered heads,no hatred, rage and blood ,there is no combat, it ends up being some guys who hit each other with blunt pieces of metal and count points.Weapons were made to kill ,medieval combat was meant to be lethal.Thus fencing is not an accurate representation of combat and it'll never be as long as killing your enemy is banned.

So ,in conclusion, there are two types of combat:Real and Fake.Fake combat has two sub-categories: Movie combat and Fencing.Of the two ,me and most people enjoy more the fake movie combat.Therefore games like the witcher should have movie combat, not fencing.And thankfully they do.

That is a laughable, and ignorant thing to say about fencing, kendo, or any other modern weapon martial art. Look when a guy stabs you with all his strength using a three foot piece of flexible blunted steel, breaks your rib, impales you, or ruptures one of your organs get back to back back to me on what "real" fighting is.

View attachment 6404
Guy getting IMPALED!

View attachment 6405
Hospitalized

View attachment 6406
Sponsored gladious sword fight the wound from a "six point cut" nope nothing dangerous going on there...

 

[xanetan]

So ,in conclusion, there are two types of combat:Real and Fake.Fake combat has two sub-categories: Movie combat and Fencing.Of the two ,me and most people enjoy more the fake movie combat.Therefore games like the witcher should have movie combat, not fencing.And thankfully they do.

Uh, "fencing and movie combat" are definitely not the only two alternatives...

 

[BRANCHINGSTORIESFTW]

That is a laughable, and ignorant thing to say about fencing, kendo, or any other modern weapon martial art. Look when a guy stabs you with all his strength using a three foot piece of flexible blunted steel, breaks your rib, impales you, or ruptures one of your organs get back to back back to me on what "real" fighting is.

View attachment 6404
Guy getting IMPALED!

View attachment 6405
Hospitalized

View attachment 6406
Sponsored gladious sword fight the wound from a "six point cut" nope nothing dangerous going on there...

It's not that fencing isn't dangerous ,it is.It's about the intentions of the combatants.In fencing your photos are called accidents,because they were not intended to happen.In real combat I would be happy to leave with my leg cut six points deep than to leave without it at all which is the intention of my opponent.You see the difference is fundamental.

 

[laughingjoker]

It's not that fencing isn't dangerous ,it is.It's about the intentions of the combatants.In fencing your photos are called accidents,because they were not intended to happen.In real combat I would be happy to leave with my leg cut six points deep than to leave without it at all which is the intention of my opponent.You see the difference is fundamental.

Alright well the combat you are talking about never existed. Sportsman matches are very brutal, and dangerous things. It is the intent of the other party to win at the expense of the other. Same as ancient war, or duels to the death. Now fundamentally if you cut a guys arm, or leg badly you stop in a match with war being you finish him off. However the same methodology of actual fighting doesn't change when using those weapons to kill vs sportsman maiming. They both look the same. So real fighting is synonymous with brutal to the death fighting because that is how people learned to organize such disputes between each other.

Even war has rules, weapons design, fighting techniques, prisoner treatment, sieging, and battles to the death all reflect this. For example weapons for melee where often left with out additions that would have assured the more people died, and more horribly. Like the English agreeing to remove the teeth from their knives because the wounds would never heal for the victims, or the British calvary saber being changed to be less devastating.

Hell even in modern times we curb what we could potentially be doing to people in conflicts in respect for non "insane" warfare. Like for example the US direct preannounced bombing run as specific targets instead of just flooding the entire area with a nerve agent to kill everyone.

 

[B_l_a_d_y]

[video=youtube;mjT4JepA-Vc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc[/video]

 

[BRANCHINGSTORIESFTW]

Fencing is not realistic.

Real Combat is hell on earth it's not a sport for kids who have seen the LOTR trilogy the day before.

One is lethal,the other is kiddos with fake swords,hitting each other and thinking they're looking cool like aragorn.It is borderline pathetic.

No offence to any fencer on these forums.

Alright well the combat you are talking about never existed. Sportsman matches are very brutal, and dangerous things. It is the intent of the other party to win at the expense of the other. Same as ancient war, or duels to the death.

No you're just plain wrong, i am sorry .The athlete's intention is to gather points.The combatant's intention is to gather your intestines.If you don't get the difference ,we end this argument here, it has become tiresome.

 

[Aaden]

Fencing is not realistic.

Real Combat is hell on earth it's not a sport for kids who have seen the LOTR trilogy the day before.

One is lethal,the other is kiddos with fake swords,hitting each other and thinking they're looking cool like aragorn.It is borderline pathetic.

No offence to any fencer on these forums.

Saying "no offence" is no excuse when indeed you do offend.

Calling it 'borderline pathetic' or that our intention is to 'look cool like Aragorn' is offensive to me, to the awesome guys from Trnava linked above and all other martial artists.

Your misconceptions about HEMA make it impossible to discuss this topic. There are very dedicated people who work on the reconstruction of long forgotten techniques and their intentions are to bring back a piece of culture that was lost, to practice a martial art with all its physical and spiritual implications, and, yes, to have fun. The way you talk about competetive fighting in general makes me doubt that you have ever fought or even sparred in any kind of martial art.

 

[Lieste]

No. The intent to not kill or maim comes at the point where you select a weapon without edges, a dulled point and a blunt, and wear the neck and head protection, and sometimes body protection too (if the sword is predominantly used for stabbing).

