Combat in The Witcher 3

[topeira]

I agree that it is not always easy to tell what is happening in the videos. Even though Geralt looks staggered he is still able to parry the subsequent attacks, so who knows.

That said, we do know that depleting an enemy's stamina breaks his guard and enemies are able to knock Geralt offbalance. So those mechanics are definitely at play for the enemies.

yeah. this stamina system is something i've never seen before. skyrim gave enemies stamina but not only you couldnt tell if the enemies are tired or not, it also didnt matter even if they were. in seems like it might actually play a role in TW3.

All in all, the combat in TW3, from the IGN videos (geralt fighting just monsters or just humans), looks pretty different from other games in a very good way. it isnt SOM, and it isnt ACU, and it even isnt TW2. it looks faster and responsive and great.
while it doesnt have the complex animations of SOM or AC:U (where each parry is precisely animated to connect and deflect) but geralt is fast and brutal and i just hope its as fun to play as it is to watch in short 90 second vids.

i really gotta see more combat. i gotta understand what im seeing.

i also am wondering what the player is supposed to be doing if the enemy is guarding - because it kinda seems (from the latest vids on IGN) that even if an enemy is guarding and parrying than you can just keep attacking him until he no longer is guarding and hit. i wonder if that's the case cuz it feels a tad shallow. i wish that enemies who are successfully guarding can sometimes knock geralt backward and force him to defend himself from a counter attack. just so you cant just attack a single enemy repeatedly until dead, but you need to REACT to the enemy that can turn a defense to an offense.
it does seem like enemies with a two handed axe CAN knock geralt backwards. i hope other enemies can do that too.

 

[thislsmadness]

yeah. this stamina system is something i've never seen before. skyrim gave enemies stamina but not only you couldnt tell if the enemies are tired or not, it also didnt matter even if they were. in seems like it might actually play a role in TW3.

All in all, the combat in TW3, from the IGN videos (geralt fighting just monsters or just humans), looks pretty different from other games in a very good way. it isnt SOM, and it isnt ACU, and it even isnt TW2. it looks faster and responsive and great.
while it doesnt have the complex animations of SOM or AC:U (where each parry is precisely animated to connect and deflect) but geralt is fast and brutal and i just hope its as fun to play as it is to watch in short 90 second vids.

i really gotta see more combat. i gotta understand what im seeing.

i also am wondering what the player is supposed to be doing if the enemy is guarding - because it kinda seems (from the latest vids on IGN) that even if an enemy is guarding and parrying than you can just keep attacking him until he no longer is guarding and hit. i wonder if that's the case cuz it feels a tad shallow. i wish that enemies who are successfully guarding can sometimes knock geralt backward and force him to defend himself from a counter attack. just so you cant just attack a single enemy repeatedly until dead, but you need to REACT to the enemy that can turn a defense to an offense.
it does seem like enemies with a two handed axe CAN knock geralt backwards. i hope other enemies can do that too.

Thats what I mean by enemies being able to knock Geralt off balance. You can see it in this IGN video:

https://youtu.be/McI_PbjqWsg?t=864

Geralt attacks the blocking enemy and is sent stumbling backward with some disorienting screen effect..

 

[zkorejo]

Have the shared a console controller layout for TW3 yet?

 

[Percival_Dickenbutts]

There are still a few things regarding parrying that I wonder about, like: will Geralt be able to parry attacks from any direction? Or just within a certain angle in front of him?

We saw that parrying caused Geralt's vigor to stop regenerating for a second, will another parry within the time-frame that the vigor is not regenerating drain some vigor? That would probably be a good way to allow Geralt to do quick parries from multiple opponents (which is appropriate for Geralt to be capable of doing) but still keep it balanced by forcing the player to then either go on the offensive, or try to retreat before his vigor drains completely.

Also I will keep asking until one the devs can give me an actual answer to this. Will Geralt be able to deflect arrows from the beginning of the game or does he somehow have to learn this for the fourth time "bcuz aaaRPeeeGeeee!!1"?

 

[Garrison72]

I'd like to know the circumstances where Geralt gets staggered now. Is it whenever an opponent blocks with a weapon? Or can they perform a special parry? Unlike TW2, he is seen hammering away at shielded enemies with no penalty. But he does get staggered a couple times against unshielded foes.

 

[thislsmadness]

There are still a few things regarding parrying that I wonder about, like: will Geralt be able to parry attacks from any direction? Or just within a certain angle in front of him?

We saw that parrying caused Geralt's vigor to stop regenerating for a second, will another parry within the time-frame that the vigor is not regenerating drain some vigor? That would probably be a good way to allow Geralt to do quick parries from multiple opponents (which is appropriate for Geralt to be capable of doing) but still keep it balanced by forcing the player to then either go on the offensive, or try to retreat before his vigor drains completely.

Also I will keep asking until one the devs can give me an actual answer to this. Will Geralt be able to deflect arrows from the beginning of the game or does he somehow have to learn this for the fourth time "bcuz aaaRPeeeGeeee!!1"?

Well, that IGN video starts right from the beginning of the game and he's already able to block arrows.

 

[Percival_Dickenbutts]

He doesn't deflect any arrows in the "first 15 minutes" video if that's the one you meant. He does in the GDC presentation which took place in the same area though, but we don't know if Geralt actually was level 1 in that video.

A simple "yes he can" from the devs would be great. If the answer happens to be "no he can't" I will keep my frustration to myself, but the answer would still be appreciated.

 

[Solid_Altair]

I'm joining the thread very late. I apologize for not reading all the pages.

Was there any discussion about dodge spamming? If not, I'd like to bring it up. Anyone else concerned about this?

 

[thislsmadness]

He doesn't deflect any arrows in the "first 15 minutes" video if that's the one you meant. He does in the GDC presentation which took place in the same area though, but we don't know if Geralt actually was level 1 in that video.

A simple "yes he can" from the devs would be great. If the answer happens to be "no he can't" I will keep my frustration to myself, but the answer would still be appreciated.

Ah yeah youre right, Im thinking of the GDC video where he fought those same guys.

 

[Garrison72]

I'm joining the thread very late. I apologize for not reading all the pages.

Was there any discussion about dodge spamming? If not, I'd like to bring it up. Anyone else concerned about this?

Doesn't appear to be any penalty for dodge, but keep in mind enemies most likely won't take turns to attack and you'll be facing large groups, ie; 6-10 at a time, as it was in TW2. Having a penalty for dodge in this system wouldn't work.

 

[thislsmadness]

I'm joining the thread very late. I apologize for not reading all the pages.

Was there any discussion about dodge spamming? If not, I'd like to bring it up. Anyone else concerned about this?

It seems fine to me, what is your issue with it exactly?

 

[Percival_Dickenbutts]

In regards to dodging I am fine with there not being a penalty to it, so long as parrying is a valid option as well, even against some monsters preferably.

In TW2 you could reliably use parry on normal difficulty if you resigned yourself to the idea that you wouldn't be able to use signs most of the time, because your vigor got drained incredibly quickly. This is part of the reason why the majority of players ended up dodge-spamming in TW2. Also because it was your only option until you leveled up, a classic case of character-progression being an obstacle to the fun you could be having. I really hope TW3 doesn't have that problem.

 

[Scryar]

The dodge sidestep doesn't have any penalty and I think that's the right choice.
The roll stops vigor regeneration for a short time and even drains a little bit of it.
I have to say after watching thr latest IGN videos I'm for the first time hyped for the witcher combat. It looks like a lot of fun and it looks like it would require tactics on higher difficulties.

 

[Solid_Altair]

It seems fine to me, what is your issue with it exactly?

I don't think it makes you OP. It just seems like the game forces you to use the dodge a lot and the combat ends up looking awkward. And it's not only about looks. It seems like consecutive side steps are a faster way of moving across "long distances" than regular strafing. So people end up using the dodges as regular footwork, instead of using them only as actual dodges (timed to evade attacks). Dodges should be a fast way to cover a short distance, with one dodge; but two dodges should be a slow option of covering ground.