The injuries occur when failures occur, where a blunt fails, or a gap is found in the protection. The 'sportsmen' aren't holding back, they attack all-in because it is "safe" to do so... most of the time. And people are seriously injured or killed when there are failings not in their restraint, but in the equipment.

The techniques, speeds and weapons used are very similar to those used in duelling, which was *intended* to kill or maim (or at least draw blood to obtain "satisfaction"). Duelling is illegal, murdering people is illegal, and probably considered undesirable in a leisure activity. ... so we see the use of head protectors and de-natured weapons. The hits are still really hits... unlike fake-o-vision movies, where everything is choreographed out the wazoo.

You quite obviously know nothing about what you are speaking.

 

[BRANCHINGSTORIESFTW]

No. The intent to not kill or maim comes at the point where you select a weapon without edges, a dulled point and a blunt, and wear the neck and head protection, and sometimes body protection too (if the sword is predominantly used for stabbing).

The injuries occur when failures occur, where a blunt fails, or a gap is found in the protection. The 'sportsmen' aren't holding back, they attack all-in because it is "safe" to do so... most of the time. And people are seriously injured or killed when there are failings not in their restraint, but in the equipment.

The techniques, speeds and weapons used are very similar to those used in duelling, which was *intended* to kill or maim (or at least draw blood to obtain "satisfaction"). Duelling is illegal, murdering people is illegal, and probably considered undesirable in a leisure activity. ... so we see the use of head protectors and de-natured weapons. The hits are still really hits... unlike fake-o-vision movies, where everything is choreographed out the wazoo.

You quite obviously know nothing about what you are speaking.

No until you've hacked human flesh and crushed bone you know nothing about real combat.The force you need to apply, the stance your body needs to be in ,all these details are lost when you go hunting for points.You don't get there to do damage,to kill.You go there to get points.Your mentality is different thus how you fight ,therefore everything. Also the threat to your life as mentioned above is not a factor.What remains ? Some fancy moves.

I am sorry about my previous post i did not mean to offend.I gave my honest opinion on fencing. I should have phrased it more politely.

 

[Zhyphix]

Fencing is not realistic.

Real Combat is hell on earth it's not a sport for kids who have seen the LOTR trilogy the day before.

One is lethal,the other is kiddos with fake swords,hitting each other and thinking they're looking cool like aragorn.It is borderline pathetic.

No offence to any fencer on these forums.

What you call "real combat" was not all savage charges of screaming barbarians and flailing two-handed axes like there was no tomorrow. Unless they wanted to die young, professional fighters spent all their lives mastering many and very different techniques, some of which have been recorded and can be reproduced today.

So those amateurish kids you speak of probably come very close to how warriors used to train back in the day, and replicating a real battle wouldn't be difficult if you started from there. Put one of these "kids" against a training dummy and you'll be able to see all the effects of your realistic combat.

No until you've hacked human flesh and crushed bone you know nothing about real combat.The force you need to apply, the stance your body needs to be in ,all these details are lost when you go hunting for points.You don't get there to do damage,to kill.You go there to get points.Your mentality is different thus how you fight ,therefore everything. Also the threat to your life as mentioned above is not a factor.What remains ? Some fancy moves.

I am sorry about my previous post i did not mean to offend.I gave my honest opinion on fencing. I should have phrased it more politely.

Fencing like what you see in the Olympics isn't supposed to be used during field battles, it's a derivation of duels. You wouldn't crush bones and sever heads, you would inflict fast and precise wounds to end the duel quickly and safely. And that's pretty much as it still is, with the obvious addition of protections and the obvious absence of opponents that wish to see you dead (hopefully). So it's really just a different style of fighting, not a less "real" one.

 

[BRANCHINGSTORIESFTW]

So fencing is a way to recreate training for real combat that's what you're telling me.OK i agree.But training for something doesn't look as the thing itself.Do you get what I am saying.Slashing a dummy is quite different from slashing a man,do you agree with that?

So slashing at someone without aiming to kill him is quite different from slashing at someone with the goal of severing his scalp.Is this clear enough?That's why fencing doesn't look the same as real combat .You can't recreate accurately something about killing(real combat) without actually killing(fencing). Everything ,from how much force you need to apply to your emotions and your mental state is different. It's that simple.

A blow that won't kill your enemy but just wound him could leave you open to a potentially lethal counter-attack.The fight doesn't end when you've hit your opponent ,you get no points.You need to kill him with your first blow that connects with his body ,it's no game .

For example ducking under a slash is rarely seen in fencing ,that's because hits are super quick and aim to just hit to get the points, not to kill ,but ducking in a real fight is generally a good idea.

 

[ReptilePZ]

Guys, guys... This is way off-topic and the "tone" is definitely not okay. Make out up and get back on the topic of combat in The Witcher 3.

 

[ilayoeli]

I don't understand why they didn't go for a hop instead of that damned dash, it looked amazing in the VGX trailer

Or pirouette, in FCR2 it actually looked kind of perfect

 

[ReptilePZ]

A post has been deleted (it's been deleted thrice now, that can earn you some formal warnings so try not to repeat it). As I said, please, stay on topic and try to be polite.

If you wish to discuss fencing etc. do so in a different thread or via PM.