So, besides moving faster by dodging consecutively, the player who uses dodges as regular footwork will also have the benefit of perhaps having one of his dodges working as an actual dodge against an attack he didn't anticipate. So... big incentives for dodge spamming, as oposed to using regular footwork and only dodge against attacks.

I guess the best solution would be making the dodge recovery slower, specially (or only) if the dodge doesn't work as an evasion to an attack. And along with it, maybe the regular strafing should be made faster.

But the dodges in TW3 already put a big smile on my face because they seem to not have i frames. As I said... they don't seem OP... they seem more like a gimmick to allow the player to handle overwhelming threats. Maybe they should tone down the threats (specially flanking) to a degree in which they can be handled without dodge spamming.

And it's nice to know that the rolls are different from the hops. I thought the difference was cosmetic. It's cool that the bigger dodges inflict penalties.
___________

And I appreciate the very mature engagement on the discussion. I've just joined the forums and after a quick look, it seems to me that this is a great community. For reals.

 

[topeira]

I don't think it makes you OP. It just seems like the game forces you to use the dodge a lot and the combat ends up looking awkward. And it's not only about looks. It seems like consecutive side steps are a faster way of moving across "long distances" than regular strafing. So people end up using the dodges as regular footwork, instead of using them only as actual dodges (timed to evade attacks). Dodges should be a fast way to cover a short distance, with one dodge; but two dodges should be a slow option of covering ground.

So, besides moving faster by dodging consecutively, the player who uses dodges as regular footwork will also have the benefit of perhaps having one of his dodges working as an actual dodge against an attack he didn't anticipate. So... big incentives for dodge spamming, as oposed to using regular footwork and only dodge against attacks.

I guess the best solution would be making the dodge recovery slower, specially (or only) if the dodge doesn't work as an evasion to an attack. And along with it, maybe the regular strafing should be made faster.

But the dodges in TW3 already put a big smile on my face because they seem to not have i frames. As I said... they don't seem OP... they seem more like a gimmick to allow the player to handle overwhelming threats. Maybe they should tone down the threats (specially flanking) to a degree in which they can be handled without dodge spamming.

And it's nice to know that the rolls are different from the hops. I thought the difference was cosmetic. It's cool that the bigger dodges inflict penalties.
___________

And I appreciate the very mature engagement on the discussion. I've just joined the forums and after a quick look, it seems to me that this is a great community. For reals.

i totally agree.
i think that a small pause between dodges will make them less beneficial than stepping around. but also decreasing vigor a tad and decreasing vigor MORE with rolls will mean that if you are waiting for your vigor to regen than you'd refer more to parrying.
in any case - parrying needs to have a good reason to be used. as of now it seems like parrying allows you to riposte which is a good way to open up an enemy, while dodging does not affect the enemy's behavior. this might be enough, but we'll have to play to see.
in any case, the IGN geralt vs monsters video where geralt doesnt parry at all and only dodges (i guess parrying doesnt work on monsters) shows how well the dodging animation works. there is a lot of dodge animation variety and unlike TW2 or AC:U or Dark souls where rolling is the only dodge, TW3's dodging and quick stepping seems so much more convincing and tons more graceful. instead of making geralt look like a gymnast awkwardly rolling around everywhere (which looked ridiculous, animation wise) all these quick stepping against monsters and enemies make gelart look graceful and more like a fast swordsman.
i think it's a wonderful achievement by CDPR.


Additional thoughts:
1. what do these grey small 3 trapezoids next to geralt's vigor mean? i see them sometimes go red....

2. it seems like you can draw your sword by clikcing a button and it's not automatic like with AC or SOM. if you dont draw the sword you automatically go into fist fights. you can see in the first 15mins vid that geralt first brings his fists up and only then draws the weapon:
https://youtu.be/McI_PbjqWsg?t=832

3. i remember an interview at some website that the guy from CDDPR said that deflecting arrows is a skill you aquire. you dont start with it. i dont remember what interview that was, but that's something i remember specifically said.

4. it's cool how enemy archers can hit their own men by mistake =P positioning FTW

 

[Scryar]

Anybody else thinks this looks awesome? (Edit: better version)

 

[thislsmadness]

@Solid_Altair I think the reason the dodge doesnt have i-frames is exactly because it can be spammed -- which may be a worthwhile tradeoff. There appears to be a nice distinction where human enemies are more reserved and slow to attack, while monsters like the Drowner packs are wild and more aggressive in their attack patterns. Changing the AI so that combat is more slow paced or so that they wont try to flank Geralt is not an idea I'm fond of.

There's also the question of whether the dodge is even the most efficient way of dealing with these threats. The guy in the IGN video really loves using his stamina to Igni the groups, but it seems like use of Quen, Axii, or Yrden would be more effective for dealing with the big groups.

Additional thoughts:
1. what do these grey small 3 trapezoids next to geralt's vigor mean? i see them sometimes go red....

2. it seems like you can draw your sword by clikcing a button and it's not automatic like with AC or SOM. if you dont draw the sword you automatically go into fist fights. you can see in the first 15mins vid that geralt first brings his fists up and only then draws the weapon:
https://youtu.be/McI_PbjqWsg?t=832

3. i remember an interview at some website that the guy from CDDPR said that deflecting arrows is a skill you aquire. you dont start with it. i dont remember what interview that was, but that's something i remember specifically said.

4. it's cool how enemy archers can hit their own men by mistake =P positioning FTW

1. That is the adrenaline meter. It increases Geralt's damage as it builds up, it also acts as a resource for some powerful skills. You gain charges by attacking but you lose it if you are hit. I'm not sure how many hits you must land in order to gain a charge.

2. Yeah, it makes sense because the player needs to choose between the steel sword or the silver one.

3. I remember that being said about redirecting a deflected arrow. I'm not sure about regular deflection, you could be correct.

 

[Kinley]

Anybody else thinks this looks awesome? (Edit: better version)

So excited for Witcher 3 combat!

 

[topeira]

Anybody else thinks this looks awesome? (Edit: better version)

it does. it definitely does.
i wasnt expecting much from the combat aspect, as i wasnt a huge fan of the combat in TW2. i mean, it was fine but combat mechanics have drastically evolved since TW2 and i wasnt sure how progressed the combat in TW3 will be. now that im seeing it it DOES look like its up with the times and even better than some other combat systems. parrying animation is shallow\simple compared to SOM or AC but its good enough.

 

[Solid_Altair]

@Solid_Altair I think the reason the dodge doesnt have i-frames is exactly because it can be spammed -- which may be a worthwhile tradeoff. There appears to be a nice distinction where human enemies are more reserved and slow to attack, while monsters like the Drowner packs are wild and more aggressive in their attack patterns. Changing the AI so that combat is more slow paced or so that they wont try to flank Geralt is not an idea I'm fond of.

There's also the question of whether the dodge is even the most efficient way of dealing with these threats. The guy in the IGN video really loves using his stamina to Igni the groups, but it seems like use of Quen, Axii, or Yrden would be more effective for dealing with the big groups.

I wouldn't really go about changing the AI. It'd be more about decreasing the HP, damage or amount of enemies that are great at flanking, so you have a good chance of nuking them before they can trap you... a little bit like SOM's Ghûls. Then we wouldn't need dodge spam to have a chance against them.

About the spells... yeah... I found it a little weird that the guy used Igni a lot. Maybe he had upgraded it and not the others. But even with the Signs, there will be a cooldown and the hops will be the best way to keep you safe and regen the cooldown quickly.

I wonder if there should be a separate guard bar, to limit the parries without affecting the use of signs. If you'd string them in a good pace, your signs wouldn't slow down, while your parries would still be somehow limited (by their own bar).
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@Scryar "Anybody else thinks this looks awesome?"

Yes, it does. Specially because he gets hit during that dodge. In some other games, he would have become a ghost in that momment.